Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hope Kenwood wins. I don’t live there but need to drive there most weekdays and get stuck in traffic now like never before. I’m a liberal democrat and the county’s approach to roads is infuriating. Between this, Old Georgetown, and now Tuckerman, they are brazenly attempting to reshape the county roads without an actual plan of how this affects people day to day. Quite frustrating.

1. There actually are plans. Nobody just woke up one fine morning and said, You know what? Today is a great day to start repaving and restriping Old Georgetown Road!
2. When you consider "how this affects people day to day", please also include (a) people who are not driving and (b) people who were killed on those roads.

Stop the hyperbole. It’s so ridiculous and make you look silly. No one has ever been killed in a car accident or by any other means along Little Falls Parkway in the 3 decades I have lived here. There was one fatality at the intersection of Little Falls Parkway and the CCT, following which they reduced the lanes at that specific intersection and no one had died since.

So nobody has been killed on Little Falls Parkway, except for the person who was killed on Little Falls Parkway, but that's ok because nobody else has been killed on Little Falls Parkway since...

They were killed at the intersection with the trail not “along the parkway”.

They also died because they failed to heed stop signs on the trail and failed to yield crossing the road. They broke the law and unfortunately paid with their life.

We don't have instant capital punishment for people who disobey stop signs. If we did, 99% of drivers in Montgomery County would be dead. I say that as a driver.

Jumping into a pool without knowing how to swim and then drowning is not “capital punishment”. Try again.

The person who was driving and killed Ned Gaylin might have a different view of the case. I don't know about you, but when I'm driving, I don't want to kill anybody, whether they stopped or didn't stop at a stop sign. If safety improvements reduce my chances of hitting or killing somebody, I'm all for them.

There was nothing the driver could do. Gaylin pulled out in front of him. He wasn’t going that fast, and all indications were that Gaylin would survive when the ambulance took him to the hospital. I used to see Gaylin around on his bike and he never stopped. Luckily for him, all but one driver was able to stop and prevent a deadly collision. Unfortunately for him, one couldn’t. Redesigning the road was an overreaction. His death wasn’t a punishment. No one had any intent to punish. It was the outcome of his own recklessness.

That is a lot of words to obscure these facts:

1. Ned Gaylin was killed
2. Someone who was driving killed him with their car
3. The design was dangerous (and was known to be dangerous)

4. Ned Gaylin’s own reckless conduct caused the collision and his death. If he did the same thing today he’d still die. Vision Zero is a folly unless people take responsibility for their own safety and follow the rules. People can make any design deadly. Ned Gaylin is proof of that.

I don't think you understand Vision Zero. Vision Zero says that roads should be safe for everyone EVEN WHEN people DON'T follow the rules.

I do understand that. I’m saying it doesn’t work. Sorry to be vague before.

OK, but actually it does work.

Show me the best intersection you can find and I’ll find ways people can make it fatal by breaking the rules.

How about the intersection of North Tioga Street and East State Street in Ithaca, New York?

^^^but honestly your point is indefensible regardless. Maybe we can't get the number of road deaths to 0. Maybe we can only get them to 1. That's worth doing.

No it’s literally not. If risks were above unacceptable levels yes. If people following the rules are routinely dying yes. However that’s not what’s happening. Very few people are dying and the ones that do are doing really reckless things.

Well. I guess you find the current number of dead bodies acceptable. I don't. And honestly, I don't care whether or not they were "following the rules". Evidently you want the righteous to prosper and the wicked to be punished. What I want is roads that are safe for everyone. A safe system. We don't have that.

DP. I don’t want anyone to be punished but there’s only so much you can do when people don’t care about their own safety.

If you think the number of cyclists who die every year is a lot just wait until you look at the homicide stats.

What an odd assumption, that people don't care about their own safety. Of course people care about their own safety. That's like saying, if you cared about your own safety, you wouldn't get into a car.

However, even if it were true, we're still nowhere near the point of having done as much as we can do.

It's also an odd assumption that this is only about people riding bikes.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/pedestrian-deaths-in-u-s-reach-highest-level-in-40-years

If you do dangerous things that require affirmative action on the part of some other person to avoid serious injury or death, it’s safe to conclude you don’t care about your own safety because you’re letting someone else who you don’t know or who could be distracted or who could be impaired determine whether you live or die.

This happens to me every time I cross a road on foot. I assure you that I do care about my own safety.

Every time? That’s false.

PP you're responding to. Ok, you're right, not every time. It doesn't happen to me when I cross the road on foot and there are zero cars on the road.

That’s good. You should wait for a break in traffic and make sure drivers and cyclists see you before you enter the road.

It’s also a good idea for them to wait for the light before crossing as well. I can understand feeling afraid for one’s life if I was jaywalking every time I crossed a busy street too.

