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Anonymous wrote:I'm a careful driver and the scooters seem incredibly dangerous. I see scooter riders all the time zipping around corners without stopping to ascertain if a pedestrian or vehicle is approaching. They weave in and out of lanes in traffic. At dusk or later, they're completely invisible. I understand why people find them useful but in a city environment (as opposed to a college campus or a park) they're a huge hazard to the riders themselves.

Most of the hazard to scooter riders comes from drivers.

And no, they're not invisible (to drivers) at dusk or later, or at least not if you (the driver) are driving slowly enough to be able to see them.

You have to have a death wish to ride a scooter or bike at night. You can whine all you want as the lights go.

In that case, conversely, you have to not mind killing people to drive a car at night.

People on bikes or scooters (or feet, or whatever) at night are people who are going from Here To There, just like you in your car.

Cars have lots of really bright lights. Bikes and scooters don’t. It’s not everyone else’s fault if they can’t see you because you went out with a shitty little light and refused to wear a reflective vest. In fact, the police say one quarter of all traffic deaths in DC are the cyclist/scooter/pedestrians fault. That’s the same number of deaths caused by speeding drivers.

This is the point of view of a sociopath. Non-sociopaths don't want to hit people, regardless of what the people were doing.

Or you could just get a decent light for your bike? No one would ever say I’m free to turn off my car head lights at night because other people can just be more careful around me. Take some responsibility for your poor decisions.

Anonymous wrote:The conversation can't not be about cars, because cars are the reason for sidewalks, and pedestrians on the sidewalk, and bicyclists on the sidewalk, and e-scooters on the sidewalk, in the first place. It's not car hatred, it's just history.

Plus, from the point of view of people walking on the sidewalk, I honestly don't perceive a difference between people using a scooter on the sidewalk or people using a bicycle on the sidewalk.

Well we are not changing the current arrangements of streets and sidewalks today, so we have to be able to have a conversation about scooters on sidewalks under the current set-up which is where pedestrians are completely restricted to the sidewalk (unsafe to be anywhere else). That's why the scooter bans. If pedestrians can only walk in one place, that place should be safe for them, and many pedestrians do not feel safe with scooters on the sidewalk.

And yes, scooters and bikes on the sidewalk are about equivalent. Again, since this is the ONLY place pedestrians can safely walk, neither scooters nor bikes should be given preference. I bike quite a bit in DC and I never bike down the sidewalk because it's not safe for pedestrians (also while technically you are allowed I do think you could be cited for this if you hurt someone -- I think you are only allowed on the sidewalk if there is no way for you to safely move down the street). If I have to take my bike on a sidewalk, I walk it. It sucks there are not more bike lanes in DC and also that so many cars in DC make biking here more dangerous than it should be. But that doesn't mean that I should get to speed down a sidewalk on my bike and force pedestrians to leap out of the way. I simply plan my routes to take advantage of bike lanes or to utilize streets that are safer for bikes.

The same should be true of scooters. They do not belong on sidewalks where pedestrians are. If a pedestrian has to jump out of the way, or might have to grab a small child and pull them out of your way, then you are going too fast on the sidewalk. Scooters are too fast for the sidewalk.

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Anonymous wrote:I'm a careful driver and the scooters seem incredibly dangerous. I see scooter riders all the time zipping around corners without stopping to ascertain if a pedestrian or vehicle is approaching. They weave in and out of lanes in traffic. At dusk or later, they're completely invisible. I understand why people find them useful but in a city environment (as opposed to a college campus or a park) they're a huge hazard to the riders themselves.

Most of the hazard to scooter riders comes from drivers.

And no, they're not invisible (to drivers) at dusk or later, or at least not if you (the driver) are driving slowly enough to be able to see them.

You have to have a death wish to ride a scooter or bike at night. You can whine all you want as the lights go.

In that case, conversely, you have to not mind killing people to drive a car at night.

People on bikes or scooters (or feet, or whatever) at night are people who are going from Here To There, just like you in your car.

