Anonymous wrote:Move to Reston - 16 public pools for the community. Not free, but at $25.00 per season, it is doable.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is confusing. Why would Fairfax integrate everything else, but draw the line at pools. And, if private pools only allowed white people to join, I think we'd be hearing about this in the real estate forum.

Many of the pools your kids swam in this summer were built in the 50s and 60s, when black people were systematically prevented from living in your neighborhood. Literally not allowed, and it was legal to exclude them. DC had some public pools, and white people didn’t want to share them. They moved out to VA and built private pools. This is not controversial, it’s just history.

Today, yes, we have fair housing laws and our neighborhoods and pool memberships are more diverse. However, some neighborhoods and pools have old policies that might have had discriminatory impact even after desegregation if you were to look closely.

For example, there was a discussion in the sports forum on the differences between MCSL and NVSL swim team practices and policies. Did you know that NVSL recommends that teams NOT share seed times for competitive duel meets? MCSL makes that information available. Why the lack of transparency in NVSL? Why is it that swimming has such low participation by black families in NoVA? How many families tried to get their kids into swimming but were harmed by racist coaches and leagues?

Obviously, the kind of discrimination I’m talking about would have been more rampant in the late 60’s and 70’s. Today, we just operate old systems without looking too closely at why they exist. But thinking a little more critically about this won’t hurt, I promise.

Explain the connection between seed times and racism-- why black families would say to themselves, well, if I don't know what another swimmer's previous record for this event is, it's not worth participating.

Racism was rampant in the 1970s. But you've not addressed any of my points at all, so please rebut them so we can be on the same page about why neither climate, nor the actual rate of swim team participation, should matter. Otherwise we are just talking about racism that existed 50 years ago.

It is easy for a coach to hold back a fast swimmer from the “wrong” family, if their times are secret. If you are involved with competitive swimming, you would have some idea about how conteoversial seeding decisions (who swims what strokes at which meets) can be.

ETA: this is just a tiny example of why there might be a low rate of participation by black swimmers at the highest levels of the sport in this area. Housing policies and private pools definitely had the most historical impact. But even when those policies changed, it takes time to overcome the harm. If this area had built public pools instead of private pools, I imagine the racial make-up at this weekend’s NVSL all-stars would look quite different.

NVSL isn't considered a competitive swim club. It's a summer league, meant for fun, themed meets, and pasta dinners. There aren't as many black people in high levels of swim- true- but NVSL is just a rec league so this is a bizarre analysis. It's like saying that the racial makeup of your I9 peewee baseball league can be used as a proxy for professional baseball.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is confusing. Why would Fairfax integrate everything else, but draw the line at pools. And, if private pools only allowed white people to join, I think we'd be hearing about this in the real estate forum.

Many of the pools your kids swam in this summer were built in the 50s and 60s, when black people were systematically prevented from living in your neighborhood. Literally not allowed, and it was legal to exclude them. DC had some public pools, and white people didn’t want to share them. They moved out to VA and built private pools. This is not controversial, it’s just history.

Today, yes, we have fair housing laws and our neighborhoods and pool memberships are more diverse. However, some neighborhoods and pools have old policies that might have had discriminatory impact even after desegregation if you were to look closely.

For example, there was a discussion in the sports forum on the differences between MCSL and NVSL swim team practices and policies. Did you know that NVSL recommends that teams NOT share seed times for competitive duel meets? MCSL makes that information available. Why the lack of transparency in NVSL? Why is it that swimming has such low participation by black families in NoVA? How many families tried to get their kids into swimming but were harmed by racist coaches and leagues?

Obviously, the kind of discrimination I’m talking about would have been more rampant in the late 60’s and 70’s. Today, we just operate old systems without looking too closely at why they exist. But thinking a little more critically about this won’t hurt, I promise.

Explain the connection between seed times and racism-- why black families would say to themselves, well, if I don't know what another swimmer's previous record for this event is, it's not worth participating.

Racism was rampant in the 1970s. But you've not addressed any of my points at all, so please rebut them so we can be on the same page about why neither climate, nor the actual rate of swim team participation, should matter. Otherwise we are just talking about racism that existed 50 years ago.

