Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP - I feel like all the therapy hasn't done anything. When she starts to spiral she refuses to do any of the techniques that she has been taught. When she talks calmly with her therapist she knows all the right things to say, how to do the techniques and her therapist always says she is doing great.

She is just such a moody, anxious child and I know that my reaction makes it worse but there is just so much I can take before I lose it. It makes me hate being a parent.

While there may be other issues (and I would recommend going forward with a meeting with a psychologist for an evaluation), what you are describing sounds like anxiety.

When someone has severe anxiety and reaches a crunch point, rationality goes out the window and they may be unable to access appropriate techniques - especially when they are young. This will get better as she gets older and matures (although it may/will get worse during puberty). For now, firm guidelines and allowing her to experience misses (going to school with messy hair or missing breakfast) will get her where she needs to go (both physically and metaphorically - experiencing consequences and realizing that it isn't dire is how people, including anxious people, learn resilience).

OP - yes I definitely think she has anxiety. My husband does as well. I just am not sure if therapy is flushing money down the toilet or if we should keep doing it. I would like her to try medication but DH is against and I am not really even sure what kind of medication would help a 9 year old. Should we do more intensive therapy? In patient? More times a week?

No OP - do not continue on a path that isn’t working or go straight to heavy duty medication. There is specific therapy for child anxiety that focuses on parental reactions called SPACE. Start there. There may be more going on than anxiety but you need to start with evidence based therapies.

+1 on this. Talk therapy doesn't work with ADHD kids. The problem is that these kids have pre-frontal cortex issues and can't regulate enough to put strategies in place. When they're on medication and things start getting heated, they're able to take a beat and regulate enough to put some of the talk therapy in place. Without medication, you're just flushing money down the toilet.

You sound like a good parent OP, and I hope things get better. One thing that might help is teaching her daughter to braid her hair at night, so it doesn’t get tangled.

Anonymous wrote:I'm all in favor of getting a good in person therapist for your kid but, as she is just 9, your behavior/approach to her will have a huge impact on her.

And you are dealing with a sensitive, complicated child that a lot of the standard advice won't work or won't be enough.

I strongly recommend training/coaching for you, and the other parent, if possible. Specifically, look into DBT-C.

This. So much. The more work you do the easier managing her will become and impact other children less.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here - thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I am going to look into getting a neuropsych evaluation for DD.

We are moving to in person therapy which I hope also helps. Interestingly for those of you who think she has ADHD and not just anxiety - she doesn't exhibit any signs of being disorganized in any aspect of her life. Quite the opposite. Her room is meticulously clean, she has a daily planner for all of her school work, she comes home and immediately does her work, etc. In fact her sister is the opposite and her room looks like a hoarder of toys lives there. Perhaps DD does have ADHD but does not show any classical signs. I am not sure what to think now.

I think we are more pushing against the idea that it would be preposterous and impossible for your daughter to have ADHD because she does well in school and is organized as a 9 year old, not that she for sure has Adhd. Just be open-minded because ADHD can look so different in girls. Talking to a specialist is the right approach.

OMG just STOP. Seriously. ADHD is not likely in a child as OP describes her. I truly do not understand this mania to dx ADHD.

Prob because we have kids that behave this way with that diagnosis.

Anonymous wrote:OP this sounds a fair amount like my DD: tantrums, meltdowns, and yelling to various degrees almost every morning before school (minus the head banging). DD won't get out of bed for 20 minutes, then has a tantrum over something (can't find her hairbrush, the shirt she wants to wear has a stain on it, etc.) Then running late for school and I tell her to hurry up. She tells me to stop yelling, even though 99% of people would not describe me as yelling. It's awful and it makes me feel awful for hours after on many days. She was diagnosed with ADHD inattentive and anxiety several years ago. I know you're desperate for a diagnosis but frankly a diagnosis doesn't necessarily solve the problem.

This is our life as well and same diagnosis. Meds help slightly, good sleep and balancing physical activity/personal time for her really helps. Electronics make it worse. Variety and exploration/bonding time is critical.

But mostly sleep and meds (of which she needs for sleep). Magnesium and meditation podcasts to wind down.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here - thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I am going to look into getting a neuropsych evaluation for DD.

We are moving to in person therapy which I hope also helps. Interestingly for those of you who think she has ADHD and not just anxiety - she doesn't exhibit any signs of being disorganized in any aspect of her life. Quite the opposite. Her room is meticulously clean, she has a daily planner for all of her school work, she comes home and immediately does her work, etc. In fact her sister is the opposite and her room looks like a hoarder of toys lives there. Perhaps DD does have ADHD but does not show any classical signs. I am not sure what to think now.

I think we are more pushing against the idea that it would be preposterous and impossible for your daughter to have ADHD because she does well in school and is organized as a 9 year old, not that she for sure has Adhd. Just be open-minded because ADHD can look so different in girls. Talking to a specialist is the right approach.

OMG just STOP. Seriously. ADHD is not likely in a child as OP describes her. I truly do not understand this mania to dx ADHD.

Anonymous wrote:While it very well may not be ADHD in OP's case, I think it important to note that anxiety is very frequently the first diagnosis for a girl who is later diagnosed with ADHD.

Also, this article on anxiety, perfectionism, and ADHD may be of interest: https://www.additudemag.com/perfectionism-adhd-not-good-enough-anxiety/

not in a child who can be described as “extremely organized” the way OP has. if there’s any additional dx (and I don’t know why there would need to be - anxiety can explain a lot) it’s more likely ASD.

Anonymous wrote:OP here - thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I am going to look into getting a neuropsych evaluation for DD.

