Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So a first-year teacher makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?

So a first-year doctor makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?
So a first-year lawyer makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?
So a first-year engineer makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?

My first year out of college, with a bachelor's degree in environmental science, I made more than the county's median income (adjusted for inflation),

Teaching ES isn't precisely comparable to performing heart surgery. Med school and residency take over a decade or more.

I've known a few remarkable teachers, but most seem to have degrees in psychology from Towson State. No offense but that is hardly comparable.

What's your obsession with Towson? You get rejected from there or something? Absolutely sounds like it. Stop disparaging other people's educations while hiding behind a keyboard. You have the mentality of a thirteen year old. Gross to see on a grown adult.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t, in principle, have a problem with paying teachers more. I just think it's counterproductive to do large, across-the-board raises when older teachers already make well above the median income. Heck, they make more than the median household income on their own!

Pay is a serious issue for starting teachers, who in many ways have even harder jobs as they adapt lesson plans and materials for themselves. They should get substantial pay raises. Similarly, some areas, like special education, should be on higher salary schedules due to the increased challenges with recruiting and retaining them in the field.

The real problem across-the-board is teacher workload. The MCPS salary agreement mostly helps veteran teachers, many of whom are nearing retirement. Not only will it do little to help the long-term challenge of attracting teachers, it could make it harder to fix the real problem. More money on higher salaries means there's less money to spend on more teachers.

Don't the vast majority of teachers agree that pay isn't the main problem? So why is MCPS digging itself into a bigger hole? And why are the younger teachers letting MCEA throw them under the bus to help the old teachers?

Throughout these posts, I see many people presenting that the fact that MCPS teachers make more than the median income in Montgomery County as the central argument that MCPS teachers should be happy to get what they get. What is the median household income in Montgomery County for someone with a masters degree or a doctorate degree and how does that compare to that of an MCPS teacher with a masters or doctorate degree? I couldn't find that data specific to our county, but the Economic Policy Institute has tracked this data on a national level and the difference between the earnings of teachers as compared to other professionals with the same level of education has increased over time. In 2021, Teachers earned 23.5% less than comparable college graduates.

Here is the article:
https://www.epi.org/publication/teacher-pay-penalty-2022/
And here is a summary of the article: "Simply put, teachers are paid less (in weekly wages and total compensation) than their nonteacher college-educated counterparts, and the situation has worsened considerably over time."


The fact of the matter is that many schools have teaching & paraprofessional vacancies that have not been filled. If the job was so cushy and well-compensated as some of you here suggest, there would not be so many vacancies. Many teachers have left or are planning to leave for jobs that are not as emotionally taxing on them or their families. For some it is worth it move into another less stressful job (even if that means a paycut).

Pay isn’t everything. A lot of people choose professions based on work/life balance. Given that it is impractical to expect the very large salary increases that would be necessary to offset the poor work/life balance of entry-level teachers, it is critical to address those other underlying issues with how schools structure those jobs.

You keep suggesting the pay is low, but it really isn’t when you dig into the data. The study you cited put the compensation gap at 14%. Once you further adjust for the area of education (e.g., comparing to social science degree holders) and public sector employees (and potentially the 10-month schedule, depending on the study), the gap will further shrink, if not invert.

That's not to say there aren't problems that need to be addressed, but increasing the salary of a 50-year-old with a Master's/Doctorate in Education from ~$110k by another $6k next year isn't going to do anything to fix the real problems.

Ya, I don't see the problem here. People are making higher than the county's median income starting out with 0 xp for a job where you work 180 days minus generous personal leave.

Anonymous wrote:Usually teachers are let go/fired /non-renewable with no protections and mcea rolls over as the motto is these teachers have poor classroom management then mcea and the board have a pizza party when they ruin new teachers careers. Sounds fun to be at a level where you have so much power to lord over teachers and zero accountability.

You have to be awfully bad for MCPS to let you go during your probationary period. Everyone here knows that, which is why you've never gotten any sympathy the 1000 other times you've complained about being fired.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t, in principle, have a problem with paying teachers more. I just think it's counterproductive to do large, across-the-board raises when older teachers already make well above the median income. Heck, they make more than the median household income on their own!