I'm guessing that you don't walk anywhere near streets with a lot of traffic. I'm sure you walk in parking lots, though. In Montgomery County, a quarter of crashes involving pedestrians occur in parking lots, including 10% of serious and fatal crashes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am pro-biking but it's kind of absurd to link the accident where the trail crosses Little Falls to speed bumps on the other side of Mass Ave where the trail is entirely protected, with no road access to the trail or even sidewalks just because they are both on Little Falls.

If Wisconsin Ave has a dangerous intersection where we have stop lights does that mean we are going to put speed bumps from Rockville to Tenleytown?

Those speed bumps are just annoying and dumb. If you really want to just make people slow down at least put up a speed camera.

Wisconsin Avenue has a lot of dangerous intersections where we have stop lights. Speed cameras are great, but state law limits where they're allowed to go, and they only start ticketing at 12 mph over the speed limit. So if the speed limit is 25, they don't start ticketing until 37 mph. Anyway, it's not speed bumps OR speed cameras OR whatever, it's all of those, in combination. All of the tools in the tool box, not just one.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hope Kenwood wins. I don’t live there but need to drive there most weekdays and get stuck in traffic now like never before. I’m a liberal democrat and the county’s approach to roads is infuriating. Between this, Old Georgetown, and now Tuckerman, they are brazenly attempting to reshape the county roads without an actual plan of how this affects people day to day. Quite frustrating.

1. There actually are plans. Nobody just woke up one fine morning and said, You know what? Today is a great day to start repaving and restriping Old Georgetown Road!
2. When you consider "how this affects people day to day", please also include (a) people who are not driving and (b) people who were killed on those roads.

Stop the hyperbole. It’s so ridiculous and make you look silly. No one has ever been killed in a car accident or by any other means along Little Falls Parkway in the 3 decades I have lived here. There was one fatality at the intersection of Little Falls Parkway and the CCT, following which they reduced the lanes at that specific intersection and no one had died since.

So nobody has been killed on Little Falls Parkway, except for the person who was killed on Little Falls Parkway, but that's ok because nobody else has been killed on Little Falls Parkway since...

They were killed at the intersection with the trail not “along the parkway”.

They also died because they failed to heed stop signs on the trail and failed to yield crossing the road. They broke the law and unfortunately paid with their life.

We don't have instant capital punishment for people who disobey stop signs. If we did, 99% of drivers in Montgomery County would be dead. I say that as a driver.

Jumping into a pool without knowing how to swim and then drowning is not “capital punishment”. Try again.

The person who was driving and killed Ned Gaylin might have a different view of the case. I don't know about you, but when I'm driving, I don't want to kill anybody, whether they stopped or didn't stop at a stop sign. If safety improvements reduce my chances of hitting or killing somebody, I'm all for them.

There was nothing the driver could do. Gaylin pulled out in front of him. He wasn’t going that fast, and all indications were that Gaylin would survive when the ambulance took him to the hospital. I used to see Gaylin around on his bike and he never stopped. Luckily for him, all but one driver was able to stop and prevent a deadly collision. Unfortunately for him, one couldn’t. Redesigning the road was an overreaction. His death wasn’t a punishment. No one had any intent to punish. It was the outcome of his own recklessness.

That is a lot of words to obscure these facts:

1. Ned Gaylin was killed
2. Someone who was driving killed him with their car
3. The design was dangerous (and was known to be dangerous)

4. Ned Gaylin’s own reckless conduct caused the collision and his death. If he did the same thing today he’d still die. Vision Zero is a folly unless people take responsibility for their own safety and follow the rules. People can make any design deadly. Ned Gaylin is proof of that.

I don't think you understand Vision Zero. Vision Zero says that roads should be safe for everyone EVEN WHEN people DON'T follow the rules.

I do understand that. I’m saying it doesn’t work. Sorry to be vague before.

OK, but actually it does work.

Show me the best intersection you can find and I’ll find ways people can make it fatal by breaking the rules.

How about the intersection of North Tioga Street and East State Street in Ithaca, New York?

^^^but honestly your point is indefensible regardless. Maybe we can't get the number of road deaths to 0. Maybe we can only get them to 1. That's worth doing.

No it’s literally not. If risks were above unacceptable levels yes. If people following the rules are routinely dying yes. However that’s not what’s happening. Very few people are dying and the ones that do are doing really reckless things.

Well. I guess you find the current number of dead bodies acceptable. I don't. And honestly, I don't care whether or not they were "following the rules". Evidently you want the righteous to prosper and the wicked to be punished. What I want is roads that are safe for everyone. A safe system. We don't have that.

DP. I don’t want anyone to be punished but there’s only so much you can do when people don’t care about their own safety.

If you think the number of cyclists who die every year is a lot just wait until you look at the homicide stats.

What an odd assumption, that people don't care about their own safety. Of course people care about their own safety. That's like saying, if you cared about your own safety, you wouldn't get into a car.

