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I think this is off too. Going from 260s to 290s while they are at home doing normal 3-5th grade homework and maybe some supplement just wouldn’t happen. I can’t imagine the type of out school work a kid would be doing to have these gains. My child has ranged from high 250s-low 260s in 3,4, and now 5th grade. So it is clear he has a high level of math skill but also hasn’t been learning anything new in a long time. We try at home, but we our best at home, it isn’t enough. I think ultimately he would benefit from being in an actual math class at school that is teaching him new material, which is why I’m considering alg I in 6th grade. I expect it to be a mix of some review and some new material.

From my experience: our child scored 275 on NWEA MAP 2-5 in 4th grade (due to Covid acceleration), got a raw 60/60 on the IAAT in 5th grade, perfect SOL - they're now completing Algebra I in sixth grade.
Although only about 2.5% of their cohort was admitted to Algebra in 6th grade, it's clear that some of the other kids shouldn't be there and a dragging down the level of instruction compared to what could be done. (They score 80-90% on tests that allow Desmos...)

Unfortunately, if I were you, I'd still be pushing for Algebra in 6th grade for the alternative of more school-level prealgebra is worse and a waste of time.


But I would have my child go deeper in prep: make sure they're at the mastery level of all Alcumus Prealgebra subjects, and potentially pay for them to take the online version of Prealgebra 1 + 2 at AoPS (or the in-person version if you can afford the money and logistics). We also did their Algebra A course when our child was in 5th grade. Then school-level Algebra I will indeed be mostly review and they can focus on working ahead on the Geometry and Intermediate Algebra, which we're addressing now.

Also make sure they participate in AMC-8, Math Kangaroo, and Mathcounts and engage in regular practice there.

It seems you essentially homeschool your child. Not sure why he’s taking 6th grade Algebra at this point, maybe for credit or because it’s the most accelerated path available at the school.

What is really rubbing me the wrong way is how you claim the other kids scoring in the 80-90% don’t belong to that class, when in fact it’s your own child that doesn’t belong there having already completed the material. You have the expectation that 6th grade algebra should somehow be modified to match your child’s level and not the level of the other students in the class that were placed appropriately.

Kudos to the kids that work hard, but sometimes the parents of these children are so insufferable and disparage other kids when most likely there are equally as bright, but just don’t have the early exposure to accelerate them along the math pathway.

The 6th graders in algebra should do better than that, and are elsewhere the top students in the class.

Meanwhile, at title one schools students are denied these opportunities despite being the top students in their class

No they are not. Title one schools all offer algebra I, typically to 8th graders, where there is low participation anyhow. The amount of 6th graders that could qualify to take it are very very few, probably one every few yrs. There are few 6th graders doing this even in the best districts. Majority of schools would have zero issue putting a 6th grader in it since there is so little demand and it is an easy accommodation.

Oh really? That is NOT TRUE. Please name a single title-1 school that offers Pre-Algebra to 5th graders like the wealthy elemenataries. Some wealthy MS offer Algebra 1 to any 6th graders who score over 250 on their 5th grade MAP-M. Well, DC scored over 250 on the same test in 3rd grade. I remember asking the principal of our title-1 school if there was anything they could offer them since they were not challenged. They said sorry we don't offer that here.

This just means that you have an inflexible principal, or it means that your child is not the outlier that you perceive him to be. It doesn't mean that opportunities are lacking in Title I schools writ large. My kid tested off the charts at a Title I school. The school math resource teacher met one on one with my child to assess his math level and the proper placement. He ultimately ended up skipping 2/3 grade levels of math, taking IAAT and 7th grade SOL when in 4th grade and Algebra in 5th. Title I schools might not have sufficient cohort to offer Pre-Algebra in general to 5th graders. They absolutely can and will allow an individual child to join a higher grade level for math class when the child is otherwise an outlier.

You are in VA so it's a bit different can MCPS. 250 isn't abnormal in MCPS for MAP in 3rd but it's the 5th grade that counts. Only one school offers aim and it really doesn't matter. Supplement at home. About 1/3 the middle schools allow Algebra in 6th but only a select few are allowed or choose to do it. Otherwise smart kids take Algebra in 7th. Not a big deal either way. I would not have wanted my child to take AIM in 5th. Starting Algebra with out AIM was fine but child did do a summer prep class to make sure they could handle it.

The thing that gets me about all this is how parents use the acceleration that is only available at a handful of wealthy schools as a golden ticket to unlock programs like TJ and later complain how it's gone downhill when fewer privileged students are now admitted because the county adopts a more equitable admissions policy.

Yeah this is incorrect. Acceleration for 7th grade algebra is available at all middle schools and gifted children can be identified for AAP at all elementary schools. 6th grade algebra is rare in FCPS for everyone but it happens and would probably shake out wearier for a kid destined for AAP. A kid isn’t showing up at a title I school in FCPS in 5th grade all the sudden ready for algebra the next year and no one has noticed. You don’t gotta lie to kick it.

They are rambling about MCPS where there may be one school that offers AIM. AIM meaning pre-algbra in 5th. Most kids take Algebra in 7/8, some 9th. Some MS offer Algebra in 6th but its maybe under 25 students per school, if offered. They are mixed in with the 7/8 graders. Pre-Algebra for 5th is a bit absurd except for a genius level student.

Yes, 1-2 of the wealthiest schools in the county provide algebra in 6th, but the majority do not.

Yes, because there’s a cohort of students and qualified teachers that make offering algebra 1 in 6 feasible. At your average title 1 school there are many other things the administration has to deal with: teacher retention, chronic absenteeism, addressing the large chunk of students that are way below grade level. Let’s assume your child is the gifted genius you claim him to be. Maybe they see a child like that once a decade. You show up at their office door and demand your kid is placed in algebra because you’ve heard that at Frost kids with at least 250 on MAP get this treatment. You go on a rambling about fairness, MLK, opportunity hoarding and how your kids chances at TJ are compromised because they don’t put him in Algebra. I’m not surprised with the outcome you got. This being said there are opportunities you can pursue, but you’re too busy being a victim and going on your tiny little fairness crusade. Good luck, I hope you succeed!

250 is a pretty normal MAP score in MCPS.

For the billionth time, the test is not the same.

You are an idiot and don’t understand what you are talking about. The 3-5 test IS the same test but it adapts to ability, regardless of grade or age. Which means it’s comparable.

Computer adaptive means that the sequence of questions is dependent on how each question is answered, but the questions are chosen from the bank of the test. For MAP there are two versions of the test MAP 2-5, and MAP 6+ that have a different set of bank questions. Both have the same scale of scores, and the scores are somewhat equivalent, but the equivalency is not that accurate at the ends of the scale. A 250 on the MAP 2-5 would mostly test lower grade arithmetic content, while a 250 on the MAP 6+ tests well into algebra content. That’s why sometimes you see a dip in scores from 5th to 6th grade tests especially at the high end. Even within these two version there are subversions adjusted to state standards etc., you can also specify instructional area by grades, so it’s possible that each district chooses a version of the test that best fits their needs.

You can see the version description here:
https://teach.mapnwea.org/impl/maphelp/Content/AboutMAP/MAPTestDescription.htm

When a student takes the test, there’s a detailed report called Learning Continuum (it’s 30+ pages long), that breaks down the concepts the student understands at 75%, 50%, and 25% mastery. This report is more informative for student placement, because it is broken down in items like ‘inverse of a quadratic function (251-260)’.

I’d suggest that when you share your boundless knowledge on how MAP testing works, you post a link so we can evaluate independently your claims. It’s amazing how complete ignoramuses consider themselves experts just because they got a map test results letter in their mailbox.

Nothing you have said contradicts anything I’ve said. What is wrong is to say that the third grade test is not comparable with the 5th grade test. It is. No master how many times you claim otherwise, if a 3rd grade child has the same knowledge and abilities (and test taking aptitude) as a 5th grade child they will score the same.

You’re playing stupid on purpose or you’re just plain stupid. On this thread we’re are discussing MAP testing in the context of Algebra 1 placement for 6th grade. Some moron comparing himself to Martin Luther King, quoted his child’s MAP score in 3rd grade as evidence the child should be allowed to take that class. The nuanced answer is that for placement purposes it really depends what content was tested, and it’s perfectly possible the school was correct in denying Algebra 1 in 6th for that student because it was not appropriate. Then said moron cries unfairness all over this board and claims he’s fighting for fairness.

I suggest that you go back and reread the thread and then come back and apologize. Kids don’t take the sixth grade test until, duh, they are in 6th grade. Class placement decisions are taken in 5th grade ergo the only MAP test that anyone is looking at for 6th grade placement is the 3-5th test. Some schools (mostly wealthy ones but not the magnet middle schools) will consider placing kids with 250 or higher IN FIFTH GRADE on the 3-5 grade MAP test in 6th grade algebra. Their 6th grade score is irrelevant because that isn’t taken until they are already in 6th. The PP (who didn’t combats themself to MLK, someone else did) was saying that not only did their child exceed that 250 requirement in 5th but they got there in 3rd which IS directly comparable. Got it????

My child was tested with MAP 6+ before 6th grade. Unless you have inside knowledge on how the math placement works at ‘wealthy’ schools, you should refrain from crying out unfairness, and rich privilege. You haven’t personally seen the files of students being placed, you are just relying on hearsay and second hand information.

And written reports. But you’re not actually in MCPS, are you? So you have no idea what happens in MCPS.

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I think this is off too. Going from 260s to 290s while they are at home doing normal 3-5th grade homework and maybe some supplement just wouldn’t happen. I can’t imagine the type of out school work a kid would be doing to have these gains. My child has ranged from high 250s-low 260s in 3,4, and now 5th grade. So it is clear he has a high level of math skill but also hasn’t been learning anything new in a long time. We try at home, but we our best at home, it isn’t enough. I think ultimately he would benefit from being in an actual math class at school that is teaching him new material, which is why I’m considering alg I in 6th grade. I expect it to be a mix of some review and some new material.

From my experience: our child scored 275 on NWEA MAP 2-5 in 4th grade (due to Covid acceleration), got a raw 60/60 on the IAAT in 5th grade, perfect SOL - they're now completing Algebra I in sixth grade.
Although only about 2.5% of their cohort was admitted to Algebra in 6th grade, it's clear that some of the other kids shouldn't be there and a dragging down the level of instruction compared to what could be done. (They score 80-90% on tests that allow Desmos...)

Unfortunately, if I were you, I'd still be pushing for Algebra in 6th grade for the alternative of more school-level prealgebra is worse and a waste of time.


But I would have my child go deeper in prep: make sure they're at the mastery level of all Alcumus Prealgebra subjects, and potentially pay for them to take the online version of Prealgebra 1 + 2 at AoPS (or the in-person version if you can afford the money and logistics). We also did their Algebra A course when our child was in 5th grade. Then school-level Algebra I will indeed be mostly review and they can focus on working ahead on the Geometry and Intermediate Algebra, which we're addressing now.

Also make sure they participate in AMC-8, Math Kangaroo, and Mathcounts and engage in regular practice there.

It seems you essentially homeschool your child. Not sure why he’s taking 6th grade Algebra at this point, maybe for credit or because it’s the most accelerated path available at the school.

What is really rubbing me the wrong way is how you claim the other kids scoring in the 80-90% don’t belong to that class, when in fact it’s your own child that doesn’t belong there having already completed the material. You have the expectation that 6th grade algebra should somehow be modified to match your child’s level and not the level of the other students in the class that were placed appropriately.

Kudos to the kids that work hard, but sometimes the parents of these children are so insufferable and disparage other kids when most likely there are equally as bright, but just don’t have the early exposure to accelerate them along the math pathway.

The 6th graders in algebra should do better than that, and are elsewhere the top students in the class.

Meanwhile, at title one schools students are denied these opportunities despite being the top students in their class

No they are not. Title one schools all offer algebra I, typically to 8th graders, where there is low participation anyhow. The amount of 6th graders that could qualify to take it are very very few, probably one every few yrs. There are few 6th graders doing this even in the best districts. Majority of schools would have zero issue putting a 6th grader in it since there is so little demand and it is an easy accommodation.

Oh really? That is NOT TRUE. Please name a single title-1 school that offers Pre-Algebra to 5th graders like the wealthy elemenataries. Some wealthy MS offer Algebra 1 to any 6th graders who score over 250 on their 5th grade MAP-M. Well, DC scored over 250 on the same test in 3rd grade. I remember asking the principal of our title-1 school if there was anything they could offer them since they were not challenged. They said sorry we don't offer that here.