Cars have lots of really bright lights. Bikes and scooters don’t. It’s not everyone else’s fault if they can’t see you because you went out with a shitty little light and refused to wear a reflective vest. In fact, the police say one quarter of all traffic deaths in DC are the cyclist/scooter/pedestrians fault. That’s the same number of deaths caused by speeding drivers.

This is the point of view of a sociopath. Non-sociopaths don't want to hit people, regardless of what the people were doing.

Hey it’s the guy who spends all day on DCUM calling people sociopaths! (Honestly seems kinda sociopathic if you ask me)

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Anonymous wrote:I'm a careful driver and the scooters seem incredibly dangerous. I see scooter riders all the time zipping around corners without stopping to ascertain if a pedestrian or vehicle is approaching. They weave in and out of lanes in traffic. At dusk or later, they're completely invisible. I understand why people find them useful but in a city environment (as opposed to a college campus or a park) they're a huge hazard to the riders themselves.

Most of the hazard to scooter riders comes from drivers.

And no, they're not invisible (to drivers) at dusk or later, or at least not if you (the driver) are driving slowly enough to be able to see them.

You have to have a death wish to ride a scooter or bike at night. You can whine all you want as the lights go.

In that case, conversely, you have to not mind killing people to drive a car at night.

People on bikes or scooters (or feet, or whatever) at night are people who are going from Here To There, just like you in your car.

Cars have lots of really bright lights. Bikes and scooters don’t. It’s not everyone else’s fault if they can’t see you because you went out with a shitty little light and refused to wear a reflective vest. In fact, the police say one quarter of all traffic deaths in DC are the cyclist/scooter/pedestrians fault. That’s the same number of deaths caused by speeding drivers.

This is the point of view of a sociopath. Non-sociopaths don't want to hit people, regardless of what the people were doing.

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Anonymous wrote:Ugh, PP, we get it -- cars are worse than scooters. Environmentally and in terms of harming people. Yes, I agree. But we live in a society that has designated a space for cars and the cars largely stay in that space.

Motorized scooters are a new addition and there's no safe place for them in the current infrastructure. They go too fast on sidewalks to be safe for pedestrians (and yes, people on scooters act entitled to have pedestrians move out of their way even though pedestrians are using the sidewalks as designed and shouldn't be expected to yield in that space). They are not fast enough for bike lanes, and of course it would not be safe for scooters to be in car lanes.

We went through this with bikes, too -- for a long time cyclists wanted to be able to use sidewalks because they didn't like being in the street with the cars (understandably). But pedestrians need a space that is just for them.

I'd support moves to ban cars from certain streets, increase taxes on cars and driving, and change the infrastructure focus away from cars and towards public transportation and alternative modes of transit. But none of that changes my opinion on scooters, which is that they are unsafe on sidewalks and endanger pedestrians.

Maybe if we created more carless streets, scooters could use the streets. Let's lobby for that instead. Keep them away from pedestrians who need to have safe walkways preserved.

I'm 100% in favor of micromobility lanes. The solution is not to ban scooters, it's to create safe micromobility infrastructure.

The vast, vast, vast majority of pedestrians who are injured or killed in traffic are injured by drivers of cars. To say "drivers largely stay in the space designated for cars" ignores the people injured or killed when drivers go out of that car space, as well as the people injured or killed when people have to go into that car space.

Yes, cars kill pedestrians. I hate cars. But 99.9% of drivers understand that pedestrians have right of way on sidewalks and in cross walks, and the vast majority of times, they observe that right of way.

Scooters don't. If you are on a scooter on a sidewalk and someone is walking slowly in front of you, you have zero right to ask that person to get out of your way, and you definitely don't have a right to expect that pedestrian to get out of your way without you even having to slow down. But people on scooters do this ALL THE TIME. Sidewalks are for pedestrians but scooters treat them like roads that people happen to walk in sometimes.