However, even if it were true, we're still nowhere near the point of having done as much as we can do.

It's also an odd assumption that this is only about people riding bikes.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/pedestrian-deaths-in-u-s-reach-highest-level-in-40-years

If you do dangerous things that require affirmative action on the part of some other person to avoid serious injury or death, it’s safe to conclude you don’t care about your own safety because you’re letting someone else who you don’t know or who could be distracted or who could be impaired determine whether you live or die.

This happens to me every time I cross a road on foot. I assure you that I do care about my own safety.

Every time? That’s false.

PP you're responding to. Ok, you're right, not every time. It doesn't happen to me when I cross the road on foot and there are zero cars on the road.

That’s good. You should wait for a break in traffic and make sure drivers and cyclists see you before you enter the road.

It’s also a good idea for them to wait for the light before crossing as well. I can understand feeling afraid for one’s life if I was jaywalking every time I crossed a busy street too.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hope Kenwood wins. I don’t live there but need to drive there most weekdays and get stuck in traffic now like never before. I’m a liberal democrat and the county’s approach to roads is infuriating. Between this, Old Georgetown, and now Tuckerman, they are brazenly attempting to reshape the county roads without an actual plan of how this affects people day to day. Quite frustrating.

1. There actually are plans. Nobody just woke up one fine morning and said, You know what? Today is a great day to start repaving and restriping Old Georgetown Road!
2. When you consider "how this affects people day to day", please also include (a) people who are not driving and (b) people who were killed on those roads.

Stop the hyperbole. It’s so ridiculous and make you look silly. No one has ever been killed in a car accident or by any other means along Little Falls Parkway in the 3 decades I have lived here. There was one fatality at the intersection of Little Falls Parkway and the CCT, following which they reduced the lanes at that specific intersection and no one had died since.

So nobody has been killed on Little Falls Parkway, except for the person who was killed on Little Falls Parkway, but that's ok because nobody else has been killed on Little Falls Parkway since...

They were killed at the intersection with the trail not “along the parkway”.

They also died because they failed to heed stop signs on the trail and failed to yield crossing the road. They broke the law and unfortunately paid with their life.

We don't have instant capital punishment for people who disobey stop signs. If we did, 99% of drivers in Montgomery County would be dead. I say that as a driver.

Jumping into a pool without knowing how to swim and then drowning is not “capital punishment”. Try again.

The person who was driving and killed Ned Gaylin might have a different view of the case. I don't know about you, but when I'm driving, I don't want to kill anybody, whether they stopped or didn't stop at a stop sign. If safety improvements reduce my chances of hitting or killing somebody, I'm all for them.

There was nothing the driver could do. Gaylin pulled out in front of him. He wasn’t going that fast, and all indications were that Gaylin would survive when the ambulance took him to the hospital. I used to see Gaylin around on his bike and he never stopped. Luckily for him, all but one driver was able to stop and prevent a deadly collision. Unfortunately for him, one couldn’t. Redesigning the road was an overreaction. His death wasn’t a punishment. No one had any intent to punish. It was the outcome of his own recklessness.

That is a lot of words to obscure these facts:

1. Ned Gaylin was killed
2. Someone who was driving killed him with their car
3. The design was dangerous (and was known to be dangerous)

4. Ned Gaylin’s own reckless conduct caused the collision and his death. If he did the same thing today he’d still die. Vision Zero is a folly unless people take responsibility for their own safety and follow the rules. People can make any design deadly. Ned Gaylin is proof of that.

I don't think you understand Vision Zero. Vision Zero says that roads should be safe for everyone EVEN WHEN people DON'T follow the rules.

I do understand that. I’m saying it doesn’t work. Sorry to be vague before.

OK, but actually it does work.

Show me the best intersection you can find and I’ll find ways people can make it fatal by breaking the rules.

How about the intersection of North Tioga Street and East State Street in Ithaca, New York?

^^^but honestly your point is indefensible regardless. Maybe we can't get the number of road deaths to 0. Maybe we can only get them to 1. That's worth doing.

No it’s literally not. If risks were above unacceptable levels yes. If people following the rules are routinely dying yes. However that’s not what’s happening. Very few people are dying and the ones that do are doing really reckless things.

Well. I guess you find the current number of dead bodies acceptable. I don't. And honestly, I don't care whether or not they were "following the rules". Evidently you want the righteous to prosper and the wicked to be punished. What I want is roads that are safe for everyone. A safe system. We don't have that.

DP. I don’t want anyone to be punished but there’s only so much you can do when people don’t care about their own safety.

If you think the number of cyclists who die every year is a lot just wait until you look at the homicide stats.

What an odd assumption, that people don't care about their own safety. Of course people care about their own safety. That's like saying, if you cared about your own safety, you wouldn't get into a car.

However, even if it were true, we're still nowhere near the point of having done as much as we can do.