This just means that you have an inflexible principal, or it means that your child is not the outlier that you perceive him to be. It doesn't mean that opportunities are lacking in Title I schools writ large. My kid tested off the charts at a Title I school. The school math resource teacher met one on one with my child to assess his math level and the proper placement. He ultimately ended up skipping 2/3 grade levels of math, taking IAAT and 7th grade SOL when in 4th grade and Algebra in 5th. Title I schools might not have sufficient cohort to offer Pre-Algebra in general to 5th graders. They absolutely can and will allow an individual child to join a higher grade level for math class when the child is otherwise an outlier.

You are in VA so it's a bit different can MCPS. 250 isn't abnormal in MCPS for MAP in 3rd but it's the 5th grade that counts. Only one school offers aim and it really doesn't matter. Supplement at home. About 1/3 the middle schools allow Algebra in 6th but only a select few are allowed or choose to do it. Otherwise smart kids take Algebra in 7th. Not a big deal either way. I would not have wanted my child to take AIM in 5th. Starting Algebra with out AIM was fine but child did do a summer prep class to make sure they could handle it.

The thing that gets me about all this is how parents use the acceleration that is only available at a handful of wealthy schools as a golden ticket to unlock programs like TJ and later complain how it's gone downhill when fewer privileged students are now admitted because the county adopts a more equitable admissions policy.

Yeah this is incorrect. Acceleration for 7th grade algebra is available at all middle schools and gifted children can be identified for AAP at all elementary schools. 6th grade algebra is rare in FCPS for everyone but it happens and would probably shake out wearier for a kid destined for AAP. A kid isn’t showing up at a title I school in FCPS in 5th grade all the sudden ready for algebra the next year and no one has noticed. You don’t gotta lie to kick it.

They are rambling about MCPS where there may be one school that offers AIM. AIM meaning pre-algbra in 5th. Most kids take Algebra in 7/8, some 9th. Some MS offer Algebra in 6th but its maybe under 25 students per school, if offered. They are mixed in with the 7/8 graders. Pre-Algebra for 5th is a bit absurd except for a genius level student.

Yes, 1-2 of the wealthiest schools in the county provide algebra in 6th, but the majority do not.

Yes, because there’s a cohort of students and qualified teachers that make offering algebra 1 in 6 feasible. At your average title 1 school there are many other things the administration has to deal with: teacher retention, chronic absenteeism, addressing the large chunk of students that are way below grade level. Let’s assume your child is the gifted genius you claim him to be. Maybe they see a child like that once a decade. You show up at their office door and demand your kid is placed in algebra because you’ve heard that at Frost kids with at least 250 on MAP get this treatment. You go on a rambling about fairness, MLK, opportunity hoarding and how your kids chances at TJ are compromised because they don’t put him in Algebra. I’m not surprised with the outcome you got. This being said there are opportunities you can pursue, but you’re too busy being a victim and going on your tiny little fairness crusade. Good luck, I hope you succeed!

250 is a pretty normal MAP score in MCPS.

For the billionth time, the test is not the same.

You are an idiot and don’t understand what you are talking about. The 3-5 test IS the same test but it adapts to ability, regardless of grade or age. Which means it’s comparable.

Computer adaptive means that the sequence of questions is dependent on how each question is answered, but the questions are chosen from the bank of the test. For MAP there are two versions of the test MAP 2-5, and MAP 6+ that have a different set of bank questions. Both have the same scale of scores, and the scores are somewhat equivalent, but the equivalency is not that accurate at the ends of the scale. A 250 on the MAP 2-5 would mostly test lower grade arithmetic content, while a 250 on the MAP 6+ tests well into algebra content. That’s why sometimes you see a dip in scores from 5th to 6th grade tests especially at the high end. Even within these two version there are subversions adjusted to state standards etc., you can also specify instructional area by grades, so it’s possible that each district chooses a version of the test that best fits their needs.

You can see the version description here:
https://teach.mapnwea.org/impl/maphelp/Content/AboutMAP/MAPTestDescription.htm

When a student takes the test, there’s a detailed report called Learning Continuum (it’s 30+ pages long), that breaks down the concepts the student understands at 75%, 50%, and 25% mastery. This report is more informative for student placement, because it is broken down in items like ‘inverse of a quadratic function (251-260)’.

I’d suggest that when you share your boundless knowledge on how MAP testing works, you post a link so we can evaluate independently your claims. It’s amazing how complete ignoramuses consider themselves experts just because they got a map test results letter in their mailbox.

Nothing you have said contradicts anything I’ve said. What is wrong is to say that the third grade test is not comparable with the 5th grade test. It is. No master how many times you claim otherwise, if a 3rd grade child has the same knowledge and abilities (and test taking aptitude) as a 5th grade child they will score the same.

You’re playing stupid on purpose or you’re just plain stupid. On this thread we’re are discussing MAP testing in the context of Algebra 1 placement for 6th grade. Some moron comparing himself to Martin Luther King, quoted his child’s MAP score in 3rd grade as evidence the child should be allowed to take that class. The nuanced answer is that for placement purposes it really depends what content was tested, and it’s perfectly possible the school was correct in denying Algebra 1 in 6th for that student because it was not appropriate. Then said moron cries unfairness all over this board and claims he’s fighting for fairness.

I suggest that you go back and reread the thread and then come back and apologize. Kids don’t take the sixth grade test until, duh, they are in 6th grade. Class placement decisions are taken in 5th grade ergo the only MAP test that anyone is looking at for 6th grade placement is the 3-5th test. Some schools (mostly wealthy ones but not the magnet middle schools) will consider placing kids with 250 or higher IN FIFTH GRADE on the 3-5 grade MAP test in 6th grade algebra. Their 6th grade score is irrelevant because that isn’t taken until they are already in 6th. The PP (who didn’t combats themself to MLK, someone else did) was saying that not only did their child exceed that 250 requirement in 5th but they got there in 3rd which IS directly comparable. Got it????

My child was tested with MAP 6+ before 6th grade. Unless you have inside knowledge on how the math placement works at ‘wealthy’ schools, you should refrain from crying out unfairness, and rich privilege. You haven’t personally seen the files of students being placed, you are just relying on hearsay and second hand information.

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I think this is off too. Going from 260s to 290s while they are at home doing normal 3-5th grade homework and maybe some supplement just wouldn’t happen. I can’t imagine the type of out school work a kid would be doing to have these gains. My child has ranged from high 250s-low 260s in 3,4, and now 5th grade. So it is clear he has a high level of math skill but also hasn’t been learning anything new in a long time. We try at home, but we our best at home, it isn’t enough. I think ultimately he would benefit from being in an actual math class at school that is teaching him new material, which is why I’m considering alg I in 6th grade. I expect it to be a mix of some review and some new material.

From my experience: our child scored 275 on NWEA MAP 2-5 in 4th grade (due to Covid acceleration), got a raw 60/60 on the IAAT in 5th grade, perfect SOL - they're now completing Algebra I in sixth grade.
Although only about 2.5% of their cohort was admitted to Algebra in 6th grade, it's clear that some of the other kids shouldn't be there and a dragging down the level of instruction compared to what could be done. (They score 80-90% on tests that allow Desmos...)

Unfortunately, if I were you, I'd still be pushing for Algebra in 6th grade for the alternative of more school-level prealgebra is worse and a waste of time.


But I would have my child go deeper in prep: make sure they're at the mastery level of all Alcumus Prealgebra subjects, and potentially pay for them to take the online version of Prealgebra 1 + 2 at AoPS (or the in-person version if you can afford the money and logistics). We also did their Algebra A course when our child was in 5th grade. Then school-level Algebra I will indeed be mostly review and they can focus on working ahead on the Geometry and Intermediate Algebra, which we're addressing now.

Also make sure they participate in AMC-8, Math Kangaroo, and Mathcounts and engage in regular practice there.

It seems you essentially homeschool your child. Not sure why he’s taking 6th grade Algebra at this point, maybe for credit or because it’s the most accelerated path available at the school.

What is really rubbing me the wrong way is how you claim the other kids scoring in the 80-90% don’t belong to that class, when in fact it’s your own child that doesn’t belong there having already completed the material. You have the expectation that 6th grade algebra should somehow be modified to match your child’s level and not the level of the other students in the class that were placed appropriately.

Kudos to the kids that work hard, but sometimes the parents of these children are so insufferable and disparage other kids when most likely there are equally as bright, but just don’t have the early exposure to accelerate them along the math pathway.

The 6th graders in algebra should do better than that, and are elsewhere the top students in the class.

Meanwhile, at title one schools students are denied these opportunities despite being the top students in their class

No they are not. Title one schools all offer algebra I, typically to 8th graders, where there is low participation anyhow. The amount of 6th graders that could qualify to take it are very very few, probably one every few yrs. There are few 6th graders doing this even in the best districts. Majority of schools would have zero issue putting a 6th grader in it since there is so little demand and it is an easy accommodation.

Oh really? That is NOT TRUE. Please name a single title-1 school that offers Pre-Algebra to 5th graders like the wealthy elemenataries. Some wealthy MS offer Algebra 1 to any 6th graders who score over 250 on their 5th grade MAP-M. Well, DC scored over 250 on the same test in 3rd grade. I remember asking the principal of our title-1 school if there was anything they could offer them since they were not challenged. They said sorry we don't offer that here.

This just means that you have an inflexible principal, or it means that your child is not the outlier that you perceive him to be. It doesn't mean that opportunities are lacking in Title I schools writ large. My kid tested off the charts at a Title I school. The school math resource teacher met one on one with my child to assess his math level and the proper placement. He ultimately ended up skipping 2/3 grade levels of math, taking IAAT and 7th grade SOL when in 4th grade and Algebra in 5th. Title I schools might not have sufficient cohort to offer Pre-Algebra in general to 5th graders. They absolutely can and will allow an individual child to join a higher grade level for math class when the child is otherwise an outlier.

You are in VA so it's a bit different can MCPS. 250 isn't abnormal in MCPS for MAP in 3rd but it's the 5th grade that counts. Only one school offers aim and it really doesn't matter. Supplement at home. About 1/3 the middle schools allow Algebra in 6th but only a select few are allowed or choose to do it. Otherwise smart kids take Algebra in 7th. Not a big deal either way. I would not have wanted my child to take AIM in 5th. Starting Algebra with out AIM was fine but child did do a summer prep class to make sure they could handle it.

The thing that gets me about all this is how parents use the acceleration that is only available at a handful of wealthy schools as a golden ticket to unlock programs like TJ and later complain how it's gone downhill when fewer privileged students are now admitted because the county adopts a more equitable admissions policy.

Yeah this is incorrect. Acceleration for 7th grade algebra is available at all middle schools and gifted children can be identified for AAP at all elementary schools. 6th grade algebra is rare in FCPS for everyone but it happens and would probably shake out wearier for a kid destined for AAP. A kid isn’t showing up at a title I school in FCPS in 5th grade all the sudden ready for algebra the next year and no one has noticed. You don’t gotta lie to kick it.

They are rambling about MCPS where there may be one school that offers AIM. AIM meaning pre-algbra in 5th. Most kids take Algebra in 7/8, some 9th. Some MS offer Algebra in 6th but its maybe under 25 students per school, if offered. They are mixed in with the 7/8 graders. Pre-Algebra for 5th is a bit absurd except for a genius level student.

Yes, 1-2 of the wealthiest schools in the county provide algebra in 6th, but the majority do not.

Yes, because there’s a cohort of students and qualified teachers that make offering algebra 1 in 6 feasible. At your average title 1 school there are many other things the administration has to deal with: teacher retention, chronic absenteeism, addressing the large chunk of students that are way below grade level. Let’s assume your child is the gifted genius you claim him to be. Maybe they see a child like that once a decade. You show up at their office door and demand your kid is placed in algebra because you’ve heard that at Frost kids with at least 250 on MAP get this treatment. You go on a rambling about fairness, MLK, opportunity hoarding and how your kids chances at TJ are compromised because they don’t put him in Algebra. I’m not surprised with the outcome you got. This being said there are opportunities you can pursue, but you’re too busy being a victim and going on your tiny little fairness crusade. Good luck, I hope you succeed!

250 is a pretty normal MAP score in MCPS.

For the billionth time, the test is not the same.

You are an idiot and don’t understand what you are talking about. The 3-5 test IS the same test but it adapts to ability, regardless of grade or age. Which means it’s comparable.

