Anonymous wrote:"YES! Agree completely. And do you think that your BF is a backwards, bizarre, 1950s, Donna Reed who is being entirely unfair to her husband??? I hope not - and I would think not, since you find her worthy to be a BF. And yes, I am like her in that I would resent being away from my DCs 40 hrs a week, but not like her in the exercise/maintenance =) "

No, of course I don't think my BF is bizarre. I think she found someone whose ideas of family life match hers very well. I'm pretty sure her husband is proud or something that she doesn't have to work, and didn't, even when he was unemployed for a long stretch. They are both from well off families, both had moms who SAH and did the charity circuit. She was the quintessential B student in school, reasonably smart but not driven. I'm just an entirely different animal.

You are an entirely different animal as in you are smarter and more driven, you mean? Wow, you even threw your BF under the bus.
Not all SAHMs do so because they lack smarts or ambition. Please understand this.

Anonymous wrote:"and if SAH moms drink and are lazy, then what about WOH moms?
are they all selfish, feed their kids fast food, and their kids are all destined to have issues when older?

yes, we can all play this game. "

Selfish? Probably, but it has little to do with my WOH. My kids eat fast food about once a month as a treat. My kids ARE older so not quite sure what issues I should be looking for.

I was the PP.. no, I don't honestly think these things of WOH moms, but I was just pointing out the jabs that can be made the other way.

Anonymous wrote:I think that at least some of these jabs at SAH moms really are about class envy. In my heart of hearts--and I don't feel proud of this assumption--but when I see lexus SUV driving, well educated, well coiffed, SAH moms hitting the gym for their yoga class, I realize that there is a part of me that is simply envious about the economic freedom that choice seems to represent. Its not that I want to SAH (and not that I resent DH because he doesn't make enough for me to SAH), its that the choice to SAH seems to represent a fair amount of economic freedom. I know that is not the case--that in some families there is a real financial sacrifice (and in some cases it is a wash--in mine, my salary is not much greater than my childcare costs)--but I think that what fuels some of the jabs at SAH mothers (really the dads dont get this much criticism lobbed at them) it's not really about them conforming to some stereotype so much as it is about money. so yeah, if I were to be dismissive of a SAHM, its not because I don't respect her choice--its probably because I'm envious that she had the choice and I don't.

Don't be envious. SAH isn't that great. I could have chosen to SAH but didn't like it.

"and if SAH moms drink and are lazy, then what about WOH moms?
are they all selfish, feed their kids fast food, and their kids are all destined to have issues when older?

yes, we can all play this game. "

Selfish? Probably, but it has little to do with my WOH. My kids eat fast food about once a month as a treat. My kids ARE older so not quite sure what issues I should be looking for.

I think that at least some of these jabs at SAH moms really are about class envy. In my heart of hearts--and I don't feel proud of this assumption--but when I see lexus SUV driving, well educated, well coiffed, SAH moms hitting the gym for their yoga class, I realize that there is a part of me that is simply envious about the economic freedom that choice seems to represent. Its not that I want to SAH (and not that I resent DH because he doesn't make enough for me to SAH), its that the choice to SAH seems to represent a fair amount of economic freedom. I know that is not the case--that in some families there is a real financial sacrifice (and in some cases it is a wash--in mine, my salary is not much greater than my childcare costs)--but I think that what fuels some of the jabs at SAH mothers (really the dads dont get this much criticism lobbed at them) it's not really about them conforming to some stereotype so much as it is about money. so yeah, if I were to be dismissive of a SAHM, its not because I don't respect her choice--its probably because I'm envious that she had the choice and I don't.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"What I did not realize was that my choice was not made in a vacuum. My choice had a profound impact on my DH and it altered his ability to be focused as a husband and a father. He was more focused on “providing” for the kids and not as much on being a “father” to them. As a result, our priorities became mis-aligned and we had some serious problems - we were separated for 6 months and the SAH issue was a major contributing factor. We are doing much better but it took counseling and sacrifice on both our parts. "

Career WOHM here. I am astounded you didn't realize your choice was not being made in a vacuum. Didn't you talk constantly to your DH about this major lifestyle choice? DH and I agreed about a month into our relationship that he would feel too much pressure to ever be the sole breadwinner, and I agreed for myself. That was long before we got engaged!

You might want to read my earlier post for some context - it is the one with the "cautionary tale." But the bottom line was that, like the PP I was responding to, I was so hell-bent on SAH that nothing else mattered.

Being so hell bent on SAH is an honest explanation, but shockingly short sighted.

Anonymous wrote:"and for those who say SAH moms don't contribute to society are really clueless. i spend majority of my free time doing work (unpaid) for a domestic violence organization and also take on probono cases for battered women. my "free" time is usually when the kids are in bed at 9pm, so yes, my days are long. many of my SAH mom also do similar things with their education, whether it's former teachers tutoring, or CPA's doing probono tax work for organizations. i feel like i am contributing more to society now than when i was receiving a paycheck."

The problem with this argument is that I volunteer too, plus work full time.

this wasn't an argument.. it was that SAH moms can also contribute to society.
Good for you that you also volunteer!
You get double brownie points.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"However, one reason why this is NOT the 50s is that the expectation that one salary (whether a man or a woman's) is enough to provide for a middle class existence is no longer valid for most of us. While the top 1 percent have gotten fabulously rich in the past 30 years, real wages and standard of living has stayed flat or dropped for most workers, while the relative cost of education, childcare, and other stuff has gone way up. One mid range salary used to cut it, now it doesn't. A rising tide in this case has lifted a few boats really really high, but the rest of the boats have started to sink...."