It is easy for a coach to hold back a fast swimmer from the “wrong” family, if their times are secret. If you are involved with competitive swimming, you would have some idea about how conteoversial seeding decisions (who swims what strokes at which meets) can be.

I'm extremely familiar with competitive swim.

What you're saying- the coach's discretion about which swimmers to put in which events-- is separate from displaying seed times. You can choose not to use seed times to organize the heats/lanes, but it is impossible to hide swimmer performance. You gave the example of NVSL not using seed times-- but look, here is the entire league's time records. https://reachforthewall.org/summer-pools/Northern_Virginia_Swimming_League/

So you have to explain why not using seeding is racist. If anything, not using seeding reduces intimidation and bias by not making it obvious which kids have better records. When a swim meet uses seed times, you know which kid is "supposed" to win based on their heat and lane position.

So try again. NVSL has public records of their times for ALL their swimmers. There is no hiding. Now explain why this is racist.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is confusing. Why would Fairfax integrate everything else, but draw the line at pools. And, if private pools only allowed white people to join, I think we'd be hearing about this in the real estate forum.

Many of the pools your kids swam in this summer were built in the 50s and 60s, when black people were systematically prevented from living in your neighborhood. Literally not allowed, and it was legal to exclude them. DC had some public pools, and white people didn’t want to share them. They moved out to VA and built private pools. This is not controversial, it’s just history.

Today, yes, we have fair housing laws and our neighborhoods and pool memberships are more diverse. However, some neighborhoods and pools have old policies that might have had discriminatory impact even after desegregation if you were to look closely.

For example, there was a discussion in the sports forum on the differences between MCSL and NVSL swim team practices and policies. Did you know that NVSL recommends that teams NOT share seed times for competitive duel meets? MCSL makes that information available. Why the lack of transparency in NVSL? Why is it that swimming has such low participation by black families in NoVA? How many families tried to get their kids into swimming but were harmed by racist coaches and leagues?

Obviously, the kind of discrimination I’m talking about would have been more rampant in the late 60’s and 70’s. Today, we just operate old systems without looking too closely at why they exist. But thinking a little more critically about this won’t hurt, I promise.

Explain the connection between seed times and racism-- why black families would say to themselves, well, if I don't know what another swimmer's previous record for this event is, it's not worth participating.

Racism was rampant in the 1970s. But you've not addressed any of my points at all, so please rebut them so we can be on the same page about why neither climate, nor the actual rate of swim team participation, should matter. Otherwise we are just talking about racism that existed 50 years ago.

It is easy for a coach to hold back a fast swimmer from the “wrong” family, if their times are secret. If you are involved with competitive swimming, you would have some idea about how conteoversial seeding decisions (who swims what strokes at which meets) can be.

ETA: this is just a tiny example of why there might be a low rate of participation by black swimmers at the highest levels of the sport in this area. Housing policies and private pools definitely had the most historical impact. But even when those policies changed, it takes time to overcome the harm. If this area had built public pools instead of private pools, I imagine the racial make-up at this weekend’s NVSL all-stars would look quite different.

You haven't made the case that private pools are discriminatory. Let's take the Stonegate swim team as an example. For years, they've had one of the highest rated swim clubs in MCSL, at their private pool. And, they are less than a mile from the MLK swim center, a public indoor pool with a branch of RMSC. This is in a primarily black and Hispanic neighborhood. The swimmers are most white. Explain.

Are you saying that Stonegate is excluding black/Hispanic families from joining? If so, that’s a pretty serious accusation.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is confusing. Why would Fairfax integrate everything else, but draw the line at pools. And, if private pools only allowed white people to join, I think we'd be hearing about this in the real estate forum.

Many of the pools your kids swam in this summer were built in the 50s and 60s, when black people were systematically prevented from living in your neighborhood. Literally not allowed, and it was legal to exclude them. DC had some public pools, and white people didn’t want to share them. They moved out to VA and built private pools. This is not controversial, it’s just history.

Today, yes, we have fair housing laws and our neighborhoods and pool memberships are more diverse. However, some neighborhoods and pools have old policies that might have had discriminatory impact even after desegregation if you were to look closely.

