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Anonymous wrote:One of the lines in the petition was that grades didn’t reflect effort and time put in. Welcome to the rest of your life, dummies!

Ha! Sorry snowflake, no standards based learning and multiple “retests” and “retakes” like our public high school.

I have no problem with retakes and retests in high school. The purpose is to have them learn the material, is it not?

So when your doctor gets your diagnosis wrong the first time, that’s ok? I mean, maybe he’ll get it the second or third time — it’s only important that they eventually got it right?

Most drs get diagnoses wrong if it’s more than a cold/flu/bacterial infection.

They are trained to treat the most probable cause, that’s not a diagnosis. They treat symptoms. They give you advice or meds and send you in your way. If you’re still sick they send you for more tests. If those come back clean they generally say, yea you’re fine. But you know you are not.

You push for more so they might get you more tests and send you to a specialist.

That’s how doctors work. They know a very narrow portion of medicine. It’s up to the patient to keep at it to get to the root cause.

If you don’t go to a top doctor you’re screwed.

Even people with infertility know, they need $$$ and the top clinic. Cancer … top clinics. Most fifties are useless past a cold or bacterial infection.

DP.. maybe but I think the point is that most people *don't want* a doctor who has to keep doing retakes. Wouldn't you want a doctor who can usually diagnose it correctly the first time?

Same for students and test taking.

I want one that learned the material .. I don’t care if it was this week or next week.

I can't tell which PP I'm agreeing with, but when you go to a top doctor, they're willing to admit your situation is unique and there's no way they know the answer already. But they ask you to repeat everything you know, and begin to research. The bad doctors, try to snow you like it's exam day.

a doctor asking you to repeat your symptoms and research your issue is not at all like a student who has to retake the exam a few times in order to pass it. It would be more like the student who studies the material, asks the prof. questions, reads the material, then again goes back to the professor with more questions, then takes the exam.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of the lines in the petition was that grades didn’t reflect effort and time put in. Welcome to the rest of your life, dummies!

Ha! Sorry snowflake, no standards based learning and multiple “retests” and “retakes” like our public high school.

I have no problem with retakes and retests in high school. The purpose is to have them learn the material, is it not?

So when your doctor gets your diagnosis wrong the first time, that’s ok? I mean, maybe he’ll get it the second or third time — it’s only important that they eventually got it right?

Most drs get diagnoses wrong if it’s more than a cold/flu/bacterial infection.

They are trained to treat the most probable cause, that’s not a diagnosis. They treat symptoms. They give you advice or meds and send you in your way. If you’re still sick they send you for more tests. If those come back clean they generally say, yea you’re fine. But you know you are not.

You push for more so they might get you more tests and send you to a specialist.

That’s how doctors work. They know a very narrow portion of medicine. It’s up to the patient to keep at it to get to the root cause.

If you don’t go to a top doctor you’re screwed.

Even people with infertility know, they need $$$ and the top clinic. Cancer … top clinics. Most fifties are useless past a cold or bacterial infection.

DP.. maybe but I think the point is that most people *don't want* a doctor who has to keep doing retakes. Wouldn't you want a doctor who can usually diagnose it correctly the first time?

Same for students and test taking.

I want one that learned the material .. I don’t care if it was this week or next week.

I can't tell which PP I'm agreeing with, but when you go to a top doctor, they're willing to admit your situation is unique and there's no way they know the answer already. But they ask you to repeat everything you know, and begin to research. The bad doctors, try to snow you like it's exam day.

Exactly it’s the student who might have to admit they need a retake that are also smart enough to call a colleague with more experience to consult. It’s the slam and cram straight A students that can’t just admit, they don’t know it,

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Anonymous wrote:Organic chemistry is hard? Who knew?

This was especially interesting in light of discussions over Covid learning loss:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/us/nyu-organic-chemistry-petition.html

“Students were misreading exam questions at an astonishing rate,” he wrote in a grievance to the university, protesting his termination. Grades fell even as he reduced the difficulty of his exams.