Pay is a serious issue for starting teachers, who in many ways have even harder jobs as they adapt lesson plans and materials for themselves. They should get substantial pay raises. Similarly, some areas, like special education, should be on higher salary schedules due to the increased challenges with recruiting and retaining them in the field.

The real problem across-the-board is teacher workload. The MCPS salary agreement mostly helps veteran teachers, many of whom are nearing retirement. Not only will it do little to help the long-term challenge of attracting teachers, it could make it harder to fix the real problem. More money on higher salaries means there's less money to spend on more teachers.

Don't the vast majority of teachers agree that pay isn't the main problem? So why is MCPS digging itself into a bigger hole? And why are the younger teachers letting MCEA throw them under the bus to help the old teachers?

Throughout these posts, I see many people presenting that the fact that MCPS teachers make more than the median income in Montgomery County as the central argument that MCPS teachers should be happy to get what they get. What is the median household income in Montgomery County for someone with a masters degree or a doctorate degree and how does that compare to that of an MCPS teacher with a masters or doctorate degree? I couldn't find that data specific to our county, but the Economic Policy Institute has tracked this data on a national level and the difference between the earnings of teachers as compared to other professionals with the same level of education has increased over time. In 2021, Teachers earned 23.5% less than comparable college graduates.

Here is the article:
https://www.epi.org/publication/teacher-pay-penalty-2022/
And here is a summary of the article: "Simply put, teachers are paid less (in weekly wages and total compensation) than their nonteacher college-educated counterparts, and the situation has worsened considerably over time."


The fact of the matter is that many schools have teaching & paraprofessional vacancies that have not been filled. If the job was so cushy and well-compensated as some of you here suggest, there would not be so many vacancies. Many teachers have left or are planning to leave for jobs that are not as emotionally taxing on them or their families. For some it is worth it move into another less stressful job (even if that means a paycut).

Pay isn’t everything. A lot of people choose professions based on work/life balance. Given that it is impractical to expect the very large salary increases that would be necessary to offset the poor work/life balance of entry-level teachers, it is critical to address those other underlying issues with how schools structure those jobs.

You keep suggesting the pay is low, but it really isn’t when you dig into the data. The study you cited put the compensation gap at 14%. Once you further adjust for the area of education (e.g., comparing to social science degree holders) and public sector employees (and potentially the 10-month schedule, depending on the study), the gap will further shrink, if not invert.

That's not to say there aren't problems that need to be addressed, but increasing the salary of a 50-year-old with a Master's/Doctorate in Education from ~$110k by another $6k next year isn't going to do anything to fix the real problems.

The teacher shortage is real and as a consequence the market will fix teachers salaries. That said, folks need to understand that get a teaching degree is not nearly as difficult as getting other degrees. While they day to work may be hard, the compensation for that has always been summer’s off, a pension, and great health coverage. If what teachers are saying now is they want higher salaries to compensate for the difficulties in the classroom day to day and to be able to afford life in the county, many would be supportive of this. However, teachers and MCEA are going to have to understand that the county and citizens in the country overall are also going to negotiate to ensure they are getting their money worth. They are going to want increased entrance requirements and graduations requirements for school and employment they are going to require(not just encourage) national board certification, teachers to work 12 months to be able to cover summer school , performance review requirements, etc. etc.

I’m all for making teaching a high pay and coveted career, other countries have. But the expectations of the profession will not decrease and society will need to change with it.

Usually teachers are let go/fired /non-renewable with no protections and mcea rolls over as the motto is these teachers have poor classroom management then mcea and the board have a pizza party when they ruin new teachers careers. Sounds fun to be at a level where you have so much power to lord over teachers and zero accountability.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So a first-year teacher makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?

So a first-year doctor makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?
So a first-year lawyer makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?
So a first-year engineer makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?

My first year out of college, with a bachelor's degree in environmental science, I made more than the county's median income (adjusted for inflation),

Teaching ES isn't precisely comparable to performing heart surgery. Med school and residency take over a decade or more.

I've known a few remarkable teachers, but most seem to have degrees in psychology from Towson State. No offense but that is hardly comparable.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So a first-year teacher makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?

So a first-year doctor makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?
So a first-year lawyer makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?
So a first-year engineer makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?