For example, there was a discussion in the sports forum on the differences between MCSL and NVSL swim team practices and policies. Did you know that NVSL recommends that teams NOT share seed times for competitive duel meets? MCSL makes that information available. Why the lack of transparency in NVSL? Why is it that swimming has such low participation by black families in NoVA? How many families tried to get their kids into swimming but were harmed by racist coaches and leagues?

Obviously, the kind of discrimination I’m talking about would have been more rampant in the late 60’s and 70’s. Today, we just operate old systems without looking too closely at why they exist. But thinking a little more critically about this won’t hurt, I promise.

Explain the connection between seed times and racism-- why black families would say to themselves, well, if I don't know what another swimmer's previous record for this event is, it's not worth participating.

Racism was rampant in the 1970s. But you've not addressed any of my points at all, so please rebut them so we can be on the same page about why neither climate, nor the actual rate of swim team participation, should matter. Otherwise we are just talking about racism that existed 50 years ago.

It is easy for a coach to hold back a fast swimmer from the “wrong” family, if their times are secret. If you are involved with competitive swimming, you would have some idea about how conteoversial seeding decisions (who swims what strokes at which meets) can be.

ETA: this is just a tiny example of why there might be a low rate of participation by black swimmers at the highest levels of the sport in this area. Housing policies and private pools definitely had the most historical impact. But even when those policies changed, it takes time to overcome the harm. If this area had built public pools instead of private pools, I imagine the racial make-up at this weekend’s NVSL all-stars would look quite different.

You haven't made the case that private pools are discriminatory. Let's take the Stonegate swim team as an example. For years, they've had one of the highest rated swim clubs in MCSL, at their private pool. And, they are less than a mile from the MLK swim center, a public indoor pool with a branch of RMSC. This is in a primarily black and Hispanic neighborhood. The swimmers are most white. Explain.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is confusing. Why would Fairfax integrate everything else, but draw the line at pools. And, if private pools only allowed white people to join, I think we'd be hearing about this in the real estate forum.

Many of the pools your kids swam in this summer were built in the 50s and 60s, when black people were systematically prevented from living in your neighborhood. Literally not allowed, and it was legal to exclude them. DC had some public pools, and white people didn’t want to share them. They moved out to VA and built private pools. This is not controversial, it’s just history.

Today, yes, we have fair housing laws and our neighborhoods and pool memberships are more diverse. However, some neighborhoods and pools have old policies that might have had discriminatory impact even after desegregation if you were to look closely.

For example, there was a discussion in the sports forum on the differences between MCSL and NVSL swim team practices and policies. Did you know that NVSL recommends that teams NOT share seed times for competitive duel meets? MCSL makes that information available. Why the lack of transparency in NVSL? Why is it that swimming has such low participation by black families in NoVA? How many families tried to get their kids into swimming but were harmed by racist coaches and leagues?

Obviously, the kind of discrimination I’m talking about would have been more rampant in the late 60’s and 70’s. Today, we just operate old systems without looking too closely at why they exist. But thinking a little more critically about this won’t hurt, I promise.

Explain the connection between seed times and racism-- why black families would say to themselves, well, if I don't know what another swimmer's previous record for this event is, it's not worth participating.

Racism was rampant in the 1970s. But you've not addressed any of my points at all, so please rebut them so we can be on the same page about why neither climate, nor the actual rate of swim team participation, should matter. Otherwise we are just talking about racism that existed 50 years ago.

It is easy for a coach to hold back a fast swimmer from the “wrong” family, if their times are secret. If you are involved with competitive swimming, you would have some idea about how conteoversial seeding decisions (who swims what strokes at which meets) can be.

ETA: this is just a tiny example of why there might be a low rate of participation by black swimmers at the highest levels of the sport in this area. Housing policies and private pools definitely had the most historical impact. But even when those policies changed, it takes time to overcome the harm. If this area had built public pools instead of private pools, I imagine the racial make-up at this weekend’s NVSL all-stars would look quite different.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is confusing. Why would Fairfax integrate everything else, but draw the line at pools. And, if private pools only allowed white people to join, I think we'd be hearing about this in the real estate forum.

Many of the pools your kids swam in this summer were built in the 50s and 60s, when black people were systematically prevented from living in your neighborhood. Literally not allowed, and it was legal to exclude them. DC had some public pools, and white people didn’t want to share them. They moved out to VA and built private pools. This is not controversial, it’s just history.