The problem was exacerbated by the pandemic, he said. “In the last two years, they fell off a cliff,” he wrote. “We now see single digit scores and even zeros.”

After several years of Covid learning loss, the students not only didn’t study, they didn’t seem to know how to study, Dr. Jones said.

I think the bolded portion is the hidden issue here. The brain processes information differently if you read it on a device vs in print, and it processes information on a computer screen differently from information on a phone. These students probably aren't accustomed to reading print.

Maybe if he formed the class information into a tik Tok video more students would watch and learn something. Did anyone think that kids that grew with the attention span of a gnat, having everything made easier for them, never having to work hard or REALLY put any effort in, had excuses made for them at every turn (can't read print? don't know how to study? lol), would be able to succeed in a hard class. They are waiting for someone to make it easier for them and they want to become doctors? Does anyone see the irony or how ridiculous this is?

Did u even read the article.. he did make them into you tube videos, he doesn’t even teach, he has you watch videos, read his book and do practice exams.

That was pretty much what our HSers did during the pandemic. Some did fine, others didn't. But at the college level, I would think most students who were "smart" enough to get into NYU could handle learning from watching the videos, read the book and do practice exams.

I get it you grew up thinking I pay $ and then I teach myself, because I only care about the diploma.

But now, people actually expect teachers to teach. This is not about not trying or not working hard or not doing the work. This is about not tolerating a terrible professor to continue having his job,

Why hire a professor if you just want students to watch videos, read a book and take practice exams?

Is that what you are saying the future is no teachers?

There are a lot of students who gave the teachers positive reviews. Are you saying that they didn't expect the teacher to teach?

Presumably, the professor put the videos together. What did he do during class?

Anonymous wrote:Way back in the 20th Century my husband took Professor Jones's class at Princeton. He remembers Jones fondly, but was astonished to learn that he is still teaching. DH also noted that even when Jones was in his prime, there was no way the class average on a midterm would have been 30%, as the NYT reports it was for Jones's class at NYU last spring. DH's guess is that 60-70% would have been more likely. Our two sons, both of whom have taken organic chemistry within the past five years (one is now a med student and the other is now applying to med school) opined that a professor whose students are averaging 30% on the second of two midterms is not a very good teacher. I tend to agree with them.

There's a huge flaw in your argument: you're assuming the quality of the student pool at Princeton and NYU is the same. No dog in this fight, but I know a couple of young people who were admitted to NYU in the past five years and let's just say that if the student pools are even remotely equivalent, then those admissions were clear aberrations.

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Anonymous wrote:Orgo has ALWAYS been a weed out class--from medical school and from chemistry as a major. When I took it, the average was a C.
I don't know the specifics of this guy but it's hardly new for many people to fail organic chemistry.

A “C” is, by definition, average.

would you go to just an "average" doctor?

The "C"s from organic chemistry don't get into med school, so...

But those NYU students wanted the professor get fired so that they can get a better grade to go to medical school, right?

Probably so. It's the new entitlement that average students should be admitted to med school. That's why the Bell curve works. That's why there should be a lot of "C"s given, if necessary.

Eh. Organic (and physics for that matter) is a stupid requirement for pre med students in this day and age. No practicing doctor is off mixing their own chemicals and developing drugs anymore—that’s big pharma’s domain.

The point is if they cannot get a good grade in organic chemistry, they will really struggle in medical school because the difficulty/amount of material of organic chemistry and physics mimic courses in medical school. Additionally, doctors need to be at a certain intelligent level, although they do not need to be super smart. Those NYU kids are not at that level.

Oh, bullsh*t. Make all the foreign “trained” doctors take this organic chemistry class and see if any of them pass. They’d all fail it. American medical schools and the medical industry is a cartel PURPOSELY weeding out QUALIFIED and CAPABLE American students to force wages down and justify an annual deluge of foreign “trained” physicians.