We are moving to in person therapy which I hope also helps. Interestingly for those of you who think she has ADHD and not just anxiety - she doesn't exhibit any signs of being disorganized in any aspect of her life. Quite the opposite. Her room is meticulously clean, she has a daily planner for all of her school work, she comes home and immediately does her work, etc. In fact her sister is the opposite and her room looks like a hoarder of toys lives there. Perhaps DD does have ADHD but does not show any classical signs. I am not sure what to think now.

I think we are more pushing against the idea that it would be preposterous and impossible for your daughter to have ADHD because she does well in school and is organized as a 9 year old, not that she for sure has Adhd. Just be open-minded because ADHD can look so different in girls. Talking to a specialist is the right approach.

I'm all in favor of getting a good in person therapist for your kid but, as she is just 9, your behavior/approach to her will have a huge impact on her.

And you are dealing with a sensitive, complicated child that a lot of the standard advice won't work or won't be enough.

I strongly recommend training/coaching for you, and the other parent, if possible. Specifically, look into DBT-C.

Op glad you are doing therapy in person. A therapist who actually meets with your child is going to have a way better idea of whether there is more than anxiety going on.

I'm sorry you're dealing w/ this. I have 2 kids with anxiety and it's hard.

2 things:
1) shower at night when she has more time. My 9 year old likes a shower to unwind at the end of the day. It's not that long--he'll stay in the shower for 10 minutes or so--but then he likes to just kind of sit there in the steamy bathroom wrapped in a towel for awhile and not be rushed.
2) wake up earlier. If you have to be out the door by 7:30, getting up at 6:45 is not enough time for your daughter. For me, I'd rather have the extra sleep and rush once I do get up. But not everyone is like that. It wouldn't work for my daughter either. She likes to take her time eating breakfast while reading a book. If I rush her, she gets stressed and anxious and we inevitably have a breakdown.

Do as much as you can the night before. Showers at night, get clothes you plan to wear out the night before, pack up backpack, lunch, etc. the night before. Even prep breakfast the night before if you're having something that takes longer to eat. We usually just have a bowl of cereal or yogurt/granola so nothing that takes time but if you're having something more labor intensive to prepare, see if you can prepare it the night before. Take all the "work" out of the morning routine that you can. And then get up earlier so there is time built in to your schedule if things take longer than expected (for instance, I know it takes my kids forever to get their socks and shoes on lol so I tell them to do this about 10 minutes before I actually need them to so I don't have to stand over them nagging about it or start helping them w/ it which leaves everyone frustrated)

While it very well may not be ADHD in OP's case, I think it important to note that anxiety is very frequently the first diagnosis for a girl who is later diagnosed with ADHD.

Also, this article on anxiety, perfectionism, and ADHD may be of interest: https://www.additudemag.com/perfectionism-adhd-not-good-enough-anxiety/

OP this sounds a fair amount like my DD: tantrums, meltdowns, and yelling to various degrees almost every morning before school (minus the head banging). DD won't get out of bed for 20 minutes, then has a tantrum over something (can't find her hairbrush, the shirt she wants to wear has a stain on it, etc.) Then running late for school and I tell her to hurry up. She tells me to stop yelling, even though 99% of people would not describe me as yelling. It's awful and it makes me feel awful for hours after on many days. She was diagnosed with ADHD inattentive and anxiety several years ago. I know you're desperate for a diagnosis but frankly a diagnosis doesn't necessarily solve the problem.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Someone up thread recommended SPACE therapy and that’s exactly what was recommended for our anxious child. I haven’t started it yet but I’m currently reading Breaking Free of Childhood Anxiety and OCD (a book that outlines the ideas behind SPACE) and it’s been helpful so far.

My child is extremely anxious and I had a lot of hope that SPACE would be helpful. We couldn't really afford the many thousands of dollars that the official program costs locally but I read the book that it's based on. It seems to me that it's really for specific types of phobias: social anxiety, situational anxiety, etc. My child has none of those. She has generalized anxiety disorder. So at night she'll feel a sense of terror but she can't describe what it's even about. You can't really do exposure therapy for that. Unless I'm misunderstanding the program, I don't see how it works for kids who have unspecific feelings that are very strong, but have no phobias about normal life situations. Has anyone seen SPACE work for non-specific anxiety for a kid who participates in daily life just fine but feels fear and dread every night?

I haven’t done SPACE but I have done a ton of therapy and reading for generalized anxiety. It’s true that the relevance of “exposure therapy” seems less clear cut for free-floating anxiety vs a specific phobia or a well-defined panic attack. But the key is exposure to the sensations and cognitions of anxiety and tolerating them, no matter what triggers them. For parents, how you respond to you child’s anxiety can make a big difference- depending on how you respond you can perpetuate the avoidance activities and the anxiety; or help the child learn to tolerate anxiety.

I know this stuff is way too expensive but a course of parenting therapy with an actual expert in pediatric anxiety could be life-changing for you and your daughter. Totally worth the money IMO.

Anonymous wrote:Someone up thread recommended SPACE therapy and that’s exactly what was recommended for our anxious child. I haven’t started it yet but I’m currently reading Breaking Free of Childhood Anxiety and OCD (a book that outlines the ideas behind SPACE) and it’s been helpful so far.

My child is extremely anxious and I had a lot of hope that SPACE would be helpful. We couldn't really afford the many thousands of dollars that the official program costs locally but I read the book that it's based on. It seems to me that it's really for specific types of phobias: social anxiety, situational anxiety, etc. My child has none of those. She has generalized anxiety disorder. So at night she'll feel a sense of terror but she can't describe what it's even about. You can't really do exposure therapy for that. Unless I'm misunderstanding the program, I don't see how it works for kids who have unspecific feelings that are very strong, but have no phobias about normal life situations. Has anyone seen SPACE work for non-specific anxiety for a kid who participates in daily life just fine but feels fear and dread every night?