It's also an odd assumption that this is only about people riding bikes.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/pedestrian-deaths-in-u-s-reach-highest-level-in-40-years

If you do dangerous things that require affirmative action on the part of some other person to avoid serious injury or death, it’s safe to conclude you don’t care about your own safety because you’re letting someone else who you don’t know or who could be distracted or who could be impaired determine whether you live or die.

This happens to me every time I cross a road on foot. I assure you that I do care about my own safety.

Every time? That’s false.

PP you're responding to. Ok, you're right, not every time. It doesn't happen to me when I cross the road on foot and there are zero cars on the road.

That’s good. You should wait for a break in traffic and make sure drivers and cyclists see you before you enter the road.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hope Kenwood wins. I don’t live there but need to drive there most weekdays and get stuck in traffic now like never before. I’m a liberal democrat and the county’s approach to roads is infuriating. Between this, Old Georgetown, and now Tuckerman, they are brazenly attempting to reshape the county roads without an actual plan of how this affects people day to day. Quite frustrating.

1. There actually are plans. Nobody just woke up one fine morning and said, You know what? Today is a great day to start repaving and restriping Old Georgetown Road!
2. When you consider "how this affects people day to day", please also include (a) people who are not driving and (b) people who were killed on those roads.

Stop the hyperbole. It’s so ridiculous and make you look silly. No one has ever been killed in a car accident or by any other means along Little Falls Parkway in the 3 decades I have lived here. There was one fatality at the intersection of Little Falls Parkway and the CCT, following which they reduced the lanes at that specific intersection and no one had died since.

So nobody has been killed on Little Falls Parkway, except for the person who was killed on Little Falls Parkway, but that's ok because nobody else has been killed on Little Falls Parkway since...

They were killed at the intersection with the trail not “along the parkway”.

They also died because they failed to heed stop signs on the trail and failed to yield crossing the road. They broke the law and unfortunately paid with their life.

We don't have instant capital punishment for people who disobey stop signs. If we did, 99% of drivers in Montgomery County would be dead. I say that as a driver.

Jumping into a pool without knowing how to swim and then drowning is not “capital punishment”. Try again.

The person who was driving and killed Ned Gaylin might have a different view of the case. I don't know about you, but when I'm driving, I don't want to kill anybody, whether they stopped or didn't stop at a stop sign. If safety improvements reduce my chances of hitting or killing somebody, I'm all for them.

There was nothing the driver could do. Gaylin pulled out in front of him. He wasn’t going that fast, and all indications were that Gaylin would survive when the ambulance took him to the hospital. I used to see Gaylin around on his bike and he never stopped. Luckily for him, all but one driver was able to stop and prevent a deadly collision. Unfortunately for him, one couldn’t. Redesigning the road was an overreaction. His death wasn’t a punishment. No one had any intent to punish. It was the outcome of his own recklessness.

That is a lot of words to obscure these facts:

1. Ned Gaylin was killed
2. Someone who was driving killed him with their car
3. The design was dangerous (and was known to be dangerous)

4. Ned Gaylin’s own reckless conduct caused the collision and his death. If he did the same thing today he’d still die. Vision Zero is a folly unless people take responsibility for their own safety and follow the rules. People can make any design deadly. Ned Gaylin is proof of that.

I don't think you understand Vision Zero. Vision Zero says that roads should be safe for everyone EVEN WHEN people DON'T follow the rules.

I do understand that. I’m saying it doesn’t work. Sorry to be vague before.

OK, but actually it does work.

Show me the best intersection you can find and I’ll find ways people can make it fatal by breaking the rules.

How about the intersection of North Tioga Street and East State Street in Ithaca, New York?

^^^but honestly your point is indefensible regardless. Maybe we can't get the number of road deaths to 0. Maybe we can only get them to 1. That's worth doing.

No it’s literally not. If risks were above unacceptable levels yes. If people following the rules are routinely dying yes. However that’s not what’s happening. Very few people are dying and the ones that do are doing really reckless things.

Well. I guess you find the current number of dead bodies acceptable. I don't. And honestly, I don't care whether or not they were "following the rules". Evidently you want the righteous to prosper and the wicked to be punished. What I want is roads that are safe for everyone. A safe system. We don't have that.

DP. I don’t want anyone to be punished but there’s only so much you can do when people don’t care about their own safety.

If you think the number of cyclists who die every year is a lot just wait until you look at the homicide stats.

What an odd assumption, that people don't care about their own safety. Of course people care about their own safety. That's like saying, if you cared about your own safety, you wouldn't get into a car.

However, even if it were true, we're still nowhere near the point of having done as much as we can do.

It's also an odd assumption that this is only about people riding bikes.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/pedestrian-deaths-in-u-s-reach-highest-level-in-40-years

If you do dangerous things that require affirmative action on the part of some other person to avoid serious injury or death, it’s safe to conclude you don’t care about your own safety because you’re letting someone else who you don’t know or who could be distracted or who could be impaired determine whether you live or die.