But we're still stuck in the '50s, because I get criticized, sometimes to my face, for my choice to continue to WOH even though my husband makes over $200,000 a year. I work not because I have to, but because I have the education, drive and legal right to work rather than SAH and drink in the afternoons.

Good for you!! You have a right to make whatever choice makes you and your family the happiest! But WHY, in the same breath that you defend your right, do you have to turn around and insult SAHs? I don't drink! What a terrible generalization. This is exactly what I am talking about!

I re-read my post, and realize why you took it that way. My mother was a SAHM who was happy until her children got older, and then she began drinking in the afternoons. I do NOT think SAH = alcoholism. I might well drink more than is good for me if I SAH though.

yeah.. right.

and if SAH moms drink and are lazy, then what about WOH moms?
are they all selfish, feed their kids fast food, and their kids are all destined to have issues when older?

yes, we can all play this game.

"and for those who say SAH moms don't contribute to society are really clueless. i spend majority of my free time doing work (unpaid) for a domestic violence organization and also take on probono cases for battered women. my "free" time is usually when the kids are in bed at 9pm, so yes, my days are long. many of my SAH mom also do similar things with their education, whether it's former teachers tutoring, or CPA's doing probono tax work for organizations. i feel like i am contributing more to society now than when i was receiving a paycheck."

The problem with this argument is that I volunteer too, plus work full time.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"However, one reason why this is NOT the 50s is that the expectation that one salary (whether a man or a woman's) is enough to provide for a middle class existence is no longer valid for most of us. While the top 1 percent have gotten fabulously rich in the past 30 years, real wages and standard of living has stayed flat or dropped for most workers, while the relative cost of education, childcare, and other stuff has gone way up. One mid range salary used to cut it, now it doesn't. A rising tide in this case has lifted a few boats really really high, but the rest of the boats have started to sink...."

But we're still stuck in the '50s, because I get criticized, sometimes to my face, for my choice to continue to WOH even though my husband makes over $200,000 a year. I work not because I have to, but because I have the education, drive and legal right to work rather than SAH and drink in the afternoons.

Good for you!! You have a right to make whatever choice makes you and your family the happiest! But WHY, in the same breath that you defend your right, do you have to turn around and insult SAHs? I don't drink! What a terrible generalization. This is exactly what I am talking about!

I re-read my post, and realize why you took it that way. My mother was a SAHM who was happy until her children got older, and then she began drinking in the afternoons. I do NOT think SAH = alcoholism. I might well drink more than is good for me if I SAH though.

But we're still stuck in the '50s, because I get criticized, sometimes to my face, for my choice to continue to WOH even though my husband makes over $200,000 a year. I work not because I have to, but because I have the education, drive and legal right to work rather than SAH and drink in the afternoons.

But we don't drink too close to carpool time.

Anonymous wrote:"What I did not realize was that my choice was not made in a vacuum. My choice had a profound impact on my DH and it altered his ability to be focused as a husband and a father. He was more focused on “providing” for the kids and not as much on being a “father” to them. As a result, our priorities became mis-aligned and we had some serious problems - we were separated for 6 months and the SAH issue was a major contributing factor. We are doing much better but it took counseling and sacrifice on both our parts. "

Career WOHM here. I am astounded you didn't realize your choice was not being made in a vacuum. Didn't you talk constantly to your DH about this major lifestyle choice? DH and I agreed about a month into our relationship that he would feel too much pressure to ever be the sole breadwinner, and I agreed for myself. That was long before we got engaged!

You might want to read my earlier post for some context - it is the one with the "cautionary tale." But the bottom line was that, like the PP I was responding to, I was so hell-bent on SAH that nothing else mattered.

wow, this thread has turned really ugly. i agree that i find the jabs at SAH moms insulting. i have many friends who also SAH and none of them are lazy. how can you be lazy when you have 3 kids, you driving them around, making them meals, teaching them to read, taking them to the park and doing other "worthless" things like wiping their noses, giving them baths, reading to them, etc.

in fact, the SAH moms in this area have my respect. they are all educated, had careers, but decided to give it up to be with their kids. doesn't mean that some of them aren't going back to work. it was very very hard for me to give up a job to stay home with my kids but three years into it, i see the rewards and i don't have any regrets.

and for those who say SAH moms don't contribute to society are really clueless. i spend majority of my free time doing work (unpaid) for a domestic violence organization and also take on probono cases for battered women. my "free" time is usually when the kids are in bed at 9pm, so yes, my days are long. many of my SAH mom also do similar things with their education, whether it's former teachers tutoring, or CPA's doing probono tax work for organizations. i feel like i am contributing more to society now than when i was receiving a paycheck.

To the PP who's so offended by my use of the term "gender stereotyping": First off, when men start opting to stay home as often as women do, then maybe it won't be a gender sterotype. But until then, yes, it's somehow usually the woman's job to leave the work force and stay home taking care of the kids and the house. (Because she makes so much less money. And I won't even go into why THAT'S the case.) And second, let's not forget what gave you your much-vaunted "choice": a husband. No man, no "choice". No wonder you're so defensive. Face it; some of us decided to stay home and our kids did great. Others decided to work and our kids also did great. Neither option guarantees a perfect outcome, as you will one day realize.

I sacrificed and scrimped so my DW could get a high powered advanced degree and join a lucrative profession, but instead she elected to go into public service I'm secretly pissed that that DW isn't making enough money so that I can be a SAHD.