If you can't understand that this is an issue, even if it's not as big of an issue as cars, you aren't going to find a lot of allies among pedestrians. Cyclists tried this too -- there was a time when cyclists were trying to use the sidewalks as well, and laws got passed to prevent it because sidewalks are for pedestrians. Advocate for more multi-use bike/scooter lanes. But until they are there, don't expect pedestrians to welcome scooters onto the sidewalks.

Bicyclists can legally use the sidewalk in most places. I do advocate for more multi-use lanes. I also recognize that people using all modes of transportation can be jerks, including people using scooters and people using bicycles. However, objectively, there is only one mode of transportation that is consistently lethal when its users are jerks, and that's cars/trucks. Let's focus on that.

Most places? DC is the first city I've lived in that allows sidewalk cyclers. In every other city I've lived in, the sidewalks are full of people.

I don't drive, and we are currently living conveniently. For a variety of reasons we are thinking of moving a little further. I was thinking of scooters or bike (on sidewalk) as my best options. I'm a very respectful pedestrian and would be the same on scooter or bike. I think a scooter would take up less space on a shared sidewalk?

No. No motorized vehicles on sidewalks.

Why would this be a problem if I acted responsibly? Also, aren't they legal on sidewalks? Where are you supposed to ride them?

Scooters are expressly illegal to ride on sidewalks in DC. Stop breaking the law.

That is incorrect. It is only illegal to ride a scooter (or bicycle) on the sidewalk in the central business district. It is legal everywhere else in DC.

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Anonymous wrote:Ugh, PP, we get it -- cars are worse than scooters. Environmentally and in terms of harming people. Yes, I agree. But we live in a society that has designated a space for cars and the cars largely stay in that space.

Motorized scooters are a new addition and there's no safe place for them in the current infrastructure. They go too fast on sidewalks to be safe for pedestrians (and yes, people on scooters act entitled to have pedestrians move out of their way even though pedestrians are using the sidewalks as designed and shouldn't be expected to yield in that space). They are not fast enough for bike lanes, and of course it would not be safe for scooters to be in car lanes.

We went through this with bikes, too -- for a long time cyclists wanted to be able to use sidewalks because they didn't like being in the street with the cars (understandably). But pedestrians need a space that is just for them.

I'd support moves to ban cars from certain streets, increase taxes on cars and driving, and change the infrastructure focus away from cars and towards public transportation and alternative modes of transit. But none of that changes my opinion on scooters, which is that they are unsafe on sidewalks and endanger pedestrians.

Maybe if we created more carless streets, scooters could use the streets. Let's lobby for that instead. Keep them away from pedestrians who need to have safe walkways preserved.

I'm 100% in favor of micromobility lanes. The solution is not to ban scooters, it's to create safe micromobility infrastructure.

The vast, vast, vast majority of pedestrians who are injured or killed in traffic are injured by drivers of cars. To say "drivers largely stay in the space designated for cars" ignores the people injured or killed when drivers go out of that car space, as well as the people injured or killed when people have to go into that car space.

Yes, cars kill pedestrians. I hate cars. But 99.9% of drivers understand that pedestrians have right of way on sidewalks and in cross walks, and the vast majority of times, they observe that right of way.

Scooters don't. If you are on a scooter on a sidewalk and someone is walking slowly in front of you, you have zero right to ask that person to get out of your way, and you definitely don't have a right to expect that pedestrian to get out of your way without you even having to slow down. But people on scooters do this ALL THE TIME. Sidewalks are for pedestrians but scooters treat them like roads that people happen to walk in sometimes.

If you can't understand that this is an issue, even if it's not as big of an issue as cars, you aren't going to find a lot of allies among pedestrians. Cyclists tried this too -- there was a time when cyclists were trying to use the sidewalks as well, and laws got passed to prevent it because sidewalks are for pedestrians. Advocate for more multi-use bike/scooter lanes. But until they are there, don't expect pedestrians to welcome scooters onto the sidewalks.

Bicyclists can legally use the sidewalk in most places. I do advocate for more multi-use lanes. I also recognize that people using all modes of transportation can be jerks, including people using scooters and people using bicycles. However, objectively, there is only one mode of transportation that is consistently lethal when its users are jerks, and that's cars/trucks. Let's focus on that.