Many countries have organic chemistry as part of their medical degrees (even if they don’t require a bachelors degree prior to an MD). This is because organic chemistry is essential to understand biochemistry and metabolism, which is typically part of the curriculum in medical school.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Orgo has ALWAYS been a weed out class--from medical school and from chemistry as a major. When I took it, the average was a C.
I don't know the specifics of this guy but it's hardly new for many people to fail organic chemistry.

A “C” is, by definition, average.

would you go to just an "average" doctor?

The "C"s from organic chemistry don't get into med school, so...

But those NYU students wanted the professor get fired so that they can get a better grade to go to medical school, right?

Probably so. It's the new entitlement that average students should be admitted to med school. That's why the Bell curve works. That's why there should be a lot of "C"s given, if necessary.

Eh. Organic (and physics for that matter) is a stupid requirement for pre med students in this day and age. No practicing doctor is off mixing their own chemicals and developing drugs anymore—that’s big pharma’s domain.

The point is if they cannot get a good grade in organic chemistry, they will really struggle in medical school because the difficulty/amount of material of organic chemistry and physics mimic courses in medical school. Additionally, doctors need to be at a certain intelligent level, although they do not need to be super smart. Those NYU kids are not at that level.

Oh, bullsh*t. Make all the foreign “trained” doctors take this organic chemistry class and see if any of them pass. They’d all fail it. American medical schools and the medical industry is a cartel PURPOSELY weeding out QUALIFIED and CAPABLE American students to force wages down and justify an annual deluge of foreign “trained” physicians.

Anonymous wrote:When you purposely don’t ask for SAT scores to back door diversify and juke your US News data — you get a campus full of over-confident deluded midwit kids who had 4 years of fake As from high school. They can’t handle high-level university coursework; they lack the study skills, the reading speed, the dedication, maybe even the IQ. And many of them are shameless cheaters because practically everyone cheated at their high school for fake As.

The boomer professor is a scapegoat.

Pretty much.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of the lines in the petition was that grades didn’t reflect effort and time put in. Welcome to the rest of your life, dummies!

Ha! Sorry snowflake, no standards based learning and multiple “retests” and “retakes” like our public high school.

I have no problem with retakes and retests in high school. The purpose is to have them learn the material, is it not?

So when your doctor gets your diagnosis wrong the first time, that’s ok? I mean, maybe he’ll get it the second or third time — it’s only important that they eventually got it right?

Most drs get diagnoses wrong if it’s more than a cold/flu/bacterial infection.

They are trained to treat the most probable cause, that’s not a diagnosis. They treat symptoms. They give you advice or meds and send you in your way. If you’re still sick they send you for more tests. If those come back clean they generally say, yea you’re fine. But you know you are not.

You push for more so they might get you more tests and send you to a specialist.

That’s how doctors work. They know a very narrow portion of medicine. It’s up to the patient to keep at it to get to the root cause.

If you don’t go to a top doctor you’re screwed.

Even people with infertility know, they need $$$ and the top clinic. Cancer … top clinics. Most fifties are useless past a cold or bacterial infection.

DP.. maybe but I think the point is that most people *don't want* a doctor who has to keep doing retakes. Wouldn't you want a doctor who can usually diagnose it correctly the first time?

Same for students and test taking.

I want one that learned the material .. I don’t care if it was this week or next week.

I can't tell which PP I'm agreeing with, but when you go to a top doctor, they're willing to admit your situation is unique and there's no way they know the answer already. But they ask you to repeat everything you know, and begin to research. The bad doctors, try to snow you like it's exam day.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Organic chemistry is hard? Who knew?

This was especially interesting in light of discussions over Covid learning loss:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/us/nyu-organic-chemistry-petition.html

“Students were misreading exam questions at an astonishing rate,” he wrote in a grievance to the university, protesting his termination. Grades fell even as he reduced the difficulty of his exams.

The problem was exacerbated by the pandemic, he said. “In the last two years, they fell off a cliff,” he wrote. “We now see single digit scores and even zeros.”

