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Anonymous wrote:"The test doesn't matter" folks are out in force here. As far as I know, the University of Texas is the only school that has released data on the performance of test optional students, and they did not do "fine." There's a reason most top schools have gone back to test required. Performance on standardized tests are still the most accurate predictor of college readiness.

https://news.utexas.edu/2024/03/11/ut-austin-reinstates-standardized-test-scores-in-admissions/

The higher standardized scores translated on average to better collegiate academic performance. Of 9,217 first-year students enrolled in 2023, those who opted in had an estimated average GPA of 0.86 grade points higher during their first fall semester, controlling for a wide range of factors, including high school class rank and GPA. Those same students were estimated to be 55% less likely to have a first semester college GPA of less than 2.0, all else equal.

I wouldn't dispute their data but other demanding schools have had different results. The biggest thing to remember, though, is that TO could encompass a huge range of scores. OP asked about kids below 1400, which can include a lot of kids in the 1200-1400 range. I'm guessing most of those kids are doing well in college. Mine is. But I will concede that TO kids who scored below 1100 may be struggling more at really demanding schools. We just don't have enough data to know the range of possibilities so we go with our personal experience (which is what OP asked about originally).

Anonymous wrote:"The test doesn't matter" folks are out in force here. As far as I know, the University of Texas is the only school that has released data on the performance of test optional students, and they did not do "fine." There's a reason most top schools have gone back to test required. Performance on standardized tests are still the most accurate predictor of college readiness.

https://news.utexas.edu/2024/03/11/ut-austin-reinstates-standardized-test-scores-in-admissions/

The higher standardized scores translated on average to better collegiate academic performance. Of 9,217 first-year students enrolled in 2023, those who opted in had an estimated average GPA of 0.86 grade points higher during their first fall semester, controlling for a wide range of factors, including high school class rank and GPA. Those same students were estimated to be 55% less likely to have a first semester college GPA of less than 2.0, all else equal.

Anonymous wrote:My dh and I - and most of our friends- were above average academically. We also focused on colleges and test score differentiations blah blah. With the exception of several trust fund kids among us, most of us are doing well but no one is super wealthy, and we all work for a living.

The people we know who are very wealthy are 1. A plumber who started his own business and landed major commercial contracts. 2. my SIL and her dh who both got abysmal scores on the ACT but opened up a business that makes $$; 3. A guy who started investing in Brooklyn commercial real estate 30+ years ago.

This. It reminds me of the book “What Got You Here Won't Get You There” when I was trying to figure out what I needed to break through career wise. From what I have observed, in life it’s not a straight line where 1500’s on the SAT and high school GPA automatically leads to academic success in college, automatically leads to high performance on job, automatically leads to being very wealthy. When I look at who is the most financially successful in my family it comes down to being able to sell and/or own a successful business or being able to invest really well. News flash, SAT isn’t a prediction of those things.

Going a step back to who does well in college, in my opinion high school performance and SAT within a range has some correlation to college performance but it’s nuanced. As someone mentioned 1350’s is still 90th percentile. So if someone in the top 10% in SAT score and also top x% at a competitive high school attends college - they could still be doing well compared to someone who may have scored higher on SAT or had a higher GPA. Work ethic, time management/executive functioning, knowing how to study, knowing how/when to ask for help, class selection (balancing classes) are all things that make the difference that are within their control. While there might be a floor where no matter how hard you work and have a grasp on all those other things, you will be so far behind all your classmates at x college for all four years - that floor isn’t a 1500 on the SAT and 4.0 GPA. That’s why lots of people are posting their TO kid below 1400 on the SAT is going well in college and it could very well be true.

William and Mary TO students have been doing well. Wake has been TO for over a decade.https://news.wm.edu/2023/03/01/wm-extends-test-optional-admission-process-indefinitely/

Anonymous wrote:TO (1370) 3rd year pre-med at top 10. So far a few Bs, but nothing below a B. Mostly A-, B+. Very hard classes. DC knows it’s not ideal for med school admissions, but not terrible overall. Will have options. Has friends who scored 1500+ in admission who now have similar or even lower gpa. It all comes down to work ethic.

What is she actually majoring in?

Anonymous wrote:SAT<1200 is really not a college material. Real college , that is.

A 1200 is considered above average and colleges are full of successful students with SATs below 1200. And anyone who writes “real college” is douchey and slimy.

Anonymous wrote:My kids haven’t taken the SAT yet bc they’re in elementary school 😂 but are you aware that 1400 is 94th percentile?! And that about 62% of American teens graduate from college. Very few of them scored over 1400.

This board is not a good representation of real people or real life.

You are absolutely, 100% correct.

"The test doesn't matter" folks are out in force here. As far as I know, the University of Texas is the only school that has released data on the performance of test optional students, and they did not do "fine." There's a reason most top schools have gone back to test required. Performance on standardized tests are still the most accurate predictor of college readiness.

My kids haven’t taken the SAT yet bc they’re in elementary school 😂 but are you aware that 1400 is 94th percentile?! And that about 62% of American teens graduate from college. Very few of them scored over 1400.

This board is not a good representation of real people or real life.

My TO son just finished freshman year and is in no risk of losing his merit aid. Happy. Well adjusted. I know all the "tests should be required" people are just looking for some way to give their already privileged kids a leg up and they are also trying to justify paying for all those years of private school tuition, tutoring, and test prep. I guess it sucks when other people get the same (or better) outcomes without having to spend all that money (which was supposed to ensure that your child is "elite"). Oh well.