This happens to me every time I cross a road on foot. I assure you that I do care about my own safety.

Every time? That’s false.

PP you're responding to. Ok, you're right, not every time. It doesn't happen to me when I cross the road on foot and there are zero cars on the road.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hope Kenwood wins. I don’t live there but need to drive there most weekdays and get stuck in traffic now like never before. I’m a liberal democrat and the county’s approach to roads is infuriating. Between this, Old Georgetown, and now Tuckerman, they are brazenly attempting to reshape the county roads without an actual plan of how this affects people day to day. Quite frustrating.

1. There actually are plans. Nobody just woke up one fine morning and said, You know what? Today is a great day to start repaving and restriping Old Georgetown Road!
2. When you consider "how this affects people day to day", please also include (a) people who are not driving and (b) people who were killed on those roads.

Stop the hyperbole. It’s so ridiculous and make you look silly. No one has ever been killed in a car accident or by any other means along Little Falls Parkway in the 3 decades I have lived here. There was one fatality at the intersection of Little Falls Parkway and the CCT, following which they reduced the lanes at that specific intersection and no one had died since.

So nobody has been killed on Little Falls Parkway, except for the person who was killed on Little Falls Parkway, but that's ok because nobody else has been killed on Little Falls Parkway since...

They were killed at the intersection with the trail not “along the parkway”.

They also died because they failed to heed stop signs on the trail and failed to yield crossing the road. They broke the law and unfortunately paid with their life.

We don't have instant capital punishment for people who disobey stop signs. If we did, 99% of drivers in Montgomery County would be dead. I say that as a driver.

Jumping into a pool without knowing how to swim and then drowning is not “capital punishment”. Try again.

The person who was driving and killed Ned Gaylin might have a different view of the case. I don't know about you, but when I'm driving, I don't want to kill anybody, whether they stopped or didn't stop at a stop sign. If safety improvements reduce my chances of hitting or killing somebody, I'm all for them.

There was nothing the driver could do. Gaylin pulled out in front of him. He wasn’t going that fast, and all indications were that Gaylin would survive when the ambulance took him to the hospital. I used to see Gaylin around on his bike and he never stopped. Luckily for him, all but one driver was able to stop and prevent a deadly collision. Unfortunately for him, one couldn’t. Redesigning the road was an overreaction. His death wasn’t a punishment. No one had any intent to punish. It was the outcome of his own recklessness.

That is a lot of words to obscure these facts:

1. Ned Gaylin was killed
2. Someone who was driving killed him with their car
3. The design was dangerous (and was known to be dangerous)

4. Ned Gaylin’s own reckless conduct caused the collision and his death. If he did the same thing today he’d still die. Vision Zero is a folly unless people take responsibility for their own safety and follow the rules. People can make any design deadly. Ned Gaylin is proof of that.

I don't think you understand Vision Zero. Vision Zero says that roads should be safe for everyone EVEN WHEN people DON'T follow the rules.

I do understand that. I’m saying it doesn’t work. Sorry to be vague before.

OK, but actually it does work.

Show me the best intersection you can find and I’ll find ways people can make it fatal by breaking the rules.

How about the intersection of North Tioga Street and East State Street in Ithaca, New York?

^^^but honestly your point is indefensible regardless. Maybe we can't get the number of road deaths to 0. Maybe we can only get them to 1. That's worth doing.

No it’s literally not. If risks were above unacceptable levels yes. If people following the rules are routinely dying yes. However that’s not what’s happening. Very few people are dying and the ones that do are doing really reckless things.

Well. I guess you find the current number of dead bodies acceptable. I don't. And honestly, I don't care whether or not they were "following the rules". Evidently you want the righteous to prosper and the wicked to be punished. What I want is roads that are safe for everyone. A safe system. We don't have that.

DP. I don’t want anyone to be punished but there’s only so much you can do when people don’t care about their own safety.

If you think the number of cyclists who die every year is a lot just wait until you look at the homicide stats.

What an odd assumption, that people don't care about their own safety. Of course people care about their own safety. That's like saying, if you cared about your own safety, you wouldn't get into a car.

However, even if it were true, we're still nowhere near the point of having done as much as we can do.

It's also an odd assumption that this is only about people riding bikes.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/pedestrian-deaths-in-u-s-reach-highest-level-in-40-years

If you do dangerous things that require affirmative action on the part of some other person to avoid serious injury or death, it’s safe to conclude you don’t care about your own safety because you’re letting someone else who you don’t know or who could be distracted or who could be impaired determine whether you live or die.

This happens to me every time I cross a road on foot. I assure you that I do care about my own safety.

