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Anonymous wrote:Math is the only subject that has this massive genius expectation. It’s the only subject where people are constantly trying to push students to the maximum and accelerate them. Imagine how much better our country would be if we put 1/10th of this energy into science education.

Or reading/writing.

It's a stupid race to nowhere.

+1, can we get kids who understand statistics and history? This obsession with 2 subjects that are tested to death and the emphasis of your entire k-12 education is crowding out that there’s more to life than taking Linear Algebra in high school.

Forget linear alg in HS. Some of these kids can barely do Alg 1.

And that’s because of this obsessive thinking towards advanced advanced advanced. A significant amount of the UCSD students who failed that easy algebra 1 exam had taken “calculus” in high school. While kids have been performing worse and worse year over year, there has been a rise in expectations for elementary and middle school education across the country. We simply need to go back to the basics and make it required for the kids to understand the basics.

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Anonymous wrote:At my DC’s OOS school the kids getting into UCLA and Berkeley each year are not the top performers. Looking at the scattergrams many can’t even break a 1300 on the SAT. It is a head scratcher. The lack of SAT makes it much easier to create a narrative in your PIQs that will get you in. It’s insane.

THIS. Ever since they stopped taking SATs I've noticed exactly this. I've lost so much respect for the UC System. And I'm a graduate of that system.

How come UCLA and UCB are ranked in T20? I think it's after CA go TO.

Anonymous wrote:Without going professor by professor, it wouldn't surprise me to see that the very few professors who are asking for this are the MAGA variety.

University of California has over 24,000 faculty. Only 280 signed onto this. This doesn't represent the vast majority of faculty viewpoints and certainly not administrative or political ones.

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Anonymous wrote:Math is the only subject that has this massive genius expectation. It’s the only subject where people are constantly trying to push students to the maximum and accelerate them. Imagine how much better our country would be if we put 1/10th of this energy into science education.

The toughest part of the science is usually the math.

Tell that to physics. Math is the easy parts. It’s the concepts that make physics difficult.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Math is the only subject that has this massive genius expectation. It’s the only subject where people are constantly trying to push students to the maximum and accelerate them. Imagine how much better our country would be if we put 1/10th of this energy into science education.

The toughest part of the science is usually the math.

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Anonymous wrote:How has no one made a more comprehensive exam than the sat?

You mean like the ACT?

There is no incentive for testing companies to become more rigorous. The vast majority of students want easier tests. Selective colleges want dumbed down tests so they can emphasize holistic factors.

Caltech wants dumbed down tests? Stanford wants dumbed down tests? MIT wants dumbed down tests?

Yes.

Caltech and MIT are well qualified to write their own admissions test if they wanted one

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Anonymous wrote:Alarmed by rising failure and remediation rates, professors argue that test-blind policies obscure preparation gaps, leading vulnerable students to struggle in rigorous gateway courses.

https://ucstudentsuccess.org/

That's great news and much needed. Wish they had done so before this year. We're in-state and my DS wanted to go to a UC (he would have gone to any out of his top 4-5 choices). He has a 1550 but wasn't able to submit it because of test-blind. He did not get into any of his top 5 UC choices (he was guaranteed a UC since he was in in the top 9% of CA HS seniors by GPA, but only got into UC Riverside and UC Santa Cruz, which aren't great for his intended major). He is going to a private (to a so-called "new ivy") but we're frustrated by UC's test-blind policy and hearing how they have needed to create remedial sections for math at UC San Diego (where my DS didn't get in despite a 790 in math on the SAT and A in AP calculus). We are happy that it might get better for others.

Are you from an upper middle class area? If so, you likely still would have the same issue due to regional admission. UCs aren’t really made to be solely elite kids. That’s what private schools, like the ones your kid is going to, are for.

Actually, they are supposed to be for the academically elite. Community college, Cal State system, UC System, flagship of the UC system. This isn't a regional thing. It is a high school dependent thing. However so few blacks and Hispanics would be selected for UC Berkeley that UC's look at the HIGH SCHOOL instead of the general applicant pool.