Computer adaptive means that the sequence of questions is dependent on how each question is answered, but the questions are chosen from the bank of the test. For MAP there are two versions of the test MAP 2-5, and MAP 6+ that have a different set of bank questions. Both have the same scale of scores, and the scores are somewhat equivalent, but the equivalency is not that accurate at the ends of the scale. A 250 on the MAP 2-5 would mostly test lower grade arithmetic content, while a 250 on the MAP 6+ tests well into algebra content. That’s why sometimes you see a dip in scores from 5th to 6th grade tests especially at the high end. Even within these two version there are subversions adjusted to state standards etc., you can also specify instructional area by grades, so it’s possible that each district chooses a version of the test that best fits their needs.

You can see the version description here:
https://teach.mapnwea.org/impl/maphelp/Content/AboutMAP/MAPTestDescription.htm

When a student takes the test, there’s a detailed report called Learning Continuum (it’s 30+ pages long), that breaks down the concepts the student understands at 75%, 50%, and 25% mastery. This report is more informative for student placement, because it is broken down in items like ‘inverse of a quadratic function (251-260)’.

I’d suggest that when you share your boundless knowledge on how MAP testing works, you post a link so we can evaluate independently your claims. It’s amazing how complete ignoramuses consider themselves experts just because they got a map test results letter in their mailbox.

It’s pretty obnoxious that you deny how a test works, confusingly represents the facts continuing to claim wrongly that they support your view and then tell those of us who are extremely familiar with MAP and don’t need your lectures that WE are the ones who are wrong. Laughable.

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I think this is off too. Going from 260s to 290s while they are at home doing normal 3-5th grade homework and maybe some supplement just wouldn’t happen. I can’t imagine the type of out school work a kid would be doing to have these gains. My child has ranged from high 250s-low 260s in 3,4, and now 5th grade. So it is clear he has a high level of math skill but also hasn’t been learning anything new in a long time. We try at home, but we our best at home, it isn’t enough. I think ultimately he would benefit from being in an actual math class at school that is teaching him new material, which is why I’m considering alg I in 6th grade. I expect it to be a mix of some review and some new material.

From my experience: our child scored 275 on NWEA MAP 2-5 in 4th grade (due to Covid acceleration), got a raw 60/60 on the IAAT in 5th grade, perfect SOL - they're now completing Algebra I in sixth grade.
Although only about 2.5% of their cohort was admitted to Algebra in 6th grade, it's clear that some of the other kids shouldn't be there and a dragging down the level of instruction compared to what could be done. (They score 80-90% on tests that allow Desmos...)

Unfortunately, if I were you, I'd still be pushing for Algebra in 6th grade for the alternative of more school-level prealgebra is worse and a waste of time.


But I would have my child go deeper in prep: make sure they're at the mastery level of all Alcumus Prealgebra subjects, and potentially pay for them to take the online version of Prealgebra 1 + 2 at AoPS (or the in-person version if you can afford the money and logistics). We also did their Algebra A course when our child was in 5th grade. Then school-level Algebra I will indeed be mostly review and they can focus on working ahead on the Geometry and Intermediate Algebra, which we're addressing now.

Also make sure they participate in AMC-8, Math Kangaroo, and Mathcounts and engage in regular practice there.

It seems you essentially homeschool your child. Not sure why he’s taking 6th grade Algebra at this point, maybe for credit or because it’s the most accelerated path available at the school.

What is really rubbing me the wrong way is how you claim the other kids scoring in the 80-90% don’t belong to that class, when in fact it’s your own child that doesn’t belong there having already completed the material. You have the expectation that 6th grade algebra should somehow be modified to match your child’s level and not the level of the other students in the class that were placed appropriately.

Kudos to the kids that work hard, but sometimes the parents of these children are so insufferable and disparage other kids when most likely there are equally as bright, but just don’t have the early exposure to accelerate them along the math pathway.

The 6th graders in algebra should do better than that, and are elsewhere the top students in the class.

Meanwhile, at title one schools students are denied these opportunities despite being the top students in their class

No they are not. Title one schools all offer algebra I, typically to 8th graders, where there is low participation anyhow. The amount of 6th graders that could qualify to take it are very very few, probably one every few yrs. There are few 6th graders doing this even in the best districts. Majority of schools would have zero issue putting a 6th grader in it since there is so little demand and it is an easy accommodation.

Oh really? That is NOT TRUE. Please name a single title-1 school that offers Pre-Algebra to 5th graders like the wealthy elemenataries. Some wealthy MS offer Algebra 1 to any 6th graders who score over 250 on their 5th grade MAP-M. Well, DC scored over 250 on the same test in 3rd grade. I remember asking the principal of our title-1 school if there was anything they could offer them since they were not challenged. They said sorry we don't offer that here.

This just means that you have an inflexible principal, or it means that your child is not the outlier that you perceive him to be. It doesn't mean that opportunities are lacking in Title I schools writ large. My kid tested off the charts at a Title I school. The school math resource teacher met one on one with my child to assess his math level and the proper placement. He ultimately ended up skipping 2/3 grade levels of math, taking IAAT and 7th grade SOL when in 4th grade and Algebra in 5th. Title I schools might not have sufficient cohort to offer Pre-Algebra in general to 5th graders. They absolutely can and will allow an individual child to join a higher grade level for math class when the child is otherwise an outlier.

You are in VA so it's a bit different can MCPS. 250 isn't abnormal in MCPS for MAP in 3rd but it's the 5th grade that counts. Only one school offers aim and it really doesn't matter. Supplement at home. About 1/3 the middle schools allow Algebra in 6th but only a select few are allowed or choose to do it. Otherwise smart kids take Algebra in 7th. Not a big deal either way. I would not have wanted my child to take AIM in 5th. Starting Algebra with out AIM was fine but child did do a summer prep class to make sure they could handle it.

The thing that gets me about all this is how parents use the acceleration that is only available at a handful of wealthy schools as a golden ticket to unlock programs like TJ and later complain how it's gone downhill when fewer privileged students are now admitted because the county adopts a more equitable admissions policy.

Yeah this is incorrect. Acceleration for 7th grade algebra is available at all middle schools and gifted children can be identified for AAP at all elementary schools. 6th grade algebra is rare in FCPS for everyone but it happens and would probably shake out wearier for a kid destined for AAP. A kid isn’t showing up at a title I school in FCPS in 5th grade all the sudden ready for algebra the next year and no one has noticed. You don’t gotta lie to kick it.

They are rambling about MCPS where there may be one school that offers AIM. AIM meaning pre-algbra in 5th. Most kids take Algebra in 7/8, some 9th. Some MS offer Algebra in 6th but its maybe under 25 students per school, if offered. They are mixed in with the 7/8 graders. Pre-Algebra for 5th is a bit absurd except for a genius level student.

Yes, 1-2 of the wealthiest schools in the county provide algebra in 6th, but the majority do not.

Yes, because there’s a cohort of students and qualified teachers that make offering algebra 1 in 6 feasible. At your average title 1 school there are many other things the administration has to deal with: teacher retention, chronic absenteeism, addressing the large chunk of students that are way below grade level. Let’s assume your child is the gifted genius you claim him to be. Maybe they see a child like that once a decade. You show up at their office door and demand your kid is placed in algebra because you’ve heard that at Frost kids with at least 250 on MAP get this treatment. You go on a rambling about fairness, MLK, opportunity hoarding and how your kids chances at TJ are compromised because they don’t put him in Algebra. I’m not surprised with the outcome you got. This being said there are opportunities you can pursue, but you’re too busy being a victim and going on your tiny little fairness crusade. Good luck, I hope you succeed!

250 is a pretty normal MAP score in MCPS.

For the billionth time, the test is not the same.

You are an idiot and don’t understand what you are talking about. The 3-5 test IS the same test but it adapts to ability, regardless of grade or age. Which means it’s comparable.

Computer adaptive means that the sequence of questions is dependent on how each question is answered, but the questions are chosen from the bank of the test. For MAP there are two versions of the test MAP 2-5, and MAP 6+ that have a different set of bank questions. Both have the same scale of scores, and the scores are somewhat equivalent, but the equivalency is not that accurate at the ends of the scale. A 250 on the MAP 2-5 would mostly test lower grade arithmetic content, while a 250 on the MAP 6+ tests well into algebra content. That’s why sometimes you see a dip in scores from 5th to 6th grade tests especially at the high end. Even within these two version there are subversions adjusted to state standards etc., you can also specify instructional area by grades, so it’s possible that each district chooses a version of the test that best fits their needs.

You can see the version description here:
https://teach.mapnwea.org/impl/maphelp/Content/AboutMAP/MAPTestDescription.htm

When a student takes the test, there’s a detailed report called Learning Continuum (it’s 30+ pages long), that breaks down the concepts the student understands at 75%, 50%, and 25% mastery. This report is more informative for student placement, because it is broken down in items like ‘inverse of a quadratic function (251-260)’.

I’d suggest that when you share your boundless knowledge on how MAP testing works, you post a link so we can evaluate independently your claims. It’s amazing how complete ignoramuses consider themselves experts just because they got a map test results letter in their mailbox.

Nothing you have said contradicts anything I’ve said. What is wrong is to say that the third grade test is not comparable with the 5th grade test. It is. No master how many times you claim otherwise, if a 3rd grade child has the same knowledge and abilities (and test taking aptitude) as a 5th grade child they will score the same.

You’re playing stupid on purpose or you’re just plain stupid. On this thread we’re are discussing MAP testing in the context of Algebra 1 placement for 6th grade. Some moron comparing himself to Martin Luther King, quoted his child’s MAP score in 3rd grade as evidence the child should be allowed to take that class. The nuanced answer is that for placement purposes it really depends what content was tested, and it’s perfectly possible the school was correct in denying Algebra 1 in 6th for that student because it was not appropriate. Then said moron cries unfairness all over this board and claims he’s fighting for fairness.

I suggest that you go back and reread the thread and then come back and apologize. Kids don’t take the sixth grade test until, duh, they are in 6th grade. Class placement decisions are taken in 5th grade ergo the only MAP test that anyone is looking at for 6th grade placement is the 3-5th test. Some schools (mostly wealthy ones but not the magnet middle schools) will consider placing kids with 250 or higher IN FIFTH GRADE on the 3-5 grade MAP test in 6th grade algebra. Their 6th grade score is irrelevant because that isn’t taken until they are already in 6th. The PP (who didn’t combats themself to MLK, someone else did) was saying that not only did their child exceed that 250 requirement in 5th but they got there in 3rd which IS directly comparable. Got it????

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I think this is off too. Going from 260s to 290s while they are at home doing normal 3-5th grade homework and maybe some supplement just wouldn’t happen. I can’t imagine the type of out school work a kid would be doing to have these gains. My child has ranged from high 250s-low 260s in 3,4, and now 5th grade. So it is clear he has a high level of math skill but also hasn’t been learning anything new in a long time. We try at home, but we our best at home, it isn’t enough. I think ultimately he would benefit from being in an actual math class at school that is teaching him new material, which is why I’m considering alg I in 6th grade. I expect it to be a mix of some review and some new material.

From my experience: our child scored 275 on NWEA MAP 2-5 in 4th grade (due to Covid acceleration), got a raw 60/60 on the IAAT in 5th grade, perfect SOL - they're now completing Algebra I in sixth grade.
Although only about 2.5% of their cohort was admitted to Algebra in 6th grade, it's clear that some of the other kids shouldn't be there and a dragging down the level of instruction compared to what could be done. (They score 80-90% on tests that allow Desmos...)

Unfortunately, if I were you, I'd still be pushing for Algebra in 6th grade for the alternative of more school-level prealgebra is worse and a waste of time.


But I would have my child go deeper in prep: make sure they're at the mastery level of all Alcumus Prealgebra subjects, and potentially pay for them to take the online version of Prealgebra 1 + 2 at AoPS (or the in-person version if you can afford the money and logistics). We also did their Algebra A course when our child was in 5th grade. Then school-level Algebra I will indeed be mostly review and they can focus on working ahead on the Geometry and Intermediate Algebra, which we're addressing now.

Also make sure they participate in AMC-8, Math Kangaroo, and Mathcounts and engage in regular practice there.

It seems you essentially homeschool your child. Not sure why he’s taking 6th grade Algebra at this point, maybe for credit or because it’s the most accelerated path available at the school.

What is really rubbing me the wrong way is how you claim the other kids scoring in the 80-90% don’t belong to that class, when in fact it’s your own child that doesn’t belong there having already completed the material. You have the expectation that 6th grade algebra should somehow be modified to match your child’s level and not the level of the other students in the class that were placed appropriately.