Every time? That’s false.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hope Kenwood wins. I don’t live there but need to drive there most weekdays and get stuck in traffic now like never before. I’m a liberal democrat and the county’s approach to roads is infuriating. Between this, Old Georgetown, and now Tuckerman, they are brazenly attempting to reshape the county roads without an actual plan of how this affects people day to day. Quite frustrating.

1. There actually are plans. Nobody just woke up one fine morning and said, You know what? Today is a great day to start repaving and restriping Old Georgetown Road!
2. When you consider "how this affects people day to day", please also include (a) people who are not driving and (b) people who were killed on those roads.

Stop the hyperbole. It’s so ridiculous and make you look silly. No one has ever been killed in a car accident or by any other means along Little Falls Parkway in the 3 decades I have lived here. There was one fatality at the intersection of Little Falls Parkway and the CCT, following which they reduced the lanes at that specific intersection and no one had died since.

So nobody has been killed on Little Falls Parkway, except for the person who was killed on Little Falls Parkway, but that's ok because nobody else has been killed on Little Falls Parkway since...

They were killed at the intersection with the trail not “along the parkway”.

They also died because they failed to heed stop signs on the trail and failed to yield crossing the road. They broke the law and unfortunately paid with their life.

We don't have instant capital punishment for people who disobey stop signs. If we did, 99% of drivers in Montgomery County would be dead. I say that as a driver.

Jumping into a pool without knowing how to swim and then drowning is not “capital punishment”. Try again.

The person who was driving and killed Ned Gaylin might have a different view of the case. I don't know about you, but when I'm driving, I don't want to kill anybody, whether they stopped or didn't stop at a stop sign. If safety improvements reduce my chances of hitting or killing somebody, I'm all for them.

There was nothing the driver could do. Gaylin pulled out in front of him. He wasn’t going that fast, and all indications were that Gaylin would survive when the ambulance took him to the hospital. I used to see Gaylin around on his bike and he never stopped. Luckily for him, all but one driver was able to stop and prevent a deadly collision. Unfortunately for him, one couldn’t. Redesigning the road was an overreaction. His death wasn’t a punishment. No one had any intent to punish. It was the outcome of his own recklessness.

That is a lot of words to obscure these facts:

1. Ned Gaylin was killed
2. Someone who was driving killed him with their car
3. The design was dangerous (and was known to be dangerous)

4. Ned Gaylin’s own reckless conduct caused the collision and his death. If he did the same thing today he’d still die. Vision Zero is a folly unless people take responsibility for their own safety and follow the rules. People can make any design deadly. Ned Gaylin is proof of that.

I don't think you understand Vision Zero. Vision Zero says that roads should be safe for everyone EVEN WHEN people DON'T follow the rules.

I do understand that. I’m saying it doesn’t work. Sorry to be vague before.

OK, but actually it does work.

Show me the best intersection you can find and I’ll find ways people can make it fatal by breaking the rules.

How about the intersection of North Tioga Street and East State Street in Ithaca, New York?

^^^but honestly your point is indefensible regardless. Maybe we can't get the number of road deaths to 0. Maybe we can only get them to 1. That's worth doing.

No it’s literally not. If risks were above unacceptable levels yes. If people following the rules are routinely dying yes. However that’s not what’s happening. Very few people are dying and the ones that do are doing really reckless things.

Well. I guess you find the current number of dead bodies acceptable. I don't. And honestly, I don't care whether or not they were "following the rules". Evidently you want the righteous to prosper and the wicked to be punished. What I want is roads that are safe for everyone. A safe system. We don't have that.

DP. I don’t want anyone to be punished but there’s only so much you can do when people don’t care about their own safety.

If you think the number of cyclists who die every year is a lot just wait until you look at the homicide stats.

What an odd assumption, that people don't care about their own safety. Of course people care about their own safety. That's like saying, if you cared about your own safety, you wouldn't get into a car.

However, even if it were true, we're still nowhere near the point of having done as much as we can do.

It's also an odd assumption that this is only about people riding bikes.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/pedestrian-deaths-in-u-s-reach-highest-level-in-40-years

If you do dangerous things that require affirmative action on the part of some other person to avoid serious injury or death, it’s safe to conclude you don’t care about your own safety because you’re letting someone else who you don’t know or who could be distracted or who could be impaired determine whether you live or die.

This happens to me every time I cross a road on foot. I assure you that I do care about my own safety.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hope Kenwood wins. I don’t live there but need to drive there most weekdays and get stuck in traffic now like never before. I’m a liberal democrat and the county’s approach to roads is infuriating. Between this, Old Georgetown, and now Tuckerman, they are brazenly attempting to reshape the county roads without an actual plan of how this affects people day to day. Quite frustrating.

1. There actually are plans. Nobody just woke up one fine morning and said, You know what? Today is a great day to start repaving and restriping Old Georgetown Road!
2. When you consider "how this affects people day to day", please also include (a) people who are not driving and (b) people who were killed on those roads.

