Anonymous wrote:Looking up some info on research on 4-day school weeks....It seems most of the schools adopting a 4-day week are tiny and rural. That does make me wonder about the transferability to a large urban location like DC.
"But now seven newer studies generally find negative results – some tiny and some more substantial. One 2021 study in Oregon, for example, calculated that the four-day week shaved off one-sixth of the usual gains that a fifth grader makes in math, equal to about five to six weeks of school. Over many years, those losses can add up for students.
...
Like the more recent crop of studies, they found that four-day weeks weren’t great for academic achievement on average. The test scores of four-day students in grades three through eight grew slightly less during the school year compared to hundreds of thousands of students in those six states who continued to go to school five days a week...
...
The switch seemed to hurt reading achievement more than math achievement. That was surprising. Reading is easier to do at home while math is a subject that students primarily learn and practice in school. During pandemic school closures and remote learning, for example, math achievement generally suffered more than reading."
https://hechingerreport.org/proof-points-seven-new-studies-on-the-impact-of-a-four-day-school-week/
Anonymous wrote:someone was having a bit of a rage-fest around 3am. I hope you feel better after some sleep.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This sounds like a nightmare for schools. How are they going to cover teachers regularly being out for half a day? My kid has an IEP and the teachers are legally required to be present for the meetings, and it's hard enough to coordinate coverage for that.
No
Ma’am. They are required to give input.
Schools had better start offering work settings that mirror the work from home perks.
Teaching is by its nature not a flexible job. And teachers are usually free by 3:15 and all summer … not to mention three weeks of break during the school year.
I’m so tired of hearing this. That simply means that at 3:15, I can pick my own time to do the extra 4 hours of work I still have to get done that day. (Kind of like weekends. I still have to work 10-12 hours, but I can actually pick which hours. Lucky me.) And summers? I figure that’s my break for the 60-70 hour weeks I’ve been working all year. Summer is the only time I can take care of my own needs: my own appointments, my rare chance to get to the gym, etc.
Ditto! While I don’t put in quite as many hours as the PP after 3:15 and on weekends, I do have some perspective from both the teaching and non-teaching work worlds. What people who don’t teach probably have no way to understand is that teachers usually have zero time during a typical day to even place a phone call or go to the bathroom or even eat lunch. The needs for coverage of classes and hall/lunch/recess (in elementary) are HUGE. You are needed every second of every day and you are ON for the entire time. In a previous career, I estimate that I was ON during about 20% of my day. By that I mean that I was directly interacting with others or presenting information. It’s the most draining and demanding part of your day. There are certainly other types of jobs where this constant level of interaction and responsibility is demanded also (health care, restaurant work, public-facing service jobs). But teachers face another career-specific drain on their time and energy too. You are trying to convince a room full of young people to do things they don’t necessarily want to do (academic work, pro-social behavior) ALL DAY LONG. It’s exhausting. So, although I might get home at 4:30, know that I may be only then getting to self-care things that others incorporate into their days such as using the bathroom, eating, calling a plumber, taking a moment to breathe or rest for a few minutes. In other words it is an INTENSE job. Also known that I arrive at work at 7:30, rather than the typical 9 am. If I could have a recuperation day a on Wednesdays, for example, I could remain in this job another 10 years. As it is, I plan on only one more year because I’m just too exhausted. I can get paid more to take an education related work from home job. Them’s the facts.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This sounds like a nightmare for schools. How are they going to cover teachers regularly being out for half a day? My kid has an IEP and the teachers are legally required to be present for the meetings, and it's hard enough to coordinate coverage for that.
No
Ma’am. They are required to give input.
Schools had better start offering work settings that mirror the work from home perks.
Teaching is by its nature not a flexible job. And teachers are usually free by 3:15 and all summer … not to mention three weeks of break during the school year.