Ours has done well enough to enter the honors college at their university after admittance. High GPA. Is totally rocking it. 1300.

Fwiw I had an 1100 on the SAT, still managed to get into Maryland (back in the 90s), graduated phi beta kappa, summa cum laude, earned my Masters at a top school in my field and make a comfortable six figure salary. The SAT doesn’t determine your success in life.

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Anonymous wrote:Mine went TO to William and Mary.His best friend entered with a 1540 SAT. His friend has been struggling and mine is is doing well with a Business Analytics major and a time consuming arts minor. There is a lot more to it than scores.

+
My kids are doing just fine, even without top SAT scores.
They worked hard in high school, had well-balanced extracurriculars and leadership roles.
Their GPA was strong, and they took a rigorous course load. They are all attending selective colleges.

I believe success isn't defined by the SAT score—it's the grit and diligence that bring out the best in you.

Isn’t SAT an indicator of grit and diligence (the more you study, the better your do—?)

The logic is this:
Yes, there can be kids with grit and diligence who have high SAT scores, but not every low SAT score means a lack of grit and diligence, and not every high SAT score reflects grit and diligence.

Therefore, what defines your success is not your SAT score, but your grit and diligence.

Every kid I know who’s done well on the test has true grit. It’s not an easy test. People love to say it is, but it isn’t - it takes a lot of studying + the academic foundation. Some kids do have grit but do poorly and it’s because they don’t have the academic foundation. I agree it’s not an intelligence test.

I’ve seen a student with high scores but a poor GPA—definitely a smart kid, but he didn’t put much effort into his schoolwork.
He could be an outlier, but he fits into the category of “high scores but lacking diligence.

Perhaps he is taking more advanced courses that affect his GPA. Perhaps he is heavily involved in student activities or sports. Why, when you talk about GPA, the bar becomes 4.0 or perfect score? Whereas when you discuss SAT, the test score suddenly becomes non-important?

Or maybe he needs to work to support the family. Or he is neurodiverse so he couldn't focus so much on the classwork.

The most troubling issue with TO lovers is they use double standards in judging a kid.

Test score must not be a result of grit and diligence (or whatever standard they see fit).
GPA must be a result of grit and diligence.

This artificial dichotomy simply just don't follow the logic.

At the policy level, if test optional is okay, then gpa optional is also okay.

No. GPA is the only thing we have for academics here. In local high school, no one has ever cracked 1200 in SAT. GPA wise, we have about 20% students getting 4.0.

DC’s dream school is Yale, that’s a long shot so they won’t get their hopes up. They are applying to multiple t20 test optional schools, may end up going to one of those.

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Anonymous wrote:Mine went TO to William and Mary.His best friend entered with a 1540 SAT. His friend has been struggling and mine is is doing well with a Business Analytics major and a time consuming arts minor. There is a lot more to it than scores.

+
My kids are doing just fine, even without top SAT scores.
They worked hard in high school, had well-balanced extracurriculars and leadership roles.
Their GPA was strong, and they took a rigorous course load. They are all attending selective colleges.

I believe success isn't defined by the SAT score—it's the grit and diligence that bring out the best in you.

Isn’t SAT an indicator of grit and diligence (the more you study, the better your do—?)

The logic is this:
Yes, there can be kids with grit and diligence who have high SAT scores, but not every low SAT score means a lack of grit and diligence, and not every high SAT score reflects grit and diligence.

Therefore, what defines your success is not your SAT score, but your grit and diligence.

Every kid I know who’s done well on the test has true grit. It’s not an easy test. People love to say it is, but it isn’t - it takes a lot of studying + the academic foundation. Some kids do have grit but do poorly and it’s because they don’t have the academic foundation. I agree it’s not an intelligence test.

I’ve seen a student with high scores but a poor GPA—definitely a smart kid, but he didn’t put much effort into his schoolwork.
He could be an outlier, but he fits into the category of “high scores but lacking diligence.

Perhaps he is taking more advanced courses that affect his GPA. Perhaps he is heavily involved in student activities or sports. Why, when you talk about GPA, the bar becomes 4.0 or perfect score? Whereas when you discuss SAT, the test score suddenly becomes non-important?

Or maybe he needs to work to support the family. Or he is neurodiverse so he couldn't focus so much on the classwork.

Back in my days, students with humble backgrounds (FGLI) who has a low gpa get an opportunity to prove they are capable by taking LSAT and getting a high LSAT score. Some law schools will give you scholarship based on a high score. It helps many many young aspiring lawyers fulfill their dreams.

Some top law schools want high gpa high lsat. Some top law schools want high lsat, willing to cut some slack on the gpa side. Most of these very high scorers went on to become successful lawyers.

Slight divergence. Stop calling students lazy.

I was a high SAT scorer with mediocre grades a long time ago, in high school and in college I did not excel academically until law school. I got a 99th percentile LSAT and I graduated from a top 14 law school ordered the coif.

I was, wait for it, undiagnosed ADHD. I have diagnosed ADHD kids.

I am only weighing in to note that the high scoring low performing kids are not lazy. They are likely not well served by the structure of the school they are attending but doing well enough that nobody notices.

Absolutely diligence/grit matters. So do many other factors.

I also personally know a family member that got into Hopkins as a recruited athlete with relatively crappy test scores before test optional, really hard worker. They graduated Phi Beta Kappa in 3 years.