Today, yes, we have fair housing laws and our neighborhoods and pool memberships are more diverse. However, some neighborhoods and pools have old policies that might have had discriminatory impact even after desegregation if you were to look closely.

For example, there was a discussion in the sports forum on the differences between MCSL and NVSL swim team practices and policies. Did you know that NVSL recommends that teams NOT share seed times for competitive duel meets? MCSL makes that information available. Why the lack of transparency in NVSL? Why is it that swimming has such low participation by black families in NoVA? How many families tried to get their kids into swimming but were harmed by racist coaches and leagues?

Obviously, the kind of discrimination I’m talking about would have been more rampant in the late 60’s and 70’s. Today, we just operate old systems without looking too closely at why they exist. But thinking a little more critically about this won’t hurt, I promise.

Explain the connection between seed times and racism-- why black families would say to themselves, well, if I don't know what another swimmer's previous record for this event is, it's not worth participating.

Racism was rampant in the 1970s. But you've not addressed any of my points at all, so please rebut them so we can be on the same page about why neither climate, nor the actual rate of swim team participation, should matter. Otherwise we are just talking about racism that existed 50 years ago.

It is easy for a coach to hold back a fast swimmer from the “wrong” family, if their times are secret. If you are involved with competitive swimming, you would have some idea about how conteoversial seeding decisions (who swims what strokes at which meets) can be.

ETA: this is just a tiny example of why there might be a low rate of participation by black swimmers at the highest levels of the sport in this area. Housing policies and private pools definitely had the most historical impact. But even when those policies changed, it takes time to overcome the harm. If this area had built public pools instead of private pools, I imagine the racial make-up at this weekend’s NVSL all-stars would look quite different.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is confusing. Why would Fairfax integrate everything else, but draw the line at pools. And, if private pools only allowed white people to join, I think we'd be hearing about this in the real estate forum.

Many of the pools your kids swam in this summer were built in the 50s and 60s, when black people were systematically prevented from living in your neighborhood. Literally not allowed, and it was legal to exclude them. DC had some public pools, and white people didn’t want to share them. They moved out to VA and built private pools. This is not controversial, it’s just history.

Today, yes, we have fair housing laws and our neighborhoods and pool memberships are more diverse. However, some neighborhoods and pools have old policies that might have had discriminatory impact even after desegregation if you were to look closely.

For example, there was a discussion in the sports forum on the differences between MCSL and NVSL swim team practices and policies. Did you know that NVSL recommends that teams NOT share seed times for competitive duel meets? MCSL makes that information available. Why the lack of transparency in NVSL? Why is it that swimming has such low participation by black families in NoVA? How many families tried to get their kids into swimming but were harmed by racist coaches and leagues?

Obviously, the kind of discrimination I’m talking about would have been more rampant in the late 60’s and 70’s. Today, we just operate old systems without looking too closely at why they exist. But thinking a little more critically about this won’t hurt, I promise.

Explain the connection between seed times and racism-- why black families would say to themselves, well, if I don't know what another swimmer's previous record for this event is, it's not worth participating.

Racism was rampant in the 1970s. But you've not addressed any of my points at all, so please rebut them so we can be on the same page about why neither climate, nor the actual rate of swim team participation, should matter. Otherwise we are just talking about racism that existed 50 years ago.

It is easy for a coach to hold back a fast swimmer from the “wrong” family, if their times are secret. If you are involved with competitive swimming, you would have some idea about how conteoversial seeding decisions (who swims what strokes at which meets) can be.

Anonymous wrote:The DMV has more swim teams per capita than any other metro area. There may not be as many outdoor pools as there are in places like Florida or California, but that's because the weather and environment make that difficult. DC gets very cold in winter, which jeopardizes the water lines that go into pools to keep them continuously filled. It has 2 leaf, pollen, and dirt filled seasons in spring and fall, which means not just more chemical cleaning but also more manual cleaning.

So:
1) the idea that DC area kids are deprived of pool time seems at odds with the fact that there are more swim team kids in the DC area than any other metro area. To take this even further-- they aren't just on swim teams, they are absolutely dominating. NCAP has more swimmers awarded swim scholarships than any other team in the US. The only 2 true swim celebrities are Phelps and Ledecky. This area is not deprived of pools, they are just structured differently.