I’m so tired of hearing this. That simply means that at 3:15, I can pick my own time to do the extra 4 hours of work I still have to get done that day. (Kind of like weekends. I still have to work 10-12 hours, but I can actually pick which hours. Lucky me.) And summers? I figure that’s my break for the 60-70 hour weeks I’ve been working all year. Summer is the only time I can take care of my own needs: my own appointments, my rare chance to get to the gym, etc.
Ditto! While I don’t put in quite as many hours as the PP after 3:15 and on weekends, I do have some perspective from both the teaching and non-teaching work worlds. What people who don’t teach probably have no way to understand is that teachers usually have zero time during a typical day to even place a phone call or go to the bathroom or even eat lunch. The needs for coverage of classes and hall/lunch/recess (in elementary) are HUGE. You are needed every second of every day and you are ON for the entire time. In a previous career, I estimate that I was ON during about 20% of my day. By that I mean that I was directly interacting with others or presenting information. It’s the most draining and demanding part of your day. There are certainly other types of jobs where this constant level of interaction and responsibility is demanded also (health care, restaurant work, public-facing service jobs). But teachers face another career-specific drain on their time and energy too. You are trying to convince a room full of young people to do things they don’t necessarily want to do (academic work, pro-social behavior) ALL DAY LONG. It’s exhausting. So, although I might get home at 4:30, know that I may be only then getting to self-care things that others incorporate into their days such as using the bathroom, eating, calling a plumber, taking a moment to breathe or rest for a few minutes. In other words it is an INTENSE job. Also known that I arrive at work at 7:30, rather than the typical 9 am. If I could have a recuperation day a on Wednesdays, for example, I could remain in this job another 10 years. As it is, I plan on only one more year because I’m just too exhausted. I can get paid more to take an education related work from home job. Them’s the facts.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Here's a report from a teacher advocacy group in DC that lists a lot of models for what flexible scheduling could look like: https://www.weareempowered.org/flexiblescheduling.html
I cannot believe the utter freakin’ nerve of that group. Four of their suggestions involve reducing instructional time for kids, when kids are still struggling to recover from the school closures. Seriously, stfu.
Nope. Sorry. It’s 2023. This tired, stale excuse is expired. Try again.
you don’t get to fiat it out of existence.
I don’t have to. It’s a tired, idiotic excuse perseverated endlessly upon by idiotic people. I can’t stop them from refusing to grow up and move on, but I will continue to point it out every time they trot out the same tired, stale, empty line.
Anonymous wrote:someone was having a bit of a rage-fest around 3am. I hope you feel better after some sleep.
Anonymous wrote:Back to the point of the thread: It seems like 'flexible scheduling' largely involves less instructional time. This time may be replaced by other activities, but seemingly this requires other people to be employed.
The Council passed a bill, but who decides whether the bill will be funded?
Since apparently it is impossible to hire teachers, why is there a belief that more educational professionals could be hired?
What does less instructional time mean for students, if it is not replaced by something like intensive tutoring?
What does reduced school time mean for where students spend time? Where do they go at 1:30 on Wednesday if their parents work?
What sorts of parents can make a 4-day-work week 'work'?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Back to the point of the thread: It seems like 'flexible scheduling' largely involves less instructional time. This time may be replaced by other activities, but seemingly this requires other people to be employed.
The Council passed a bill, but who decides whether the bill will be funded?
Since apparently it is impossible to hire teachers, why is there a belief that more educational professionals could be hired?
What does less instructional time mean for students, if it is not replaced by something like intensive tutoring?
What does reduced school time mean for where students spend time? Where do they go at 1:30 on Wednesday if their parents work?
What sorts of parents can make a 4-day-work week 'work'?
There a quite a few charters who end early one day a week. I don’t have time to look, but what do parents do there?
I don’t really care. I think it’s unacceptable in charters too.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This sounds like a nightmare for schools. How are they going to cover teachers regularly being out for half a day? My kid has an IEP and the teachers are legally required to be present for the meetings, and it's hard enough to coordinate coverage for that.