Kudos to the kids that work hard, but sometimes the parents of these children are so insufferable and disparage other kids when most likely there are equally as bright, but just don’t have the early exposure to accelerate them along the math pathway.

The 6th graders in algebra should do better than that, and are elsewhere the top students in the class.

Meanwhile, at title one schools students are denied these opportunities despite being the top students in their class

No they are not. Title one schools all offer algebra I, typically to 8th graders, where there is low participation anyhow. The amount of 6th graders that could qualify to take it are very very few, probably one every few yrs. There are few 6th graders doing this even in the best districts. Majority of schools would have zero issue putting a 6th grader in it since there is so little demand and it is an easy accommodation.

Oh really? That is NOT TRUE. Please name a single title-1 school that offers Pre-Algebra to 5th graders like the wealthy elemenataries. Some wealthy MS offer Algebra 1 to any 6th graders who score over 250 on their 5th grade MAP-M. Well, DC scored over 250 on the same test in 3rd grade. I remember asking the principal of our title-1 school if there was anything they could offer them since they were not challenged. They said sorry we don't offer that here.

This just means that you have an inflexible principal, or it means that your child is not the outlier that you perceive him to be. It doesn't mean that opportunities are lacking in Title I schools writ large. My kid tested off the charts at a Title I school. The school math resource teacher met one on one with my child to assess his math level and the proper placement. He ultimately ended up skipping 2/3 grade levels of math, taking IAAT and 7th grade SOL when in 4th grade and Algebra in 5th. Title I schools might not have sufficient cohort to offer Pre-Algebra in general to 5th graders. They absolutely can and will allow an individual child to join a higher grade level for math class when the child is otherwise an outlier.

You are in VA so it's a bit different can MCPS. 250 isn't abnormal in MCPS for MAP in 3rd but it's the 5th grade that counts. Only one school offers aim and it really doesn't matter. Supplement at home. About 1/3 the middle schools allow Algebra in 6th but only a select few are allowed or choose to do it. Otherwise smart kids take Algebra in 7th. Not a big deal either way. I would not have wanted my child to take AIM in 5th. Starting Algebra with out AIM was fine but child did do a summer prep class to make sure they could handle it.

The thing that gets me about all this is how parents use the acceleration that is only available at a handful of wealthy schools as a golden ticket to unlock programs like TJ and later complain how it's gone downhill when fewer privileged students are now admitted because the county adopts a more equitable admissions policy.

Yeah this is incorrect. Acceleration for 7th grade algebra is available at all middle schools and gifted children can be identified for AAP at all elementary schools. 6th grade algebra is rare in FCPS for everyone but it happens and would probably shake out wearier for a kid destined for AAP. A kid isn’t showing up at a title I school in FCPS in 5th grade all the sudden ready for algebra the next year and no one has noticed. You don’t gotta lie to kick it.

They are rambling about MCPS where there may be one school that offers AIM. AIM meaning pre-algbra in 5th. Most kids take Algebra in 7/8, some 9th. Some MS offer Algebra in 6th but its maybe under 25 students per school, if offered. They are mixed in with the 7/8 graders. Pre-Algebra for 5th is a bit absurd except for a genius level student.

Yes, 1-2 of the wealthiest schools in the county provide algebra in 6th, but the majority do not.

Correct acceleration is only widely available to the wealthiest schools. There are plenty of qualified students elsewhere. They just don't get to access the same opportunities. When some parents complain, there are fewer students entering TJ who have taken algebra 2 and 8th grade. It is an indication that the selection process is now more equitable. Previously, this was used as a golden ticket to advantage students from the wealthiest schools.

+1
I’d be ok raising the minimum math bar to Algebra 1 in 7th. Each school does have AAP testing of all kids so all are eligible to get into AAP. All AAP kids are tested for algebra 1 for 7th so again this is open to all. Any leg up for math beyond that though is NOT available at all schools so is not appropriate to give plus points for.

One thing I like about MCPS approach with their STEM magnets is students who took Honors Geo or Algebra 2 in 8th can enter at the same level for HS math. There are 2 options, and it's more of a choice:

Functions: Covers Algebra 2 and Prealgebra in 2 semesters. It is rigorous, and there is screening for this. It can involve 2-4 hours of homework a night and half the class drops in the first month.

Magnet PreCalc: 3-semester Algebra 2 and Precalc.

The point is this puts kids on even footing. Maybe TJ already does something similar....

By the time kids get to high school they are not on equal footing. Just because they are in the same class doesn’t mean the starting point is the same. It should be obvious that students who went through algebra 2 will be better prepared to tackle algebra 2 content. Is it possible that some kids might catch up? Sure, but that’s the exception to the rule.

We’re talking about Blair magnet kids. These aren’t ordinary kids. They are motivated and the very best in the entire country. Of course they can handle it.

Isn’t this contradicted by the fact that half the class drops it in the first month? Seems to me that not everyone can handle it.

You’re talking about functions, I’m talking about the regular accelerated magnet track.

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I think this is off too. Going from 260s to 290s while they are at home doing normal 3-5th grade homework and maybe some supplement just wouldn’t happen. I can’t imagine the type of out school work a kid would be doing to have these gains. My child has ranged from high 250s-low 260s in 3,4, and now 5th grade. So it is clear he has a high level of math skill but also hasn’t been learning anything new in a long time. We try at home, but we our best at home, it isn’t enough. I think ultimately he would benefit from being in an actual math class at school that is teaching him new material, which is why I’m considering alg I in 6th grade. I expect it to be a mix of some review and some new material.

From my experience: our child scored 275 on NWEA MAP 2-5 in 4th grade (due to Covid acceleration), got a raw 60/60 on the IAAT in 5th grade, perfect SOL - they're now completing Algebra I in sixth grade.
Although only about 2.5% of their cohort was admitted to Algebra in 6th grade, it's clear that some of the other kids shouldn't be there and a dragging down the level of instruction compared to what could be done. (They score 80-90% on tests that allow Desmos...)

Unfortunately, if I were you, I'd still be pushing for Algebra in 6th grade for the alternative of more school-level prealgebra is worse and a waste of time.


But I would have my child go deeper in prep: make sure they're at the mastery level of all Alcumus Prealgebra subjects, and potentially pay for them to take the online version of Prealgebra 1 + 2 at AoPS (or the in-person version if you can afford the money and logistics). We also did their Algebra A course when our child was in 5th grade. Then school-level Algebra I will indeed be mostly review and they can focus on working ahead on the Geometry and Intermediate Algebra, which we're addressing now.

Also make sure they participate in AMC-8, Math Kangaroo, and Mathcounts and engage in regular practice there.

It seems you essentially homeschool your child. Not sure why he’s taking 6th grade Algebra at this point, maybe for credit or because it’s the most accelerated path available at the school.

What is really rubbing me the wrong way is how you claim the other kids scoring in the 80-90% don’t belong to that class, when in fact it’s your own child that doesn’t belong there having already completed the material. You have the expectation that 6th grade algebra should somehow be modified to match your child’s level and not the level of the other students in the class that were placed appropriately.

Kudos to the kids that work hard, but sometimes the parents of these children are so insufferable and disparage other kids when most likely there are equally as bright, but just don’t have the early exposure to accelerate them along the math pathway.

The 6th graders in algebra should do better than that, and are elsewhere the top students in the class.

Meanwhile, at title one schools students are denied these opportunities despite being the top students in their class

No they are not. Title one schools all offer algebra I, typically to 8th graders, where there is low participation anyhow. The amount of 6th graders that could qualify to take it are very very few, probably one every few yrs. There are few 6th graders doing this even in the best districts. Majority of schools would have zero issue putting a 6th grader in it since there is so little demand and it is an easy accommodation.

Oh really? That is NOT TRUE. Please name a single title-1 school that offers Pre-Algebra to 5th graders like the wealthy elemenataries. Some wealthy MS offer Algebra 1 to any 6th graders who score over 250 on their 5th grade MAP-M. Well, DC scored over 250 on the same test in 3rd grade. I remember asking the principal of our title-1 school if there was anything they could offer them since they were not challenged. They said sorry we don't offer that here.

This just means that you have an inflexible principal, or it means that your child is not the outlier that you perceive him to be. It doesn't mean that opportunities are lacking in Title I schools writ large. My kid tested off the charts at a Title I school. The school math resource teacher met one on one with my child to assess his math level and the proper placement. He ultimately ended up skipping 2/3 grade levels of math, taking IAAT and 7th grade SOL when in 4th grade and Algebra in 5th. Title I schools might not have sufficient cohort to offer Pre-Algebra in general to 5th graders. They absolutely can and will allow an individual child to join a higher grade level for math class when the child is otherwise an outlier.

You are in VA so it's a bit different can MCPS. 250 isn't abnormal in MCPS for MAP in 3rd but it's the 5th grade that counts. Only one school offers aim and it really doesn't matter. Supplement at home. About 1/3 the middle schools allow Algebra in 6th but only a select few are allowed or choose to do it. Otherwise smart kids take Algebra in 7th. Not a big deal either way. I would not have wanted my child to take AIM in 5th. Starting Algebra with out AIM was fine but child did do a summer prep class to make sure they could handle it.

The thing that gets me about all this is how parents use the acceleration that is only available at a handful of wealthy schools as a golden ticket to unlock programs like TJ and later complain how it's gone downhill when fewer privileged students are now admitted because the county adopts a more equitable admissions policy.

Yeah this is incorrect. Acceleration for 7th grade algebra is available at all middle schools and gifted children can be identified for AAP at all elementary schools. 6th grade algebra is rare in FCPS for everyone but it happens and would probably shake out wearier for a kid destined for AAP. A kid isn’t showing up at a title I school in FCPS in 5th grade all the sudden ready for algebra the next year and no one has noticed. You don’t gotta lie to kick it.

They are rambling about MCPS where there may be one school that offers AIM. AIM meaning pre-algbra in 5th. Most kids take Algebra in 7/8, some 9th. Some MS offer Algebra in 6th but its maybe under 25 students per school, if offered. They are mixed in with the 7/8 graders. Pre-Algebra for 5th is a bit absurd except for a genius level student.

Yes, 1-2 of the wealthiest schools in the county provide algebra in 6th, but the majority do not.

Yes, because there’s a cohort of students and qualified teachers that make offering algebra 1 in 6 feasible. At your average title 1 school there are many other things the administration has to deal with: teacher retention, chronic absenteeism, addressing the large chunk of students that are way below grade level. Let’s assume your child is the gifted genius you claim him to be. Maybe they see a child like that once a decade. You show up at their office door and demand your kid is placed in algebra because you’ve heard that at Frost kids with at least 250 on MAP get this treatment. You go on a rambling about fairness, MLK, opportunity hoarding and how your kids chances at TJ are compromised because they don’t put him in Algebra. I’m not surprised with the outcome you got. This being said there are opportunities you can pursue, but you’re too busy being a victim and going on your tiny little fairness crusade. Good luck, I hope you succeed!

250 is a pretty normal MAP score in MCPS.

For the billionth time, the test is not the same.

You are an idiot and don’t understand what you are talking about. The 3-5 test IS the same test but it adapts to ability, regardless of grade or age. Which means it’s comparable.

Computer adaptive means that the sequence of questions is dependent on how each question is answered, but the questions are chosen from the bank of the test. For MAP there are two versions of the test MAP 2-5, and MAP 6+ that have a different set of bank questions. Both have the same scale of scores, and the scores are somewhat equivalent, but the equivalency is not that accurate at the ends of the scale. A 250 on the MAP 2-5 would mostly test lower grade arithmetic content, while a 250 on the MAP 6+ tests well into algebra content. That’s why sometimes you see a dip in scores from 5th to 6th grade tests especially at the high end. Even within these two version there are subversions adjusted to state standards etc., you can also specify instructional area by grades, so it’s possible that each district chooses a version of the test that best fits their needs.

You can see the version description here:
https://teach.mapnwea.org/impl/maphelp/Content/AboutMAP/MAPTestDescription.htm

When a student takes the test, there’s a detailed report called Learning Continuum (it’s 30+ pages long), that breaks down the concepts the student understands at 75%, 50%, and 25% mastery. This report is more informative for student placement, because it is broken down in items like ‘inverse of a quadratic function (251-260)’.

I’d suggest that when you share your boundless knowledge on how MAP testing works, you post a link so we can evaluate independently your claims. It’s amazing how complete ignoramuses consider themselves experts just because they got a map test results letter in their mailbox.