Stop the hyperbole. It’s so ridiculous and make you look silly. No one has ever been killed in a car accident or by any other means along Little Falls Parkway in the 3 decades I have lived here. There was one fatality at the intersection of Little Falls Parkway and the CCT, following which they reduced the lanes at that specific intersection and no one had died since.

So nobody has been killed on Little Falls Parkway, except for the person who was killed on Little Falls Parkway, but that's ok because nobody else has been killed on Little Falls Parkway since...

They were killed at the intersection with the trail not “along the parkway”.

They also died because they failed to heed stop signs on the trail and failed to yield crossing the road. They broke the law and unfortunately paid with their life.

We don't have instant capital punishment for people who disobey stop signs. If we did, 99% of drivers in Montgomery County would be dead. I say that as a driver.

Jumping into a pool without knowing how to swim and then drowning is not “capital punishment”. Try again.

The person who was driving and killed Ned Gaylin might have a different view of the case. I don't know about you, but when I'm driving, I don't want to kill anybody, whether they stopped or didn't stop at a stop sign. If safety improvements reduce my chances of hitting or killing somebody, I'm all for them.

There was nothing the driver could do. Gaylin pulled out in front of him. He wasn’t going that fast, and all indications were that Gaylin would survive when the ambulance took him to the hospital. I used to see Gaylin around on his bike and he never stopped. Luckily for him, all but one driver was able to stop and prevent a deadly collision. Unfortunately for him, one couldn’t. Redesigning the road was an overreaction. His death wasn’t a punishment. No one had any intent to punish. It was the outcome of his own recklessness.

That is a lot of words to obscure these facts:

1. Ned Gaylin was killed
2. Someone who was driving killed him with their car
3. The design was dangerous (and was known to be dangerous)

4. Ned Gaylin’s own reckless conduct caused the collision and his death. If he did the same thing today he’d still die. Vision Zero is a folly unless people take responsibility for their own safety and follow the rules. People can make any design deadly. Ned Gaylin is proof of that.

I don't think you understand Vision Zero. Vision Zero says that roads should be safe for everyone EVEN WHEN people DON'T follow the rules.

I do understand that. I’m saying it doesn’t work. Sorry to be vague before.

OK, but actually it does work.

Show me the best intersection you can find and I’ll find ways people can make it fatal by breaking the rules.

How about the intersection of North Tioga Street and East State Street in Ithaca, New York?

^^^but honestly your point is indefensible regardless. Maybe we can't get the number of road deaths to 0. Maybe we can only get them to 1. That's worth doing.

No it’s literally not. If risks were above unacceptable levels yes. If people following the rules are routinely dying yes. However that’s not what’s happening. Very few people are dying and the ones that do are doing really reckless things.

Well. I guess you find the current number of dead bodies acceptable. I don't. And honestly, I don't care whether or not they were "following the rules". Evidently you want the righteous to prosper and the wicked to be punished. What I want is roads that are safe for everyone. A safe system. We don't have that.

DP. I don’t want anyone to be punished but there’s only so much you can do when people don’t care about their own safety.

If you think the number of cyclists who die every year is a lot just wait until you look at the homicide stats.

What an odd assumption, that people don't care about their own safety. Of course people care about their own safety. That's like saying, if you cared about your own safety, you wouldn't get into a car.

However, even if it were true, we're still nowhere near the point of having done as much as we can do.

It's also an odd assumption that this is only about people riding bikes.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/pedestrian-deaths-in-u-s-reach-highest-level-in-40-years

If you do dangerous things that require affirmative action on the part of some other person to avoid serious injury or death, it’s safe to conclude you don’t care about your own safety because you’re letting someone else who you don’t know or who could be distracted or who could be impaired determine whether you live or die.

This happens to me every time I cross a road on foot. I assure you that I do care about my own safety.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hope Kenwood wins. I don’t live there but need to drive there most weekdays and get stuck in traffic now like never before. I’m a liberal democrat and the county’s approach to roads is infuriating. Between this, Old Georgetown, and now Tuckerman, they are brazenly attempting to reshape the county roads without an actual plan of how this affects people day to day. Quite frustrating.

1. There actually are plans. Nobody just woke up one fine morning and said, You know what? Today is a great day to start repaving and restriping Old Georgetown Road!
2. When you consider "how this affects people day to day", please also include (a) people who are not driving and (b) people who were killed on those roads.

Stop the hyperbole. It’s so ridiculous and make you look silly. No one has ever been killed in a car accident or by any other means along Little Falls Parkway in the 3 decades I have lived here. There was one fatality at the intersection of Little Falls Parkway and the CCT, following which they reduced the lanes at that specific intersection and no one had died since.