Except opportunity isn’t equal across the state. You’d eliminate any poor person or individual born in a rural area from having a top education.

I think this is part of the political problem in California. There’s a lot of rural whites who don’t understand this yet, because they think whites are always superior, but who if admissions tests come back are going to be displeased to learn that the top UCs are effectively closed to rural whites.

This is a canard. There are not that many rural whites living in California. Rural students in California make up less than 10% of public school students. Of that 10% the majority are Hispanic. But keep up with your anti-white crusade if that makes you feel better.

It's like they think rural California is like rural Iowa.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How has no one made a more comprehensive exam than the sat?

You mean like the ACT?

There is no incentive for testing companies to become more rigorous. The vast majority of students want easier tests. Selective colleges want dumbed down tests so they can emphasize holistic factors.

Caltech wants dumbed down tests? Stanford wants dumbed down tests? MIT wants dumbed down tests?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alarmed by rising failure and remediation rates, professors argue that test-blind policies obscure preparation gaps, leading vulnerable students to struggle in rigorous gateway courses.

https://ucstudentsuccess.org/

That's great news and much needed. Wish they had done so before this year. We're in-state and my DS wanted to go to a UC (he would have gone to any out of his top 4-5 choices). He has a 1550 but wasn't able to submit it because of test-blind. He did not get into any of his top 5 UC choices (he was guaranteed a UC since he was in in the top 9% of CA HS seniors by GPA, but only got into UC Riverside and UC Santa Cruz, which aren't great for his intended major). He is going to a private (to a so-called "new ivy") but we're frustrated by UC's test-blind policy and hearing how they have needed to create remedial sections for math at UC San Diego (where my DS didn't get in despite a 790 in math on the SAT and A in AP calculus). We are happy that it might get better for others.

Are you from an upper middle class area? If so, you likely still would have the same issue due to regional admission. UCs aren’t really made to be solely elite kids. That’s what private schools, like the ones your kid is going to, are for.

Actually, they are supposed to be for the academically elite. Community college, Cal State system, UC System, flagship of the UC system. This isn't a regional thing. It is a high school dependent thing. However so few blacks and Hispanics would be selected for UC Berkeley that UC's look at the HIGH SCHOOL instead of the general applicant pool.

Except opportunity isn’t equal across the state. You’d eliminate any poor person or individual born in a rural area from having a top education.

I think this is part of the political problem in California. There’s a lot of rural whites who don’t understand this yet, because they think whites are always superior, but who if admissions tests come back are going to be displeased to learn that the top UCs are effectively closed to rural whites.

This is a canard. There are not that many rural whites living in California. Rural students in California make up less than 10% of public school students. Of that 10% the majority are Hispanic. But keep up with your anti-white crusade if that makes you feel better.

Anonymous wrote:Math is the only subject that has this massive genius expectation. It’s the only subject where people are constantly trying to push students to the maximum and accelerate them. Imagine how much better our country would be if we put 1/10th of this energy into science education.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How has no one made a more comprehensive exam than the sat?

You mean like the ACT?

There is no incentive for testing companies to become more rigorous. The vast majority of students want easier tests. Selective colleges want dumbed down tests so they can emphasize holistic factors.

Anonymous wrote:How has no one made a more comprehensive exam than the sat?

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Anonymous wrote:I am surprised so few of them signed this letter. Where are the rest? Are they happy with the current state of UC education?

You think 280 STEM professors at Berkeley isn't a lot? That's half the total STEM faculty.

It's 280 all over the UC system, not just Berkeley.

Not all professors agree with this. I don’t know why they’re recommending the SAT when the UC system was supposed to be developing its own rigorous exam designed by UC faculty.