2) having mostly outdoor pools would actually limit swim time unless a "bubble" were constructed over them to keep them indoors 9-10 months per year, due to the repair costs that would come from trying to maintain a large outdoor pool in a 4 season climate with harsh weather.

You have to know very little about DC swim, and very little about pool maintenance, to think that racism is the most obvious reason for DC area pools being indoors.

Before you jump in and say only rich kids can afford swim teams, most of these swim teams have fee waivers for those unable to pay. Face it, the DC area has pool privilege.

Anonymous wrote:
In 2020 the public rec center pools started having swim teams. These teams compete in the NVSL. Any kid can join.

https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/parks/sites/parks/files/assets/documents/parktakes/sp20-5.pdf

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is confusing. Why would Fairfax integrate everything else, but draw the line at pools. And, if private pools only allowed white people to join, I think we'd be hearing about this in the real estate forum.

Many of the pools your kids swam in this summer were built in the 50s and 60s, when black people were systematically prevented from living in your neighborhood. Literally not allowed, and it was legal to exclude them. DC had some public pools, and white people didn’t want to share them. They moved out to VA and built private pools. This is not controversial, it’s just history.

Today, yes, we have fair housing laws and our neighborhoods and pool memberships are more diverse. However, some neighborhoods and pools have old policies that might have had discriminatory impact even after desegregation if you were to look closely.

For example, there was a discussion in the sports forum on the differences between MCSL and NVSL swim team practices and policies. Did you know that NVSL recommends that teams NOT share seed times for competitive duel meets? MCSL makes that information available. Why the lack of transparency in NVSL? Why is it that swimming has such low participation by black families in NoVA? How many families tried to get their kids into swimming but were harmed by racist coaches and leagues?

Obviously, the kind of discrimination I’m talking about would have been more rampant in the late 60’s and 70’s. Today, we just operate old systems without looking too closely at why they exist. But thinking a little more critically about this won’t hurt, I promise.

Explain the connection between seed times and racism-- why black families would say to themselves, well, if I don't know what another swimmer's previous record for this event is, it's not worth participating.

Racism was rampant in the 1970s. But you've not addressed any of my points at all, so please rebut them so we can be on the same page about why neither climate, nor the actual rate of swim team participation, should matter. Otherwise we are just talking about racism that existed 50 years ago.

It is easy for a coach to hold back a fast swimmer from the “wrong” family, if their times are secret. If you are involved with competitive swimming, you would have some idea about how conteoversial seeding decisions (who swims what strokes at which meets) can be.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is confusing. Why would Fairfax integrate everything else, but draw the line at pools. And, if private pools only allowed white people to join, I think we'd be hearing about this in the real estate forum.

Many of the pools your kids swam in this summer were built in the 50s and 60s, when black people were systematically prevented from living in your neighborhood. Literally not allowed, and it was legal to exclude them. DC had some public pools, and white people didn’t want to share them. They moved out to VA and built private pools. This is not controversial, it’s just history.

Today, yes, we have fair housing laws and our neighborhoods and pool memberships are more diverse. However, some neighborhoods and pools have old policies that might have had discriminatory impact even after desegregation if you were to look closely.

For example, there was a discussion in the sports forum on the differences between MCSL and NVSL swim team practices and policies. Did you know that NVSL recommends that teams NOT share seed times for competitive duel meets? MCSL makes that information available. Why the lack of transparency in NVSL? Why is it that swimming has such low participation by black families in NoVA? How many families tried to get their kids into swimming but were harmed by racist coaches and leagues?

Obviously, the kind of discrimination I’m talking about would have been more rampant in the late 60’s and 70’s. Today, we just operate old systems without looking too closely at why they exist. But thinking a little more critically about this won’t hurt, I promise.

Explain the connection between seed times and racism-- why black families would say to themselves, well, if I don't know what another swimmer's previous record for this event is, it's not worth participating.

Racism was rampant in the 1970s. But you've not addressed any of my points at all, so please rebut them so we can be on the same page about why neither climate, nor the actual rate of swim team participation, should matter. Otherwise we are just talking about racism that existed 50 years ago.