My first year out of college, with a bachelor's degree in environmental science, I made more than the county's median income (adjusted for inflation),

Why do you all keep giving examples of pay that is clearly not the norm, as though it is the norm? Do you think you are convincing anyone of absolutely anything?

Anonymous wrote:So a first-year teacher makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?

So a first-year doctor makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?
So a first-year lawyer makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?
So a first-year engineer makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?

My first year out of college, with a bachelor's degree in environmental science, I made more than the county's median income (adjusted for inflation),

So a first-year teacher makes as much as the county's median income, and they feel underpaid?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t, in principle, have a problem with paying teachers more. I just think it's counterproductive to do large, across-the-board raises when older teachers already make well above the median income. Heck, they make more than the median household income on their own!

Pay is a serious issue for starting teachers, who in many ways have even harder jobs as they adapt lesson plans and materials for themselves. They should get substantial pay raises. Similarly, some areas, like special education, should be on higher salary schedules due to the increased challenges with recruiting and retaining them in the field.

The real problem across-the-board is teacher workload. The MCPS salary agreement mostly helps veteran teachers, many of whom are nearing retirement. Not only will it do little to help the long-term challenge of attracting teachers, it could make it harder to fix the real problem. More money on higher salaries means there's less money to spend on more teachers.

Don't the vast majority of teachers agree that pay isn't the main problem? So why is MCPS digging itself into a bigger hole? And why are the younger teachers letting MCEA throw them under the bus to help the old teachers?

Throughout these posts, I see many people presenting that the fact that MCPS teachers make more than the median income in Montgomery County as the central argument that MCPS teachers should be happy to get what they get. What is the median household income in Montgomery County for someone with a masters degree or a doctorate degree and how does that compare to that of an MCPS teacher with a masters or doctorate degree? I couldn't find that data specific to our county, but the Economic Policy Institute has tracked this data on a national level and the difference between the earnings of teachers as compared to other professionals with the same level of education has increased over time. In 2021, Teachers earned 23.5% less than comparable college graduates.

Here is the article:
https://www.epi.org/publication/teacher-pay-penalty-2022/
And here is a summary of the article: "Simply put, teachers are paid less (in weekly wages and total compensation) than their nonteacher college-educated counterparts, and the situation has worsened considerably over time."


The fact of the matter is that many schools have teaching & paraprofessional vacancies that have not been filled. If the job was so cushy and well-compensated as some of you here suggest, there would not be so many vacancies. Many teachers have left or are planning to leave for jobs that are not as emotionally taxing on them or their families. For some it is worth it move into another less stressful job (even if that means a paycut).

I'm the person who has cited the county's median income and I never said I think teachers should be happy to get what they get. I actually do hope teachers get a big raise, they deserve and need it. I cited the county's median income because MCPS/MCEA etc. are PISSED that the Council will not be raising property taxes by 10%. That is the epitomy of entitlement. You all seem to think everyone in MoCo is making $200k+ and that is simply not the reality. Absorbing a 10% increase will be hard for a lot of people (including renters, who get those costs passed on to them) Please try to stop misrepresenting what people are saying, it's not helping your case, I promise you.

The median earnings for a person with a graduate or professional degree in Montgomery County in 2021 was $105k according to the American Community Survey. It's possible/likely that's a mix of part time and full time workers (it also includes people with law and medical degrees). I don't know what the median age is for this group, I believe the median age for people in the labor force is about 40, so I think it's reasonable to assume that a person earning that median of $105k would have about 15 years of experience. Looking back at the salary schedules for 2021-2022, teachers with 15 years experience were making a little less than that (though it's probably about equal when you consider the value of the pension, which is considerable). It doesn't strike me that teacher salaries are that far out of line with what people with graduate degrees actually earn (vs the outlier examples that are trotted out on these boards as if they are the norm). That being said, teachers definitely need a raise, number 1 because inflation is real and brutal and number 2 because there is a massive teacher shortage. At the same time, I think addressing the root causes of the shortage will probably help more than the raise. Hearing Jennifer Martin talking about the teacher who got stabbed, called for help and nobody came made me wonder, what is the school system doing to address that? Because if I were in that situation, no amount of money would convince me to stay.

Anonymous wrote:I don’t, in principle, have a problem with paying teachers more. I just think it's counterproductive to do large, across-the-board raises when older teachers already make well above the median income. Heck, they make more than the median household income on their own!