They looked into the CAASPP as an alternative. The CAASPP is California's state-wide academic barometer test given to different grades, like 8th, 11th. The same racial disparities that afflicted the SAT were found in the CAASPP. The use of standardized testing is a very sensitive one in California because there is the belief that white supremacy has infected the entirety of how academic achievement is measured and that whatever path California takes has to be completely distinct from all past iterations.

The UC system looked at developing its own test but decided against it.

And that’s their problem. I don’t doubt UC admissions when they say they have data on each high school spanning decades. Developing their own test means an ability to accurately assess where the skill gaps remain in California public schools and having a quantifiable way to make recommendations rather than throwing out “x% of students failed and aren’t ready.”

Gaps will always exist, because income isn’t uniform across racial lines. We need to get past the inequality part and start solutions. The SAT is alright- it really leaves a lot to be desired in terms of rigor and substance over form.

It's more than income. Black students from the highest earning families score about the same as white students from the lowest earning families on the SAT. If you waved a magic wand and blew away the racial income gap, the SAT gap would narrow slightly but not disappear. The problem is more intractable than most people realize.

When affirmative action was around, liberals tended to support it because they were in denial about how big the gaps actually were, and figured it was just a small thumb on the scale. Conservatives tended to oppose it because they were also in denial about how big the gaps actually were, and figured URMs could just work a little harder to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Both were wrong, and the UC system is finding out the hard way.

There’s a lot of research showing that these gaps close when you have the white and black student in the same school. The gap explains a difference in choices by upper middle class black and white parents, not an inherent gap by race (which would imply black people are dumber).

One can spout all day about how these issues are cultural, but I find this unproductive and divisive. Everyone of every income level can do calculus I, as long as their brains aren’t pan fried by some intellectual disability. Learning algebra isn’t unique to white and Asian people; it’s something we should all feel comfortable doing, but don’t because we’ve been fed divisive lies about ability, talent, and yes victimhood.
-black person whose major required calculus in every course.

+1. Reminds me of a talk I went to by Glenn Loury

The only message conservatives have figured out to tell the black mother living off food assistant and public housing is “BE ASIAN! BE JEWISH”…are you serious? No wonder they hate you

I don't know about Jews but Asians generally think that a lot of academic ability comes down to effort and sacrifice. The people in America seem to think academic ability is inborn and color coded.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:To all those saying "don't bring back the SAT, just fix the education system!" - what specific reforms do you have in mind, and what kind of time frame are we talking? Because the UC system is bleeding reputation day by day by day... Tick tick.

The UC system is fine. I’m serious. Most posters here have no connection to California and obsess over prestige when it comes to the UC system. What they don’t realize is for decades the attrition was multiples of what it is now. Almost every student who entered the UC leaves with a degree.

Now, California has so many issues in its k-12 system that it find a perfect solution may well take a few decades. For one, we as a country messed up by making tracking illegal. But the quickest reform that could be made and financially supported (40% of the state budget is education btw) is holding students back. But to do that, we need standards in the first place. The integrated math curriculum needs to be eliminated. The UC system should develop a standardized exam in line with whatever new California standards are created. Invest more in a rural teachers program. Every school in the state should have calculus and other liberal arts advanced courses. Cities with schools that fail to deliver so should be threatened and show persistent effort in hiring. Give less power to parents and more power to teachers in terms of behavior. Evaluate grading with standardized testing performance and evaluate teachers with strong standard deviation issues. Raise the hell out of the bar for minimum “meets grade” and advanced achievement on state exams. Institute a minimum state exam score to apply to the UC system.

Graduation rates are up at UCs despite reading and math levels at the 8th grade level? That says something about the value of those degrees.

Academic tracking isn't illegal. Why would you say that?

Alabama started holding students back and standards improved and the number of held back students shrank to 1-2%

Rural education is important, yes, but inner city education is a shambles.

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Anonymous wrote:The SAT is a racist test. There is no reason to go back to it.

What makes them racist?

Anything where the participants (or participants who excel in it) do not represent the US demographics may be called racist by a segment of our society.