Nothing you have said contradicts anything I’ve said. What is wrong is to say that the third grade test is not comparable with the 5th grade test. It is. No master how many times you claim otherwise, if a 3rd grade child has the same knowledge and abilities (and test taking aptitude) as a 5th grade child they will score the same.

You’re playing stupid on purpose or you’re just plain stupid. On this thread we’re are discussing MAP testing in the context of Algebra 1 placement for 6th grade. Some moron comparing himself to Martin Luther King, quoted his child’s MAP score in 3rd grade as evidence the child should be allowed to take that class. The nuanced answer is that for placement purposes it really depends what content was tested, and it’s perfectly possible the school was correct in denying Algebra 1 in 6th for that student because it was not appropriate. Then said moron cries unfairness all over this board and claims he’s fighting for fairness.

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I think this is off too. Going from 260s to 290s while they are at home doing normal 3-5th grade homework and maybe some supplement just wouldn’t happen. I can’t imagine the type of out school work a kid would be doing to have these gains. My child has ranged from high 250s-low 260s in 3,4, and now 5th grade. So it is clear he has a high level of math skill but also hasn’t been learning anything new in a long time. We try at home, but we our best at home, it isn’t enough. I think ultimately he would benefit from being in an actual math class at school that is teaching him new material, which is why I’m considering alg I in 6th grade. I expect it to be a mix of some review and some new material.

From my experience: our child scored 275 on NWEA MAP 2-5 in 4th grade (due to Covid acceleration), got a raw 60/60 on the IAAT in 5th grade, perfect SOL - they're now completing Algebra I in sixth grade.
Although only about 2.5% of their cohort was admitted to Algebra in 6th grade, it's clear that some of the other kids shouldn't be there and a dragging down the level of instruction compared to what could be done. (They score 80-90% on tests that allow Desmos...)

Unfortunately, if I were you, I'd still be pushing for Algebra in 6th grade for the alternative of more school-level prealgebra is worse and a waste of time.


But I would have my child go deeper in prep: make sure they're at the mastery level of all Alcumus Prealgebra subjects, and potentially pay for them to take the online version of Prealgebra 1 + 2 at AoPS (or the in-person version if you can afford the money and logistics). We also did their Algebra A course when our child was in 5th grade. Then school-level Algebra I will indeed be mostly review and they can focus on working ahead on the Geometry and Intermediate Algebra, which we're addressing now.

Also make sure they participate in AMC-8, Math Kangaroo, and Mathcounts and engage in regular practice there.

It seems you essentially homeschool your child. Not sure why he’s taking 6th grade Algebra at this point, maybe for credit or because it’s the most accelerated path available at the school.

What is really rubbing me the wrong way is how you claim the other kids scoring in the 80-90% don’t belong to that class, when in fact it’s your own child that doesn’t belong there having already completed the material. You have the expectation that 6th grade algebra should somehow be modified to match your child’s level and not the level of the other students in the class that were placed appropriately.

Kudos to the kids that work hard, but sometimes the parents of these children are so insufferable and disparage other kids when most likely there are equally as bright, but just don’t have the early exposure to accelerate them along the math pathway.

The 6th graders in algebra should do better than that, and are elsewhere the top students in the class.

Meanwhile, at title one schools students are denied these opportunities despite being the top students in their class

No they are not. Title one schools all offer algebra I, typically to 8th graders, where there is low participation anyhow. The amount of 6th graders that could qualify to take it are very very few, probably one every few yrs. There are few 6th graders doing this even in the best districts. Majority of schools would have zero issue putting a 6th grader in it since there is so little demand and it is an easy accommodation.

Oh really? That is NOT TRUE. Please name a single title-1 school that offers Pre-Algebra to 5th graders like the wealthy elemenataries. Some wealthy MS offer Algebra 1 to any 6th graders who score over 250 on their 5th grade MAP-M. Well, DC scored over 250 on the same test in 3rd grade. I remember asking the principal of our title-1 school if there was anything they could offer them since they were not challenged. They said sorry we don't offer that here.

This just means that you have an inflexible principal, or it means that your child is not the outlier that you perceive him to be. It doesn't mean that opportunities are lacking in Title I schools writ large. My kid tested off the charts at a Title I school. The school math resource teacher met one on one with my child to assess his math level and the proper placement. He ultimately ended up skipping 2/3 grade levels of math, taking IAAT and 7th grade SOL when in 4th grade and Algebra in 5th. Title I schools might not have sufficient cohort to offer Pre-Algebra in general to 5th graders. They absolutely can and will allow an individual child to join a higher grade level for math class when the child is otherwise an outlier.

You are in VA so it's a bit different can MCPS. 250 isn't abnormal in MCPS for MAP in 3rd but it's the 5th grade that counts. Only one school offers aim and it really doesn't matter. Supplement at home. About 1/3 the middle schools allow Algebra in 6th but only a select few are allowed or choose to do it. Otherwise smart kids take Algebra in 7th. Not a big deal either way. I would not have wanted my child to take AIM in 5th. Starting Algebra with out AIM was fine but child did do a summer prep class to make sure they could handle it.

The thing that gets me about all this is how parents use the acceleration that is only available at a handful of wealthy schools as a golden ticket to unlock programs like TJ and later complain how it's gone downhill when fewer privileged students are now admitted because the county adopts a more equitable admissions policy.

Yeah this is incorrect. Acceleration for 7th grade algebra is available at all middle schools and gifted children can be identified for AAP at all elementary schools. 6th grade algebra is rare in FCPS for everyone but it happens and would probably shake out wearier for a kid destined for AAP. A kid isn’t showing up at a title I school in FCPS in 5th grade all the sudden ready for algebra the next year and no one has noticed. You don’t gotta lie to kick it.

They are rambling about MCPS where there may be one school that offers AIM. AIM meaning pre-algbra in 5th. Most kids take Algebra in 7/8, some 9th. Some MS offer Algebra in 6th but its maybe under 25 students per school, if offered. They are mixed in with the 7/8 graders. Pre-Algebra for 5th is a bit absurd except for a genius level student.

Yes, 1-2 of the wealthiest schools in the county provide algebra in 6th, but the majority do not.

Correct acceleration is only widely available to the wealthiest schools. There are plenty of qualified students elsewhere. They just don't get to access the same opportunities. When some parents complain, there are fewer students entering TJ who have taken algebra 2 and 8th grade. It is an indication that the selection process is now more equitable. Previously, this was used as a golden ticket to advantage students from the wealthiest schools.

+1
I’d be ok raising the minimum math bar to Algebra 1 in 7th. Each school does have AAP testing of all kids so all are eligible to get into AAP. All AAP kids are tested for algebra 1 for 7th so again this is open to all. Any leg up for math beyond that though is NOT available at all schools so is not appropriate to give plus points for.

One thing I like about MCPS approach with their STEM magnets is students who took Honors Geo or Algebra 2 in 8th can enter at the same level for HS math. There are 2 options, and it's more of a choice:

Functions: Covers Algebra 2 and Prealgebra in 2 semesters. It is rigorous, and there is screening for this. It can involve 2-4 hours of homework a night and half the class drops in the first month.

Magnet PreCalc: 3-semester Algebra 2 and Precalc.

The point is this puts kids on even footing. Maybe TJ already does something similar....

By the time kids get to high school they are not on equal footing. Just because they are in the same class doesn’t mean the starting point is the same. It should be obvious that students who went through algebra 2 will be better prepared to tackle algebra 2 content. Is it possible that some kids might catch up? Sure, but that’s the exception to the rule.

We’re talking about Blair magnet kids. These aren’t ordinary kids. They are motivated and the very best in the entire country. Of course they can handle it.

Isn’t this contradicted by the fact that half the class drops it in the first month? Seems to me that not everyone can handle it.

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I think this is off too. Going from 260s to 290s while they are at home doing normal 3-5th grade homework and maybe some supplement just wouldn’t happen. I can’t imagine the type of out school work a kid would be doing to have these gains. My child has ranged from high 250s-low 260s in 3,4, and now 5th grade. So it is clear he has a high level of math skill but also hasn’t been learning anything new in a long time. We try at home, but we our best at home, it isn’t enough. I think ultimately he would benefit from being in an actual math class at school that is teaching him new material, which is why I’m considering alg I in 6th grade. I expect it to be a mix of some review and some new material.

From my experience: our child scored 275 on NWEA MAP 2-5 in 4th grade (due to Covid acceleration), got a raw 60/60 on the IAAT in 5th grade, perfect SOL - they're now completing Algebra I in sixth grade.
Although only about 2.5% of their cohort was admitted to Algebra in 6th grade, it's clear that some of the other kids shouldn't be there and a dragging down the level of instruction compared to what could be done. (They score 80-90% on tests that allow Desmos...)

Unfortunately, if I were you, I'd still be pushing for Algebra in 6th grade for the alternative of more school-level prealgebra is worse and a waste of time.


But I would have my child go deeper in prep: make sure they're at the mastery level of all Alcumus Prealgebra subjects, and potentially pay for them to take the online version of Prealgebra 1 + 2 at AoPS (or the in-person version if you can afford the money and logistics). We also did their Algebra A course when our child was in 5th grade. Then school-level Algebra I will indeed be mostly review and they can focus on working ahead on the Geometry and Intermediate Algebra, which we're addressing now.

Also make sure they participate in AMC-8, Math Kangaroo, and Mathcounts and engage in regular practice there.

It seems you essentially homeschool your child. Not sure why he’s taking 6th grade Algebra at this point, maybe for credit or because it’s the most accelerated path available at the school.

What is really rubbing me the wrong way is how you claim the other kids scoring in the 80-90% don’t belong to that class, when in fact it’s your own child that doesn’t belong there having already completed the material. You have the expectation that 6th grade algebra should somehow be modified to match your child’s level and not the level of the other students in the class that were placed appropriately.

Kudos to the kids that work hard, but sometimes the parents of these children are so insufferable and disparage other kids when most likely there are equally as bright, but just don’t have the early exposure to accelerate them along the math pathway.

The 6th graders in algebra should do better than that, and are elsewhere the top students in the class.

Meanwhile, at title one schools students are denied these opportunities despite being the top students in their class

No they are not. Title one schools all offer algebra I, typically to 8th graders, where there is low participation anyhow. The amount of 6th graders that could qualify to take it are very very few, probably one every few yrs. There are few 6th graders doing this even in the best districts. Majority of schools would have zero issue putting a 6th grader in it since there is so little demand and it is an easy accommodation.

Oh really? That is NOT TRUE. Please name a single title-1 school that offers Pre-Algebra to 5th graders like the wealthy elemenataries. Some wealthy MS offer Algebra 1 to any 6th graders who score over 250 on their 5th grade MAP-M. Well, DC scored over 250 on the same test in 3rd grade. I remember asking the principal of our title-1 school if there was anything they could offer them since they were not challenged. They said sorry we don't offer that here.

This just means that you have an inflexible principal, or it means that your child is not the outlier that you perceive him to be. It doesn't mean that opportunities are lacking in Title I schools writ large. My kid tested off the charts at a Title I school. The school math resource teacher met one on one with my child to assess his math level and the proper placement. He ultimately ended up skipping 2/3 grade levels of math, taking IAAT and 7th grade SOL when in 4th grade and Algebra in 5th. Title I schools might not have sufficient cohort to offer Pre-Algebra in general to 5th graders. They absolutely can and will allow an individual child to join a higher grade level for math class when the child is otherwise an outlier.

You are in VA so it's a bit different can MCPS. 250 isn't abnormal in MCPS for MAP in 3rd but it's the 5th grade that counts. Only one school offers aim and it really doesn't matter. Supplement at home. About 1/3 the middle schools allow Algebra in 6th but only a select few are allowed or choose to do it. Otherwise smart kids take Algebra in 7th. Not a big deal either way. I would not have wanted my child to take AIM in 5th. Starting Algebra with out AIM was fine but child did do a summer prep class to make sure they could handle it.

The thing that gets me about all this is how parents use the acceleration that is only available at a handful of wealthy schools as a golden ticket to unlock programs like TJ and later complain how it's gone downhill when fewer privileged students are now admitted because the county adopts a more equitable admissions policy.

Yeah this is incorrect. Acceleration for 7th grade algebra is available at all middle schools and gifted children can be identified for AAP at all elementary schools. 6th grade algebra is rare in FCPS for everyone but it happens and would probably shake out wearier for a kid destined for AAP. A kid isn’t showing up at a title I school in FCPS in 5th grade all the sudden ready for algebra the next year and no one has noticed. You don’t gotta lie to kick it.