After several years of Covid learning loss, the students not only didn’t study, they didn’t seem to know how to study, Dr. Jones said.

I think the bolded portion is the hidden issue here. The brain processes information differently if you read it on a device vs in print, and it processes information on a computer screen differently from information on a phone. These students probably aren't accustomed to reading print.

Maybe if he formed the class information into a tik Tok video more students would watch and learn something. Did anyone think that kids that grew with the attention span of a gnat, having everything made easier for them, never having to work hard or REALLY put any effort in, had excuses made for them at every turn (can't read print? don't know how to study? lol), would be able to succeed in a hard class. They are waiting for someone to make it easier for them and they want to become doctors? Does anyone see the irony or how ridiculous this is?

Did u even read the article.. he did make them into you tube videos, he doesn’t even teach, he has you watch videos, read his book and do practice exams.

That was pretty much what our HSers did during the pandemic. Some did fine, others didn't. But at the college level, I would think most students who were "smart" enough to get into NYU could handle learning from watching the videos, read the book and do practice exams.

I get it you grew up thinking I pay $ and then I teach myself, because I only care about the diploma.

But now, people actually expect teachers to teach. This is not about not trying or not working hard or not doing the work. This is about not tolerating a terrible professor to continue having his job,

Why hire a professor if you just want students to watch videos, read a book and take practice exams?

Is that what you are saying the future is no teachers?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of the lines in the petition was that grades didn’t reflect effort and time put in. Welcome to the rest of your life, dummies!

Ha! Sorry snowflake, no standards based learning and multiple “retests” and “retakes” like our public high school.

I have no problem with retakes and retests in high school. The purpose is to have them learn the material, is it not?

So when your doctor gets your diagnosis wrong the first time, that’s ok? I mean, maybe he’ll get it the second or third time — it’s only important that they eventually got it right?

Most drs get diagnoses wrong if it’s more than a cold/flu/bacterial infection.

They are trained to treat the most probable cause, that’s not a diagnosis. They treat symptoms. They give you advice or meds and send you in your way. If you’re still sick they send you for more tests. If those come back clean they generally say, yea you’re fine. But you know you are not.

You push for more so they might get you more tests and send you to a specialist.

That’s how doctors work. They know a very narrow portion of medicine. It’s up to the patient to keep at it to get to the root cause.

If you don’t go to a top doctor you’re screwed.

Even people with infertility know, they need $$$ and the top clinic. Cancer … top clinics. Most fifties are useless past a cold or bacterial infection.

DP.. maybe but I think the point is that most people *don't want* a doctor who has to keep doing retakes. Wouldn't you want a doctor who can usually diagnose it correctly the first time?

Same for students and test taking.

I want one that learned the material .. I don’t care if it was this week or next week.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Orgo has ALWAYS been a weed out class--from medical school and from chemistry as a major. When I took it, the average was a C.
I don't know the specifics of this guy but it's hardly new for many people to fail organic chemistry.

A “C” is, by definition, average.

would you go to just an "average" doctor?

Most of them are. That’s the thing about average.

Based on the current trend, you will not get an "average" doctor, You will get an incompetent doctor in about 8 years.

Based on the old trend, rich average white dudes, we currently have too many average doctors.

Now we have top students going to med school based on skills, not who they know.

PP, really curious what your profession is? You does not have a clue how one becomes a doctor in the old trend. I think you are confused medical schools with law schools/business schools.

I’m an engineer making medical devices.

Doctors are not really smart people. They had parents willing to pay for med school, they were good at memorizing and taking tests, they are just “good students”.

If you are really sick you will not go to the doctor closest to your house. You will go to Hopkins, or medstar or md Anderson (if you are smart). Why because you know the good doctors end up there.

10% are amazing
10% more are great
10% more are pretty good most the time
The rest leave much to be desired.

What are the source of your "amazing" "great" "pretty good" doctor %s? ? You do not know a thing about MDs. Please do not make people laugh at you.