Pay is a serious issue for starting teachers, who in many ways have even harder jobs as they adapt lesson plans and materials for themselves. They should get substantial pay raises. Similarly, some areas, like special education, should be on higher salary schedules due to the increased challenges with recruiting and retaining them in the field.

The real problem across-the-board is teacher workload. The MCPS salary agreement mostly helps veteran teachers, many of whom are nearing retirement. Not only will it do little to help the long-term challenge of attracting teachers, it could make it harder to fix the real problem. More money on higher salaries means there's less money to spend on more teachers.

Don't the vast majority of teachers agree that pay isn't the main problem? So why is MCPS digging itself into a bigger hole? And why are the younger teachers letting MCEA throw them under the bus to help the old teachers?

Throughout these posts, I see many people presenting that the fact that MCPS teachers make more than the median income in Montgomery County as the central argument that MCPS teachers should be happy to get what they get. What is the median household income in Montgomery County for someone with a masters degree or a doctorate degree and how does that compare to that of an MCPS teacher with a masters or doctorate degree? I couldn't find that data specific to our county, but the Economic Policy Institute has tracked this data on a national level and the difference between the earnings of teachers as compared to other professionals with the same level of education has increased over time. In 2021, Teachers earned 23.5% less than comparable college graduates.

Here is the article:
https://www.epi.org/publication/teacher-pay-penalty-2022/
And here is a summary of the article: "Simply put, teachers are paid less (in weekly wages and total compensation) than their nonteacher college-educated counterparts, and the situation has worsened considerably over time."


The fact of the matter is that many schools have teaching & paraprofessional vacancies that have not been filled. If the job was so cushy and well-compensated as some of you here suggest, there would not be so many vacancies. Many teachers have left or are planning to leave for jobs that are not as emotionally taxing on them or their families. For some it is worth it move into another less stressful job (even if that means a paycut).

Anonymous wrote:Having volunteered in the classroom, teaching is a hard job and should be well compensated. There should also be more teachers/smaller classes. Where I get mad is the poor curriculum choices made by the central office, lack of enrichment for high performing students, large class sizes, and hundreds of superfluous admins in the central office who do what exactly. MCPS needs an independent audit.

100% agree. Central office is entirely too bloated and they are too removed from schools. These admin folk should be required to be IN schools, supporting teachers or students, at least 25% of the time to understand the direct impact that their decisions have on learning. Instead, they drop in for 30 min a few times a quarter and talk about data/chit chat. Such a waste of resources and it’s not good for kids.

Having volunteered in the classroom, teaching is a hard job and should be well compensated. There should also be more teachers/smaller classes. Where I get mad is the poor curriculum choices made by the central office, lack of enrichment for high performing students, large class sizes, and hundreds of superfluous admins in the central office who do what exactly. MCPS needs an independent audit.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow I don't know how we got to oil rigs but it sounds like what you are saying is there are numerous options for anyone who wants to make $100k working only 6 months. And yet, the median wage for the hundreds of thousands of workers in Montgomery County for a full year is $60k. Is everyone who lives here just an idiot or do people just not like to make money? Or maybe, just maybe, those opporunities are actually not as widely available or easy to get as you so disingenuously imply.

The fact you still don’t get the point a DP made is amazing. People come in DCUM to lament and complain about how “cushy” teaching jobs are and how teachers only work 10 months and how it’s oso unfair…. Childish and immature. So someone posted other positions that aren’t 12 months to prove not everyone is a slave for 12 months. It’s embarrassing you don’t understand this. No one is saying teachers are people on oil rigs. The point was plenty (PLENTY) of contracted jobs pay well and people don’t work all year long but they don’t receive the same backlash teachers do. You just sound upset you couldn’t figure out a better life for yourself. I hope you get better soon.

Stop being a bully. When people say things you disagree with, it is not "embarrassing". If you talked like this to people in person you would be embarrassing yourself. You hide behind the anonymity of these boards and think online bullying is ok, but it's not.

Fyi, people referring to other people's jobs as "cushy" on this thread are talking about office jobs, not teaching jobs. And people argue about teachers having more time off because they are arguing with people who are comparing teacher salaries to 12 month salaries. That is backlash against dumb arguments, not against teachers having summers off.