They are rambling about MCPS where there may be one school that offers AIM. AIM meaning pre-algbra in 5th. Most kids take Algebra in 7/8, some 9th. Some MS offer Algebra in 6th but its maybe under 25 students per school, if offered. They are mixed in with the 7/8 graders. Pre-Algebra for 5th is a bit absurd except for a genius level student.

Yes, 1-2 of the wealthiest schools in the county provide algebra in 6th, but the majority do not.

Yes, because there’s a cohort of students and qualified teachers that make offering algebra 1 in 6 feasible. At your average title 1 school there are many other things the administration has to deal with: teacher retention, chronic absenteeism, addressing the large chunk of students that are way below grade level. Let’s assume your child is the gifted genius you claim him to be. Maybe they see a child like that once a decade. You show up at their office door and demand your kid is placed in algebra because you’ve heard that at Frost kids with at least 250 on MAP get this treatment. You go on a rambling about fairness, MLK, opportunity hoarding and how your kids chances at TJ are compromised because they don’t put him in Algebra. I’m not surprised with the outcome you got. This being said there are opportunities you can pursue, but you’re too busy being a victim and going on your tiny little fairness crusade. Good luck, I hope you succeed!

250 is a pretty normal MAP score in MCPS.

For the billionth time, the test is not the same.

You are an idiot and don’t understand what you are talking about. The 3-5 test IS the same test but it adapts to ability, regardless of grade or age. Which means it’s comparable.

Computer adaptive means that the sequence of questions is dependent on how each question is answered, but the questions are chosen from the bank of the test. For MAP there are two versions of the test MAP 2-5, and MAP 6+ that have a different set of bank questions. Both have the same scale of scores, and the scores are somewhat equivalent, but the equivalency is not that accurate at the ends of the scale. A 250 on the MAP 2-5 would mostly test lower grade arithmetic content, while a 250 on the MAP 6+ tests well into algebra content. That’s why sometimes you see a dip in scores from 5th to 6th grade tests especially at the high end. Even within these two version there are subversions adjusted to state standards etc., you can also specify instructional area by grades, so it’s possible that each district chooses a version of the test that best fits their needs.

You can see the version description here:
https://teach.mapnwea.org/impl/maphelp/Content/AboutMAP/MAPTestDescription.htm

When a student takes the test, there’s a detailed report called Learning Continuum (it’s 30+ pages long), that breaks down the concepts the student understands at 75%, 50%, and 25% mastery. This report is more informative for student placement, because it is broken down in items like ‘inverse of a quadratic function (251-260)’.

I’d suggest that when you share your boundless knowledge on how MAP testing works, you post a link so we can evaluate independently your claims. It’s amazing how complete ignoramuses consider themselves experts just because they got a map test results letter in their mailbox.

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Anonymous wrote:
I think this is off too. Going from 260s to 290s while they are at home doing normal 3-5th grade homework and maybe some supplement just wouldn’t happen. I can’t imagine the type of out school work a kid would be doing to have these gains. My child has ranged from high 250s-low 260s in 3,4, and now 5th grade. So it is clear he has a high level of math skill but also hasn’t been learning anything new in a long time. We try at home, but we our best at home, it isn’t enough. I think ultimately he would benefit from being in an actual math class at school that is teaching him new material, which is why I’m considering alg I in 6th grade. I expect it to be a mix of some review and some new material.

From my experience: our child scored 275 on NWEA MAP 2-5 in 4th grade (due to Covid acceleration), got a raw 60/60 on the IAAT in 5th grade, perfect SOL - they're now completing Algebra I in sixth grade.
Although only about 2.5% of their cohort was admitted to Algebra in 6th grade, it's clear that some of the other kids shouldn't be there and a dragging down the level of instruction compared to what could be done. (They score 80-90% on tests that allow Desmos...)

Unfortunately, if I were you, I'd still be pushing for Algebra in 6th grade for the alternative of more school-level prealgebra is worse and a waste of time.


But I would have my child go deeper in prep: make sure they're at the mastery level of all Alcumus Prealgebra subjects, and potentially pay for them to take the online version of Prealgebra 1 + 2 at AoPS (or the in-person version if you can afford the money and logistics). We also did their Algebra A course when our child was in 5th grade. Then school-level Algebra I will indeed be mostly review and they can focus on working ahead on the Geometry and Intermediate Algebra, which we're addressing now.

Also make sure they participate in AMC-8, Math Kangaroo, and Mathcounts and engage in regular practice there.

It seems you essentially homeschool your child. Not sure why he’s taking 6th grade Algebra at this point, maybe for credit or because it’s the most accelerated path available at the school.

What is really rubbing me the wrong way is how you claim the other kids scoring in the 80-90% don’t belong to that class, when in fact it’s your own child that doesn’t belong there having already completed the material. You have the expectation that 6th grade algebra should somehow be modified to match your child’s level and not the level of the other students in the class that were placed appropriately.

Kudos to the kids that work hard, but sometimes the parents of these children are so insufferable and disparage other kids when most likely there are equally as bright, but just don’t have the early exposure to accelerate them along the math pathway.

The 6th graders in algebra should do better than that, and are elsewhere the top students in the class.

Meanwhile, at title one schools students are denied these opportunities despite being the top students in their class

No they are not. Title one schools all offer algebra I, typically to 8th graders, where there is low participation anyhow. The amount of 6th graders that could qualify to take it are very very few, probably one every few yrs. There are few 6th graders doing this even in the best districts. Majority of schools would have zero issue putting a 6th grader in it since there is so little demand and it is an easy accommodation.

Oh really? That is NOT TRUE. Please name a single title-1 school that offers Pre-Algebra to 5th graders like the wealthy elemenataries. Some wealthy MS offer Algebra 1 to any 6th graders who score over 250 on their 5th grade MAP-M. Well, DC scored over 250 on the same test in 3rd grade. I remember asking the principal of our title-1 school if there was anything they could offer them since they were not challenged. They said sorry we don't offer that here.

This just means that you have an inflexible principal, or it means that your child is not the outlier that you perceive him to be. It doesn't mean that opportunities are lacking in Title I schools writ large. My kid tested off the charts at a Title I school. The school math resource teacher met one on one with my child to assess his math level and the proper placement. He ultimately ended up skipping 2/3 grade levels of math, taking IAAT and 7th grade SOL when in 4th grade and Algebra in 5th. Title I schools might not have sufficient cohort to offer Pre-Algebra in general to 5th graders. They absolutely can and will allow an individual child to join a higher grade level for math class when the child is otherwise an outlier.

You are in VA so it's a bit different can MCPS. 250 isn't abnormal in MCPS for MAP in 3rd but it's the 5th grade that counts. Only one school offers aim and it really doesn't matter. Supplement at home. About 1/3 the middle schools allow Algebra in 6th but only a select few are allowed or choose to do it. Otherwise smart kids take Algebra in 7th. Not a big deal either way. I would not have wanted my child to take AIM in 5th. Starting Algebra with out AIM was fine but child did do a summer prep class to make sure they could handle it.

The thing that gets me about all this is how parents use the acceleration that is only available at a handful of wealthy schools as a golden ticket to unlock programs like TJ and later complain how it's gone downhill when fewer privileged students are now admitted because the county adopts a more equitable admissions policy.

Yeah this is incorrect. Acceleration for 7th grade algebra is available at all middle schools and gifted children can be identified for AAP at all elementary schools. 6th grade algebra is rare in FCPS for everyone but it happens and would probably shake out wearier for a kid destined for AAP. A kid isn’t showing up at a title I school in FCPS in 5th grade all the sudden ready for algebra the next year and no one has noticed. You don’t gotta lie to kick it.

They are rambling about MCPS where there may be one school that offers AIM. AIM meaning pre-algbra in 5th. Most kids take Algebra in 7/8, some 9th. Some MS offer Algebra in 6th but its maybe under 25 students per school, if offered. They are mixed in with the 7/8 graders. Pre-Algebra for 5th is a bit absurd except for a genius level student.

Yes, 1-2 of the wealthiest schools in the county provide algebra in 6th, but the majority do not.

Correct acceleration is only widely available to the wealthiest schools. There are plenty of qualified students elsewhere. They just don't get to access the same opportunities. When some parents complain, there are fewer students entering TJ who have taken algebra 2 and 8th grade. It is an indication that the selection process is now more equitable. Previously, this was used as a golden ticket to advantage students from the wealthiest schools.

+1
I’d be ok raising the minimum math bar to Algebra 1 in 7th. Each school does have AAP testing of all kids so all are eligible to get into AAP. All AAP kids are tested for algebra 1 for 7th so again this is open to all. Any leg up for math beyond that though is NOT available at all schools so is not appropriate to give plus points for.

One thing I like about MCPS approach with their STEM magnets is students who took Honors Geo or Algebra 2 in 8th can enter at the same level for HS math. There are 2 options, and it's more of a choice:

Functions: Covers Algebra 2 and Prealgebra in 2 semesters. It is rigorous, and there is screening for this. It can involve 2-4 hours of homework a night and half the class drops in the first month.

Magnet PreCalc: 3-semester Algebra 2 and Precalc.

The point is this puts kids on even footing. Maybe TJ already does something similar....

By the time kids get to high school they are not on equal footing. Just because they are in the same class doesn’t mean the starting point is the same. It should be obvious that students who went through algebra 2 will be better prepared to tackle algebra 2 content. Is it possible that some kids might catch up? Sure, but that’s the exception to the rule.

We’re talking about Blair magnet kids. These aren’t ordinary kids. They are motivated and the very best in the entire country. Of course they can handle it.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
I think this is off too. Going from 260s to 290s while they are at home doing normal 3-5th grade homework and maybe some supplement just wouldn’t happen. I can’t imagine the type of out school work a kid would be doing to have these gains. My child has ranged from high 250s-low 260s in 3,4, and now 5th grade. So it is clear he has a high level of math skill but also hasn’t been learning anything new in a long time. We try at home, but we our best at home, it isn’t enough. I think ultimately he would benefit from being in an actual math class at school that is teaching him new material, which is why I’m considering alg I in 6th grade. I expect it to be a mix of some review and some new material.

From my experience: our child scored 275 on NWEA MAP 2-5 in 4th grade (due to Covid acceleration), got a raw 60/60 on the IAAT in 5th grade, perfect SOL - they're now completing Algebra I in sixth grade.
Although only about 2.5% of their cohort was admitted to Algebra in 6th grade, it's clear that some of the other kids shouldn't be there and a dragging down the level of instruction compared to what could be done. (They score 80-90% on tests that allow Desmos...)

Unfortunately, if I were you, I'd still be pushing for Algebra in 6th grade for the alternative of more school-level prealgebra is worse and a waste of time.


But I would have my child go deeper in prep: make sure they're at the mastery level of all Alcumus Prealgebra subjects, and potentially pay for them to take the online version of Prealgebra 1 + 2 at AoPS (or the in-person version if you can afford the money and logistics). We also did their Algebra A course when our child was in 5th grade. Then school-level Algebra I will indeed be mostly review and they can focus on working ahead on the Geometry and Intermediate Algebra, which we're addressing now.

Also make sure they participate in AMC-8, Math Kangaroo, and Mathcounts and engage in regular practice there.

It seems you essentially homeschool your child. Not sure why he’s taking 6th grade Algebra at this point, maybe for credit or because it’s the most accelerated path available at the school.

What is really rubbing me the wrong way is how you claim the other kids scoring in the 80-90% don’t belong to that class, when in fact it’s your own child that doesn’t belong there having already completed the material. You have the expectation that 6th grade algebra should somehow be modified to match your child’s level and not the level of the other students in the class that were placed appropriately.

Kudos to the kids that work hard, but sometimes the parents of these children are so insufferable and disparage other kids when most likely there are equally as bright, but just don’t have the early exposure to accelerate them along the math pathway.

The 6th graders in algebra should do better than that, and are elsewhere the top students in the class.

Meanwhile, at title one schools students are denied these opportunities despite being the top students in their class

No they are not. Title one schools all offer algebra I, typically to 8th graders, where there is low participation anyhow. The amount of 6th graders that could qualify to take it are very very few, probably one every few yrs. There are few 6th graders doing this even in the best districts. Majority of schools would have zero issue putting a 6th grader in it since there is so little demand and it is an easy accommodation.

Oh really? That is NOT TRUE. Please name a single title-1 school that offers Pre-Algebra to 5th graders like the wealthy elemenataries. Some wealthy MS offer Algebra 1 to any 6th graders who score over 250 on their 5th grade MAP-M. Well, DC scored over 250 on the same test in 3rd grade. I remember asking the principal of our title-1 school if there was anything they could offer them since they were not challenged. They said sorry we don't offer that here.