Most places? DC is the first city I've lived in that allows sidewalk cyclers. In every other city I've lived in, the sidewalks are full of people.

I don't drive, and we are currently living conveniently. For a variety of reasons we are thinking of moving a little further. I was thinking of scooters or bike (on sidewalk) as my best options. I'm a very respectful pedestrian and would be the same on scooter or bike. I think a scooter would take up less space on a shared sidewalk?

No. No motorized vehicles on sidewalks.

Why would this be a problem if I acted responsibly? Also, aren't they legal on sidewalks? Where are you supposed to ride them?

Scooters are expressly illegal to ride on sidewalks in DC. Stop breaking the law.

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Anonymous wrote:Paris is voting Sunday on whether to ban scooters. People are sick of them — they ride too fast, they go on the sidewalks, they leave their scooters everywhere. Copenhagen, Helsinki have imposed new restrictions. London wants to require people to get licenses. I would love it if DC banned them outright. They are a menace.

While we’re at it, let’s ban cars too. They are a menace that kill tens of thousands of the living population and are making the planet unlivable for everyone that comes after.

Omg, an old lady clutched her pearls because a 13 year old menace on a scooter nearly buzzed her on a city sidewalk. I guess we need to ban all scooters now! No, no, no, the cars that kill 35,000-45,000 people a year for the last nearly 100 years are absolutely just fine.

It’s is illegal to ride scooters on sidewalks. Follow the law.

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Anonymous wrote:I'm a careful driver and the scooters seem incredibly dangerous. I see scooter riders all the time zipping around corners without stopping to ascertain if a pedestrian or vehicle is approaching. They weave in and out of lanes in traffic. At dusk or later, they're completely invisible. I understand why people find them useful but in a city environment (as opposed to a college campus or a park) they're a huge hazard to the riders themselves.

Most of the hazard to scooter riders comes from drivers.

And no, they're not invisible (to drivers) at dusk or later, or at least not if you (the driver) are driving slowly enough to be able to see them.

You have to have a death wish to ride a scooter or bike at night. You can whine all you want as the lights go.

In that case, conversely, you have to not mind killing people to drive a car at night.

People on bikes or scooters (or feet, or whatever) at night are people who are going from Here To There, just like you in your car.

Cars have lots of really bright lights. Bikes and scooters don’t. It’s not everyone else’s fault if they can’t see you because you went out with a shitty little light and refused to wear a reflective vest. In fact, the police say one quarter of all traffic deaths in DC are the cyclist/scooter/pedestrians fault. That’s the same number of deaths caused by speeding drivers.

The conversation can't not be about cars, because cars are the reason for sidewalks, and pedestrians on the sidewalk, and bicyclists on the sidewalk, and e-scooters on the sidewalk, in the first place. It's not car hatred, it's just history.

Plus, from the point of view of people walking on the sidewalk, I honestly don't perceive a difference between people using a scooter on the sidewalk or people using a bicycle on the sidewalk.

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Anonymous wrote:I think you either need to limit them to bike lanes OR limit their speed by a lot. People driving a motorized vehicle on the sidewalk 20-25 mph are dangerous, full stop. Especially when there are small children and dogs and people in mobility devices as well. Kids and dogs tend to shift direction quickly and don’t always have great awareness of their surroundings. Someone in a mobility device needs to always be given right of way. Scooters need to be slower or banned from sidewalks.

And before you yell at me about cars: speed limits for cars should also be lower and I think private cars should be banned from very dense urban neighborhoods with good public transportation access (you need to ensure it stays accessible to people with limited mobility). But I think that’s a separate conversation. I’ll note that this thread was started with discussion of Paris banning scooters. Paris recently moved aggressively to limit cars in many parts of the city, to great benefit of people who live there. So it’s not like banning scooters is a “pro-car” position.