No
Ma’am. They are required to give input.
Schools had better start offering work settings that mirror the work from home perks.
Teaching is by its nature not a flexible job. And teachers are usually free by 3:15 and all summer … not to mention three weeks of break during the school year.
I’m so tired of hearing this. That simply means that at 3:15, I can pick my own time to do the extra 4 hours of work I still have to get done that day. (Kind of like weekends. I still have to work 10-12 hours, but I can actually pick which hours. Lucky me.) And summers? I figure that’s my break for the 60-70 hour weeks I’ve been working all year. Summer is the only time I can take care of my own needs: my own appointments, my rare chance to get to the gym, etc.
Has teaching become less flexible since you began or are you jealous that work from home has become more popular recently?
I'm a legal aid lawyer, making $60,000 a year ( so no more than teachers). In some ways I have more flexibility than you (can work from home if I'm not in trial or meeting with clients). In other ways I have less flexibility (I have trials and client meetings year round and have to use limited PTO for winter and spring breaks). Like teachers, my clients don't always treat me well and I'm exposed to a lot of secondary trauma. But it's the job I chose and I'm not complaining. I don't understand why teachers see themselves as martyrs more than other professions.
You have all summer off and 3 weeks during the year. If you don’t like the schedule that’s fine, but unless schools are going to increase staff time or decrease instructional time, it’s not feasible to make the job “flexible.” Presumably you chose teaching for a reason rather than a desk job.
My reason was I wanted to teach, and I’m very, very good at it. I did not sign on to being a martyr, which we now expect of teachers.
I will be quitting, just like many of my coworkers. I shouldn’t be expected to work absurd hours because… summers off. Yes, there is a solution to this problem. Give me work time to get work done. Don’t demand the sacrifice of my nights and weekends.
Trying again without messing up the quotes.
Has teaching become less flexible since you began or are you jealous that work from home has become more popular recently?
I'm a legal aid lawyer, making $60,000 a year ( so no more than teachers). In some ways I have more flexibility than you (can work from home if I'm not in trial or meeting with clients). In other ways I have less flexibility (I have trials and client meetings year round and have to use limited PTO for winter and spring breaks). Like teachers, my clients don't always treat me well and I'm exposed to a lot of secondary trauma. But it's the job I chose and I'm not complaining. I don't understand why teachers see themselves as martyrs more than other professions.
Are your clients allowed to hit, kick, or spit on you without consequence?
Are you blamed for losing a case, to the point where your evaluation score gets docked so you may lose your job?
Do your clients miss appointments to brief and never make them up?
Does the building in which you work have mice/rats or roaches INSIDE?
Does your air/heat go out and take weeks or months to fix?
Are there gas leaks?
Do you have enough resources to make sure you can support your clients?
Can you take a sick day without being guilt tripped by your superior or facing backlash in your evaluation as a result?
I could go on but really I want to say STFU. No one ever said because teaching is hard that other professions cannot be difficult and unfair.
Schooling is legally required so the least DCPS could do is make sure job standards are competitive.
I am a special education teacher and I deserve to have summers off. The United States is behind and it's showing in our workforce and results. Get out with your 'pick yourself up by the bootstraps' mentality.
LOL! Talk to a public defender and get back to me.
LOL! You refuted nothing. 🙄
Of course I did. You seem to be under the impression that no other jobs are difficult and inflexible. Many are.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This sounds like a nightmare for schools. How are they going to cover teachers regularly being out for half a day? My kid has an IEP and the teachers are legally required to be present for the meetings, and it's hard enough to coordinate coverage for that.
No
Ma’am. They are required to give input.
Schools had better start offering work settings that mirror the work from home perks.
Teaching is by its nature not a flexible job. And teachers are usually free by 3:15 and all summer … not to mention three weeks of break during the school year.