This just means that you have an inflexible principal, or it means that your child is not the outlier that you perceive him to be. It doesn't mean that opportunities are lacking in Title I schools writ large. My kid tested off the charts at a Title I school. The school math resource teacher met one on one with my child to assess his math level and the proper placement. He ultimately ended up skipping 2/3 grade levels of math, taking IAAT and 7th grade SOL when in 4th grade and Algebra in 5th. Title I schools might not have sufficient cohort to offer Pre-Algebra in general to 5th graders. They absolutely can and will allow an individual child to join a higher grade level for math class when the child is otherwise an outlier.

You are in VA so it's a bit different can MCPS. 250 isn't abnormal in MCPS for MAP in 3rd but it's the 5th grade that counts. Only one school offers aim and it really doesn't matter. Supplement at home. About 1/3 the middle schools allow Algebra in 6th but only a select few are allowed or choose to do it. Otherwise smart kids take Algebra in 7th. Not a big deal either way. I would not have wanted my child to take AIM in 5th. Starting Algebra with out AIM was fine but child did do a summer prep class to make sure they could handle it.

The thing that gets me about all this is how parents use the acceleration that is only available at a handful of wealthy schools as a golden ticket to unlock programs like TJ and later complain how it's gone downhill when fewer privileged students are now admitted because the county adopts a more equitable admissions policy.

Yeah this is incorrect. Acceleration for 7th grade algebra is available at all middle schools and gifted children can be identified for AAP at all elementary schools. 6th grade algebra is rare in FCPS for everyone but it happens and would probably shake out wearier for a kid destined for AAP. A kid isn’t showing up at a title I school in FCPS in 5th grade all the sudden ready for algebra the next year and no one has noticed. You don’t gotta lie to kick it.

They are rambling about MCPS where there may be one school that offers AIM. AIM meaning pre-algbra in 5th. Most kids take Algebra in 7/8, some 9th. Some MS offer Algebra in 6th but its maybe under 25 students per school, if offered. They are mixed in with the 7/8 graders. Pre-Algebra for 5th is a bit absurd except for a genius level student.

Yes, 1-2 of the wealthiest schools in the county provide algebra in 6th, but the majority do not.

Yes, because there’s a cohort of students and qualified teachers that make offering algebra 1 in 6 feasible. At your average title 1 school there are many other things the administration has to deal with: teacher retention, chronic absenteeism, addressing the large chunk of students that are way below grade level. Let’s assume your child is the gifted genius you claim him to be. Maybe they see a child like that once a decade. You show up at their office door and demand your kid is placed in algebra because you’ve heard that at Frost kids with at least 250 on MAP get this treatment. You go on a rambling about fairness, MLK, opportunity hoarding and how your kids chances at TJ are compromised because they don’t put him in Algebra. I’m not surprised with the outcome you got. This being said there are opportunities you can pursue, but you’re too busy being a victim and going on your tiny little fairness crusade. Good luck, I hope you succeed!

250 is a pretty normal MAP score in MCPS.

For the billionth time, the test is not the same.

You are an idiot and don’t understand what you are talking about. The 3-5 test IS the same test but it adapts to ability, regardless of grade or age. Which means it’s comparable.

Computer adaptive means that the sequence of questions is dependent on how each question is answered, but the questions are chosen from the bank of the test. For MAP there are two versions of the test MAP 2-5, and MAP 6+ that have a different set of bank questions. Both have the same scale of scores, and the scores are somewhat equivalent, but the equivalency is not that accurate at the ends of the scale. A 250 on the MAP 2-5 would mostly test lower grade arithmetic content, while a 250 on the MAP 6+ tests well into algebra content. That’s why sometimes you see a dip in scores from 5th to 6th grade tests especially at the high end. Even within these two version there are subversions adjusted to state standards etc., you can also specify instructional area by grades, so it’s possible that each district chooses a version of the test that best fits their needs.

You can see the version description here:
https://teach.mapnwea.org/impl/maphelp/Content/AboutMAP/MAPTestDescription.htm

When a student takes the test, there’s a detailed report called Learning Continuum (it’s 30+ pages long), that breaks down the concepts the student understands at 75%, 50%, and 25% mastery. This report is more informative for student placement, because it is broken down in items like ‘inverse of a quadratic function (251-260)’.

I’d suggest that when you share your boundless knowledge on how MAP testing works, you post a link so we can evaluate independently your claims. It’s amazing how complete ignoramuses consider themselves experts just because they got a map test results letter in their mailbox.

Nothing you have said contradicts anything I’ve said. What is wrong is to say that the third grade test is not comparable with the 5th grade test. It is. No master how many times you claim otherwise, if a 3rd grade child has the same knowledge and abilities (and test taking aptitude) as a 5th grade child they will score the same.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think this is off too. Going from 260s to 290s while they are at home doing normal 3-5th grade homework and maybe some supplement just wouldn’t happen. I can’t imagine the type of out school work a kid would be doing to have these gains. My child has ranged from high 250s-low 260s in 3,4, and now 5th grade. So it is clear he has a high level of math skill but also hasn’t been learning anything new in a long time. We try at home, but we our best at home, it isn’t enough. I think ultimately he would benefit from being in an actual math class at school that is teaching him new material, which is why I’m considering alg I in 6th grade. I expect it to be a mix of some review and some new material.

From my experience: our child scored 275 on NWEA MAP 2-5 in 4th grade (due to Covid acceleration), got a raw 60/60 on the IAAT in 5th grade, perfect SOL - they're now completing Algebra I in sixth grade.
Although only about 2.5% of their cohort was admitted to Algebra in 6th grade, it's clear that some of the other kids shouldn't be there and a dragging down the level of instruction compared to what could be done. (They score 80-90% on tests that allow Desmos...)

Unfortunately, if I were you, I'd still be pushing for Algebra in 6th grade for the alternative of more school-level prealgebra is worse and a waste of time.


But I would have my child go deeper in prep: make sure they're at the mastery level of all Alcumus Prealgebra subjects, and potentially pay for them to take the online version of Prealgebra 1 + 2 at AoPS (or the in-person version if you can afford the money and logistics). We also did their Algebra A course when our child was in 5th grade. Then school-level Algebra I will indeed be mostly review and they can focus on working ahead on the Geometry and Intermediate Algebra, which we're addressing now.

Also make sure they participate in AMC-8, Math Kangaroo, and Mathcounts and engage in regular practice there.

It seems you essentially homeschool your child. Not sure why he’s taking 6th grade Algebra at this point, maybe for credit or because it’s the most accelerated path available at the school.

What is really rubbing me the wrong way is how you claim the other kids scoring in the 80-90% don’t belong to that class, when in fact it’s your own child that doesn’t belong there having already completed the material. You have the expectation that 6th grade algebra should somehow be modified to match your child’s level and not the level of the other students in the class that were placed appropriately.

Kudos to the kids that work hard, but sometimes the parents of these children are so insufferable and disparage other kids when most likely there are equally as bright, but just don’t have the early exposure to accelerate them along the math pathway.

The 6th graders in algebra should do better than that, and are elsewhere the top students in the class.

Meanwhile, at title one schools students are denied these opportunities despite being the top students in their class

No they are not. Title one schools all offer algebra I, typically to 8th graders, where there is low participation anyhow. The amount of 6th graders that could qualify to take it are very very few, probably one every few yrs. There are few 6th graders doing this even in the best districts. Majority of schools would have zero issue putting a 6th grader in it since there is so little demand and it is an easy accommodation.

Oh really? That is NOT TRUE. Please name a single title-1 school that offers Pre-Algebra to 5th graders like the wealthy elemenataries. Some wealthy MS offer Algebra 1 to any 6th graders who score over 250 on their 5th grade MAP-M. Well, DC scored over 250 on the same test in 3rd grade. I remember asking the principal of our title-1 school if there was anything they could offer them since they were not challenged. They said sorry we don't offer that here.

This just means that you have an inflexible principal, or it means that your child is not the outlier that you perceive him to be. It doesn't mean that opportunities are lacking in Title I schools writ large. My kid tested off the charts at a Title I school. The school math resource teacher met one on one with my child to assess his math level and the proper placement. He ultimately ended up skipping 2/3 grade levels of math, taking IAAT and 7th grade SOL when in 4th grade and Algebra in 5th. Title I schools might not have sufficient cohort to offer Pre-Algebra in general to 5th graders. They absolutely can and will allow an individual child to join a higher grade level for math class when the child is otherwise an outlier.

You are in VA so it's a bit different can MCPS. 250 isn't abnormal in MCPS for MAP in 3rd but it's the 5th grade that counts. Only one school offers aim and it really doesn't matter. Supplement at home. About 1/3 the middle schools allow Algebra in 6th but only a select few are allowed or choose to do it. Otherwise smart kids take Algebra in 7th. Not a big deal either way. I would not have wanted my child to take AIM in 5th. Starting Algebra with out AIM was fine but child did do a summer prep class to make sure they could handle it.

The thing that gets me about all this is how parents use the acceleration that is only available at a handful of wealthy schools as a golden ticket to unlock programs like TJ and later complain how it's gone downhill when fewer privileged students are now admitted because the county adopts a more equitable admissions policy.

Yeah this is incorrect. Acceleration for 7th grade algebra is available at all middle schools and gifted children can be identified for AAP at all elementary schools. 6th grade algebra is rare in FCPS for everyone but it happens and would probably shake out wearier for a kid destined for AAP. A kid isn’t showing up at a title I school in FCPS in 5th grade all the sudden ready for algebra the next year and no one has noticed. You don’t gotta lie to kick it.

They are rambling about MCPS where there may be one school that offers AIM. AIM meaning pre-algbra in 5th. Most kids take Algebra in 7/8, some 9th. Some MS offer Algebra in 6th but its maybe under 25 students per school, if offered. They are mixed in with the 7/8 graders. Pre-Algebra for 5th is a bit absurd except for a genius level student.

Yes, 1-2 of the wealthiest schools in the county provide algebra in 6th, but the majority do not.

Correct acceleration is only widely available to the wealthiest schools. There are plenty of qualified students elsewhere. They just don't get to access the same opportunities. When some parents complain, there are fewer students entering TJ who have taken algebra 2 and 8th grade. It is an indication that the selection process is now more equitable. Previously, this was used as a golden ticket to advantage students from the wealthiest schools.

+1
I’d be ok raising the minimum math bar to Algebra 1 in 7th. Each school does have AAP testing of all kids so all are eligible to get into AAP. All AAP kids are tested for algebra 1 for 7th so again this is open to all. Any leg up for math beyond that though is NOT available at all schools so is not appropriate to give plus points for.

One thing I like about MCPS approach with their STEM magnets is students who took Honors Geo or Algebra 2 in 8th can enter at the same level for HS math. There are 2 options, and it's more of a choice:

Functions: Covers Algebra 2 and Prealgebra in 2 semesters. It is rigorous, and there is screening for this. It can involve 2-4 hours of homework a night and half the class drops in the first month.

Magnet PreCalc: 3-semester Algebra 2 and Precalc.

The point is this puts kids on even footing. Maybe TJ already does something similar....

By the time kids get to high school they are not on equal footing. Just because they are in the same class doesn’t mean the starting point is the same. It should be obvious that students who went through algebra 2 will be better prepared to tackle algebra 2 content. Is it possible that some kids might catch up? Sure, but that’s the exception to the rule.

We’re talking about Blair magnet kids. These aren’t ordinary kids. They are motivated and the very best in the entire country. Of course they can handle it.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
I think this is off too. Going from 260s to 290s while they are at home doing normal 3-5th grade homework and maybe some supplement just wouldn’t happen. I can’t imagine the type of out school work a kid would be doing to have these gains. My child has ranged from high 250s-low 260s in 3,4, and now 5th grade. So it is clear he has a high level of math skill but also hasn’t been learning anything new in a long time. We try at home, but we our best at home, it isn’t enough. I think ultimately he would benefit from being in an actual math class at school that is teaching him new material, which is why I’m considering alg I in 6th grade. I expect it to be a mix of some review and some new material.

From my experience: our child scored 275 on NWEA MAP 2-5 in 4th grade (due to Covid acceleration), got a raw 60/60 on the IAAT in 5th grade, perfect SOL - they're now completing Algebra I in sixth grade.
Although only about 2.5% of their cohort was admitted to Algebra in 6th grade, it's clear that some of the other kids shouldn't be there and a dragging down the level of instruction compared to what could be done. (They score 80-90% on tests that allow Desmos...)