Rental scooters (which is what Paris banned) already are speed-limited to 10 mph in DC. And rental scooter parking can be geo-fenced, so the rental company doesn't stop charging you until you have returned your scooter to a designated scooter parking area.

For people on scooters to ride in bike lanes, there need to be bike lanes.

Cars could also have speed-limiters. Why don't we do a lot more of that?

Well as a pedestrian in DC, I find the scooters still go too fast. Either they are not actually speed limited or 10 mph is too fast to travel on a busy city sidewalk.

I always support new bike lanes.

I would support speed limiters on cars.

You are trying to make this an either/or and it's not. I probably agree with most of your position on cars, but I ALSO think scooters are hazardous in the city and as someone who walks 90% of the time, I find them to be dangerous and also just to make the experience of walking in the city more stressful and less pleasant.

City transportation infrastructure should be built around pedestrians/public transportation first because everyone is a pedestrian at some point and public transportation is the single most accessible mode of transport. THEN cyclists. THEN small motorized vehicles like scooters and maybe e-bikes (not sure whether these should fit into cyclists or motorized, open for debate). Then cars very last. But this conversation has nothing to do with cars. It is about the balance between small motorized vehicles and pedestrians. The pedestrians needs should be first. If scooters pose a danger to pedestrians or make people uncomfortable walking on sidewalks (something that could push them to drive more!) then scooters should not be on sidewalks.

Bikes also don't belong on sidewalks for the same reason, which is one of many reasons I support bike lanes and giving more of the road over to bikes instead of cars.

But you are being super single minded in your car hate, and it's obscuring the fact that many pedestrians don't like scooters for very valid reasons. We should not have to ban cars before we can address the hazards caused by scooters.

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Anonymous wrote:I'm a careful driver and the scooters seem incredibly dangerous. I see scooter riders all the time zipping around corners without stopping to ascertain if a pedestrian or vehicle is approaching. They weave in and out of lanes in traffic. At dusk or later, they're completely invisible. I understand why people find them useful but in a city environment (as opposed to a college campus or a park) they're a huge hazard to the riders themselves.

Most of the hazard to scooter riders comes from drivers.

And no, they're not invisible (to drivers) at dusk or later, or at least not if you (the driver) are driving slowly enough to be able to see them.

You have to have a death wish to ride a scooter or bike at night. You can whine all you want as the lights go.

In that case, conversely, you have to not mind killing people to drive a car at night.

People on bikes or scooters (or feet, or whatever) at night are people who are going from Here To There, just like you in your car.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a careful driver and the scooters seem incredibly dangerous. I see scooter riders all the time zipping around corners without stopping to ascertain if a pedestrian or vehicle is approaching. They weave in and out of lanes in traffic. At dusk or later, they're completely invisible. I understand why people find them useful but in a city environment (as opposed to a college campus or a park) they're a huge hazard to the riders themselves.

Most of the hazard to scooter riders comes from drivers.

And no, they're not invisible (to drivers) at dusk or later, or at least not if you (the driver) are driving slowly enough to be able to see them.

You have to have a death wish to ride a scooter or bike at night. You can whine all you want as the lights go.

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I came to a four way stop the other day with another car and a scooter and the guy on the scooter about flipped over his handle bars when he realized I wasn’t going to let him just blow the stop sign when I have the right of way. He came to a screeeeeeeching halt.

You are a POS

Everyone including cyclists and scooters should obey traffic laws. It’s not a legal Idaho stop if there are cars present.

Anonymous wrote:I'm a careful driver and the scooters seem incredibly dangerous. I see scooter riders all the time zipping around corners without stopping to ascertain if a pedestrian or vehicle is approaching. They weave in and out of lanes in traffic. At dusk or later, they're completely invisible. I understand why people find them useful but in a city environment (as opposed to a college campus or a park) they're a huge hazard to the riders themselves.

Most of the hazard to scooter riders comes from drivers.

And no, they're not invisible (to drivers) at dusk or later, or at least not if you (the driver) are driving slowly enough to be able to see them.

Too many ableist people in this thread.