Poor little bunny.

Your itty bitty feeling are hurt.

DP... this only makes you seem even less reliable, and really immature, too. Maybe you are the one who is butt hurt about something?

Google ad hominem and wave the white flag girl.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Orgo has ALWAYS been a weed out class--from medical school and from chemistry as a major. When I took it, the average was a C.
I don't know the specifics of this guy but it's hardly new for many people to fail organic chemistry.

A “C” is, by definition, average.

would you go to just an "average" doctor?

The "C"s from organic chemistry don't get into med school, so...

But those NYU students wanted the professor get fired so that they can get a better grade to go to medical school, right?

Probably so. It's the new entitlement that average students should be admitted to med school. That's why the Bell curve works. That's why there should be a lot of "C"s given, if necessary.

Eh. Organic (and physics for that matter) is a stupid requirement for pre med students in this day and age. No practicing doctor is off mixing their own chemicals and developing drugs anymore—that’s big pharma’s domain.

The point is if they cannot get a good grade in organic chemistry, they will really struggle in medical school because the difficulty/amount of material of organic chemistry and physics mimic courses in medical school. Additionally, doctors need to be at a certain intelligent level, although they do not need to be super smart. Those NYU kids are not at that level.

Latin makes more sense.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Orgo has ALWAYS been a weed out class--from medical school and from chemistry as a major. When I took it, the average was a C.
I don't know the specifics of this guy but it's hardly new for many people to fail organic chemistry.

A “C” is, by definition, average.

would you go to just an "average" doctor?

The "C"s from organic chemistry don't get into med school, so...

But those NYU students wanted the professor get fired so that they can get a better grade to go to medical school, right?

Probably so. It's the new entitlement that average students should be admitted to med school. That's why the Bell curve works. That's why there should be a lot of "C"s given, if necessary.

Eh. Organic (and physics for that matter) is a stupid requirement for pre med students in this day and age. No practicing doctor is off mixing their own chemicals and developing drugs anymore—that’s big pharma’s domain.

The point is if they cannot get a good grade in organic chemistry, they will really struggle in medical school because the difficulty/amount of material of organic chemistry and physics mimic courses in medical school. Additionally, doctors need to be at a certain intelligent level, although they do not need to be super smart. Those NYU kids are not at that level.

Anonymous wrote:I feel like there has to be a lot more going on there. (And no I'm not going to take the time to get past the paywall to find out what it is).

But the points about learning loss are important. And yet on the other other hand, why are we acknowledging learning loss but not helping students deal with it? There are schools at all levels are doing the same thing, just plowing through as though the kids had actually had good instruction. They should have had all those students take a remedial chemistry class over the summer or something.

Yep. I recently had two conversations about student preparedness with professors in the same department at different schools. They both said there was a clear difference in preparation post COVID. But one school was moving people down, the other school was encouraging students to challenge themselves, and telling them not to retake a course they'd already completed. The professor at the second school said a loss of confidence was a big part of the issue. Students know they missed out on some of high school and are worried, but they don't realize high school was never more than a first introduction to topics. It's much easier to teach an advanced course to more mature audience. The teacher at the second school said they're coming in less prepared, but also learning much more quickly and deeply engaged.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Orgo has ALWAYS been a weed out class--from medical school and from chemistry as a major. When I took it, the average was a C.
I don't know the specifics of this guy but it's hardly new for many people to fail organic chemistry.

A “C” is, by definition, average.

would you go to just an "average" doctor?

The "C"s from organic chemistry don't get into med school, so...

But those NYU students wanted the professor get fired so that they can get a better grade to go to medical school, right?

Probably so. It's the new entitlement that average students should be admitted to med school. That's why the Bell curve works. That's why there should be a lot of "C"s given, if necessary.

Eh. Organic (and physics for that matter) is a stupid requirement for pre med students in this day and age. No practicing doctor is off mixing their own chemicals and developing drugs anymore—that’s big pharma’s domain.