Unfortunately, if I were you, I'd still be pushing for Algebra in 6th grade for the alternative of more school-level prealgebra is worse and a waste of time.


But I would have my child go deeper in prep: make sure they're at the mastery level of all Alcumus Prealgebra subjects, and potentially pay for them to take the online version of Prealgebra 1 + 2 at AoPS (or the in-person version if you can afford the money and logistics). We also did their Algebra A course when our child was in 5th grade. Then school-level Algebra I will indeed be mostly review and they can focus on working ahead on the Geometry and Intermediate Algebra, which we're addressing now.

Also make sure they participate in AMC-8, Math Kangaroo, and Mathcounts and engage in regular practice there.

It seems you essentially homeschool your child. Not sure why he’s taking 6th grade Algebra at this point, maybe for credit or because it’s the most accelerated path available at the school.

What is really rubbing me the wrong way is how you claim the other kids scoring in the 80-90% don’t belong to that class, when in fact it’s your own child that doesn’t belong there having already completed the material. You have the expectation that 6th grade algebra should somehow be modified to match your child’s level and not the level of the other students in the class that were placed appropriately.

Kudos to the kids that work hard, but sometimes the parents of these children are so insufferable and disparage other kids when most likely there are equally as bright, but just don’t have the early exposure to accelerate them along the math pathway.

The 6th graders in algebra should do better than that, and are elsewhere the top students in the class.

Meanwhile, at title one schools students are denied these opportunities despite being the top students in their class

No they are not. Title one schools all offer algebra I, typically to 8th graders, where there is low participation anyhow. The amount of 6th graders that could qualify to take it are very very few, probably one every few yrs. There are few 6th graders doing this even in the best districts. Majority of schools would have zero issue putting a 6th grader in it since there is so little demand and it is an easy accommodation.

Oh really? That is NOT TRUE. Please name a single title-1 school that offers Pre-Algebra to 5th graders like the wealthy elemenataries. Some wealthy MS offer Algebra 1 to any 6th graders who score over 250 on their 5th grade MAP-M. Well, DC scored over 250 on the same test in 3rd grade. I remember asking the principal of our title-1 school if there was anything they could offer them since they were not challenged. They said sorry we don't offer that here.

This just means that you have an inflexible principal, or it means that your child is not the outlier that you perceive him to be. It doesn't mean that opportunities are lacking in Title I schools writ large. My kid tested off the charts at a Title I school. The school math resource teacher met one on one with my child to assess his math level and the proper placement. He ultimately ended up skipping 2/3 grade levels of math, taking IAAT and 7th grade SOL when in 4th grade and Algebra in 5th. Title I schools might not have sufficient cohort to offer Pre-Algebra in general to 5th graders. They absolutely can and will allow an individual child to join a higher grade level for math class when the child is otherwise an outlier.

You are in VA so it's a bit different can MCPS. 250 isn't abnormal in MCPS for MAP in 3rd but it's the 5th grade that counts. Only one school offers aim and it really doesn't matter. Supplement at home. About 1/3 the middle schools allow Algebra in 6th but only a select few are allowed or choose to do it. Otherwise smart kids take Algebra in 7th. Not a big deal either way. I would not have wanted my child to take AIM in 5th. Starting Algebra with out AIM was fine but child did do a summer prep class to make sure they could handle it.

The thing that gets me about all this is how parents use the acceleration that is only available at a handful of wealthy schools as a golden ticket to unlock programs like TJ and later complain how it's gone downhill when fewer privileged students are now admitted because the county adopts a more equitable admissions policy.

Yeah this is incorrect. Acceleration for 7th grade algebra is available at all middle schools and gifted children can be identified for AAP at all elementary schools. 6th grade algebra is rare in FCPS for everyone but it happens and would probably shake out wearier for a kid destined for AAP. A kid isn’t showing up at a title I school in FCPS in 5th grade all the sudden ready for algebra the next year and no one has noticed. You don’t gotta lie to kick it.

They are rambling about MCPS where there may be one school that offers AIM. AIM meaning pre-algbra in 5th. Most kids take Algebra in 7/8, some 9th. Some MS offer Algebra in 6th but its maybe under 25 students per school, if offered. They are mixed in with the 7/8 graders. Pre-Algebra for 5th is a bit absurd except for a genius level student.

Yes, 1-2 of the wealthiest schools in the county provide algebra in 6th, but the majority do not.

Correct acceleration is only widely available to the wealthiest schools. There are plenty of qualified students elsewhere. They just don't get to access the same opportunities. When some parents complain, there are fewer students entering TJ who have taken algebra 2 and 8th grade. It is an indication that the selection process is now more equitable. Previously, this was used as a golden ticket to advantage students from the wealthiest schools.

+1
I’d be ok raising the minimum math bar to Algebra 1 in 7th. Each school does have AAP testing of all kids so all are eligible to get into AAP. All AAP kids are tested for algebra 1 for 7th so again this is open to all. Any leg up for math beyond that though is NOT available at all schools so is not appropriate to give plus points for.

One thing I like about MCPS approach with their STEM magnets is students who took Honors Geo or Algebra 2 in 8th can enter at the same level for HS math. There are 2 options, and it's more of a choice:

Functions: Covers Algebra 2 and Prealgebra in 2 semesters. It is rigorous, and there is screening for this. It can involve 2-4 hours of homework a night and half the class drops in the first month.

Magnet PreCalc: 3-semester Algebra 2 and Precalc.

The point is this puts kids on even footing. Maybe TJ already does something similar....

By the time kids get to high school they are not on equal footing. Just because they are in the same class doesn’t mean the starting point is the same. It should be obvious that students who went through algebra 2 will be better prepared to tackle algebra 2 content. Is it possible that some kids might catch up? Sure, but that’s the exception to the rule.

They never were on equal footing to begin with.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think this is off too. Going from 260s to 290s while they are at home doing normal 3-5th grade homework and maybe some supplement just wouldn’t happen. I can’t imagine the type of out school work a kid would be doing to have these gains. My child has ranged from high 250s-low 260s in 3,4, and now 5th grade. So it is clear he has a high level of math skill but also hasn’t been learning anything new in a long time. We try at home, but we our best at home, it isn’t enough. I think ultimately he would benefit from being in an actual math class at school that is teaching him new material, which is why I’m considering alg I in 6th grade. I expect it to be a mix of some review and some new material.

From my experience: our child scored 275 on NWEA MAP 2-5 in 4th grade (due to Covid acceleration), got a raw 60/60 on the IAAT in 5th grade, perfect SOL - they're now completing Algebra I in sixth grade.
Although only about 2.5% of their cohort was admitted to Algebra in 6th grade, it's clear that some of the other kids shouldn't be there and a dragging down the level of instruction compared to what could be done. (They score 80-90% on tests that allow Desmos...)

Unfortunately, if I were you, I'd still be pushing for Algebra in 6th grade for the alternative of more school-level prealgebra is worse and a waste of time.


But I would have my child go deeper in prep: make sure they're at the mastery level of all Alcumus Prealgebra subjects, and potentially pay for them to take the online version of Prealgebra 1 + 2 at AoPS (or the in-person version if you can afford the money and logistics). We also did their Algebra A course when our child was in 5th grade. Then school-level Algebra I will indeed be mostly review and they can focus on working ahead on the Geometry and Intermediate Algebra, which we're addressing now.

Also make sure they participate in AMC-8, Math Kangaroo, and Mathcounts and engage in regular practice there.

It seems you essentially homeschool your child. Not sure why he’s taking 6th grade Algebra at this point, maybe for credit or because it’s the most accelerated path available at the school.

What is really rubbing me the wrong way is how you claim the other kids scoring in the 80-90% don’t belong to that class, when in fact it’s your own child that doesn’t belong there having already completed the material. You have the expectation that 6th grade algebra should somehow be modified to match your child’s level and not the level of the other students in the class that were placed appropriately.

Kudos to the kids that work hard, but sometimes the parents of these children are so insufferable and disparage other kids when most likely there are equally as bright, but just don’t have the early exposure to accelerate them along the math pathway.

The 6th graders in algebra should do better than that, and are elsewhere the top students in the class.

Meanwhile, at title one schools students are denied these opportunities despite being the top students in their class

No they are not. Title one schools all offer algebra I, typically to 8th graders, where there is low participation anyhow. The amount of 6th graders that could qualify to take it are very very few, probably one every few yrs. There are few 6th graders doing this even in the best districts. Majority of schools would have zero issue putting a 6th grader in it since there is so little demand and it is an easy accommodation.

Oh really? That is NOT TRUE. Please name a single title-1 school that offers Pre-Algebra to 5th graders like the wealthy elemenataries. Some wealthy MS offer Algebra 1 to any 6th graders who score over 250 on their 5th grade MAP-M. Well, DC scored over 250 on the same test in 3rd grade. I remember asking the principal of our title-1 school if there was anything they could offer them since they were not challenged. They said sorry we don't offer that here.

This just means that you have an inflexible principal, or it means that your child is not the outlier that you perceive him to be. It doesn't mean that opportunities are lacking in Title I schools writ large. My kid tested off the charts at a Title I school. The school math resource teacher met one on one with my child to assess his math level and the proper placement. He ultimately ended up skipping 2/3 grade levels of math, taking IAAT and 7th grade SOL when in 4th grade and Algebra in 5th. Title I schools might not have sufficient cohort to offer Pre-Algebra in general to 5th graders. They absolutely can and will allow an individual child to join a higher grade level for math class when the child is otherwise an outlier.

You are in VA so it's a bit different can MCPS. 250 isn't abnormal in MCPS for MAP in 3rd but it's the 5th grade that counts. Only one school offers aim and it really doesn't matter. Supplement at home. About 1/3 the middle schools allow Algebra in 6th but only a select few are allowed or choose to do it. Otherwise smart kids take Algebra in 7th. Not a big deal either way. I would not have wanted my child to take AIM in 5th. Starting Algebra with out AIM was fine but child did do a summer prep class to make sure they could handle it.

The thing that gets me about all this is how parents use the acceleration that is only available at a handful of wealthy schools as a golden ticket to unlock programs like TJ and later complain how it's gone downhill when fewer privileged students are now admitted because the county adopts a more equitable admissions policy.

Yeah this is incorrect. Acceleration for 7th grade algebra is available at all middle schools and gifted children can be identified for AAP at all elementary schools. 6th grade algebra is rare in FCPS for everyone but it happens and would probably shake out wearier for a kid destined for AAP. A kid isn’t showing up at a title I school in FCPS in 5th grade all the sudden ready for algebra the next year and no one has noticed. You don’t gotta lie to kick it.

They are rambling about MCPS where there may be one school that offers AIM. AIM meaning pre-algbra in 5th. Most kids take Algebra in 7/8, some 9th. Some MS offer Algebra in 6th but its maybe under 25 students per school, if offered. They are mixed in with the 7/8 graders. Pre-Algebra for 5th is a bit absurd except for a genius level student.

Yes, 1-2 of the wealthiest schools in the county provide algebra in 6th, but the majority do not.

Correct acceleration is only widely available to the wealthiest schools. There are plenty of qualified students elsewhere. They just don't get to access the same opportunities. When some parents complain, there are fewer students entering TJ who have taken algebra 2 and 8th grade. It is an indication that the selection process is now more equitable. Previously, this was used as a golden ticket to advantage students from the wealthiest schools.

+1
I’d be ok raising the minimum math bar to Algebra 1 in 7th. Each school does have AAP testing of all kids so all are eligible to get into AAP. All AAP kids are tested for algebra 1 for 7th so again this is open to all. Any leg up for math beyond that though is NOT available at all schools so is not appropriate to give plus points for.

One thing I like about MCPS approach with their STEM magnets is students who took Honors Geo or Algebra 2 in 8th can enter at the same level for HS math. There are 2 options, and it's more of a choice:

Functions: Covers Algebra 2 and Prealgebra in 2 semesters. It is rigorous, and there is screening for this. It can involve 2-4 hours of homework a night and half the class drops in the first month.

Magnet PreCalc: 3-semester Algebra 2 and Precalc.

The point is this puts kids on even footing. Maybe TJ already does something similar....

By the time kids get to high school they are not on equal footing. Just because they are in the same class doesn’t mean the starting point is the same. It should be obvious that students who went through algebra 2 will be better prepared to tackle algebra 2 content. Is it possible that some kids might catch up? Sure, but that’s the exception to the rule.