Teaching is a very flexible job. Summer off, tons of school holidays, nice winter and spring breaks. They finish the day early enough to run errands and do appointments after work. Plus the planning periods during the work day to catch up. Lots of flexibility and perks.
There are a lot of perks to teaching (and tons if hard work) but it is not flexible. It is one of the few jobs where you cannot take off without doing a ton of work to prepare for that absence (or deal with the consequences of your kids not learning and bring a mess for the sub). The summer off is great but I feel lucky my husband has a more flexible programming job. He winds up taking care of covering all sick kid days and random couple of hours off to meet plumber or similar things. It is really stressful to be absent as a teacher. We do have the school breaks but no flexibility in taking off. So yes- teachers get more days off than most but the job is not flexible.
What are you talking about? This is true of every white-collar job.
Really? When my programmer friends take off a day sick they are not expected to provide detailed plans for another unrelated person to continue writing their code. They just pick up where they left off when they returned. When my friends in HR take off they don’t need to leave detailed plans for a random person to read applications for them for the day. When my dentist is out sick my appointment is rescheduled. When I held a non-teaching admin job at my school I could take off and pick everything up the day I returned. I’m not saying there is no pressure not to take off in other jobs. I’m not saying you might not face scrutiny if you take off too much. I’m not saying it might not be hard to take off if you have a deadline looming. But what job do you need to put together detailed plans for someone you’ve never met to do your actual job for the day if you need to take a day off? And yes I know many teachers leave nothing or super crappy plans for the sub but let’s assume we are talking about a teacher trying to set up a decent day for their students.
So it sounds like teaching is a job that is less flexible (from 8-3) than some other jobs. So you need to accept that, or find flexibility in other ways compatible with the job duties.
I think the point made at the beginning of this thread, is that its not the teachers that need to accept this or continue to be flexible. Teachers are making it pretty clear this is unsustainable from a QoL and all of the "My job is also hard" or "but you have summers off" or "retirement benefits" aren't going to sway them, regardless of your personal opinion.
They should take another job. Just to show I'm not a jerk, I'll support an 18-month hire-back guarantee. Clocks starts when the decide to take me up on it. They're first lesson will be "jesus christ, it's hard to find a job nowadays."
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Teachers never seem to be aware of how benefits work outside of the teaching profession.
How much do teachers pay for their health insurance?
How much do teachers pay for their retirement? In DCPS, it is 8%.
What do teachers get for their retirement? Suppose a teacher worked from 25-65. They'd earn more than 75% of their salary as a defined benefit retirement package. Find me a private sector job in which you received 75% of your salary in retirement from just this one prong? (https://dcrb.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/dcrb/publication/attachments/SPD_Teachers_Plan_2017_Final_6-5-2018.pdf)
What does this have to do with the discussion on flexible scheduling?
Everything in life is tradeoffs. You cannot complain about a bad thing without properly judging it as penance for a good thing.
Yes, your schedule is inflexible. But it also includes relatively lavish retirement benefits, summers off, and other perks.
Likewise, cops and military can retire at 20 years with full benefits (instead of the more common 30 years). This isn't some perk-from-nowhere; it is compensation for a job in which they risk their lives and undergo physical hardship.
So, generous retirement has everything to do with inflexible daily schedules since a job is a package of attributes, not just some random things cobbled together without a connection to each other.
Considering teachers are not making it 10+ years in the field, maybe this retirement benefit isn't as big of a carrot as you think it is.
Au contraire: average number of years of teaching experience is about 15 years. See https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2007/ruraled/tables/tablea3_8.asp
That data is from 2004. I started my career in 03. This job is 3x harder now.
Come on. Don't be so damn lazy. Did you look to see if the number is still accurate?
2012: yep, still accurate (https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/sass/tables/sass1112_2013314_t12n_003.asp)
2016: yep, still accurate (https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-change/new-from-nea/who-average-us-teacher)
Dig deep and use those critical thinking skills.