So nobody has been killed on Little Falls Parkway, except for the person who was killed on Little Falls Parkway, but that's ok because nobody else has been killed on Little Falls Parkway since...

They were killed at the intersection with the trail not “along the parkway”.

They also died because they failed to heed stop signs on the trail and failed to yield crossing the road. They broke the law and unfortunately paid with their life.

We don't have instant capital punishment for people who disobey stop signs. If we did, 99% of drivers in Montgomery County would be dead. I say that as a driver.

Jumping into a pool without knowing how to swim and then drowning is not “capital punishment”. Try again.

The person who was driving and killed Ned Gaylin might have a different view of the case. I don't know about you, but when I'm driving, I don't want to kill anybody, whether they stopped or didn't stop at a stop sign. If safety improvements reduce my chances of hitting or killing somebody, I'm all for them.

There was nothing the driver could do. Gaylin pulled out in front of him. He wasn’t going that fast, and all indications were that Gaylin would survive when the ambulance took him to the hospital. I used to see Gaylin around on his bike and he never stopped. Luckily for him, all but one driver was able to stop and prevent a deadly collision. Unfortunately for him, one couldn’t. Redesigning the road was an overreaction. His death wasn’t a punishment. No one had any intent to punish. It was the outcome of his own recklessness.

That is a lot of words to obscure these facts:

1. Ned Gaylin was killed
2. Someone who was driving killed him with their car
3. The design was dangerous (and was known to be dangerous)

4. Ned Gaylin’s own reckless conduct caused the collision and his death. If he did the same thing today he’d still die. Vision Zero is a folly unless people take responsibility for their own safety and follow the rules. People can make any design deadly. Ned Gaylin is proof of that.

I don't think you understand Vision Zero. Vision Zero says that roads should be safe for everyone EVEN WHEN people DON'T follow the rules.

I do understand that. I’m saying it doesn’t work. Sorry to be vague before.

OK, but actually it does work.

Show me the best intersection you can find and I’ll find ways people can make it fatal by breaking the rules.

How about the intersection of North Tioga Street and East State Street in Ithaca, New York?

^^^but honestly your point is indefensible regardless. Maybe we can't get the number of road deaths to 0. Maybe we can only get them to 1. That's worth doing.

No it’s literally not. If risks were above unacceptable levels yes. If people following the rules are routinely dying yes. However that’s not what’s happening. Very few people are dying and the ones that do are doing really reckless things.

Well. I guess you find the current number of dead bodies acceptable. I don't. And honestly, I don't care whether or not they were "following the rules". Evidently you want the righteous to prosper and the wicked to be punished. What I want is roads that are safe for everyone. A safe system. We don't have that.

DP. I don’t want anyone to be punished but there’s only so much you can do when people don’t care about their own safety.

If you think the number of cyclists who die every year is a lot just wait until you look at the homicide stats.

What an odd assumption, that people don't care about their own safety. Of course people care about their own safety. That's like saying, if you cared about your own safety, you wouldn't get into a car.

However, even if it were true, we're still nowhere near the point of having done as much as we can do.

It's also an odd assumption that this is only about people riding bikes.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/pedestrian-deaths-in-u-s-reach-highest-level-in-40-years

If you do dangerous things that require affirmative action on the part of some other person to avoid serious injury or death, it’s safe to conclude you don’t care about your own safety because you’re letting someone else who you don’t know or who could be distracted or who could be impaired determine whether you live or die.

This happens to me every time I cross a road on foot. I assure you that I do care about my own safety.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hope Kenwood wins. I don’t live there but need to drive there most weekdays and get stuck in traffic now like never before. I’m a liberal democrat and the county’s approach to roads is infuriating. Between this, Old Georgetown, and now Tuckerman, they are brazenly attempting to reshape the county roads without an actual plan of how this affects people day to day. Quite frustrating.

1. There actually are plans. Nobody just woke up one fine morning and said, You know what? Today is a great day to start repaving and restriping Old Georgetown Road!
2. When you consider "how this affects people day to day", please also include (a) people who are not driving and (b) people who were killed on those roads.

Stop the hyperbole. It’s so ridiculous and make you look silly. No one has ever been killed in a car accident or by any other means along Little Falls Parkway in the 3 decades I have lived here. There was one fatality at the intersection of Little Falls Parkway and the CCT, following which they reduced the lanes at that specific intersection and no one had died since.

So nobody has been killed on Little Falls Parkway, except for the person who was killed on Little Falls Parkway, but that's ok because nobody else has been killed on Little Falls Parkway since...

They were killed at the intersection with the trail not “along the parkway”.

They also died because they failed to heed stop signs on the trail and failed to yield crossing the road. They broke the law and unfortunately paid with their life.

We don't have instant capital punishment for people who disobey stop signs. If we did, 99% of drivers in Montgomery County would be dead. I say that as a driver.

Jumping into a pool without knowing how to swim and then drowning is not “capital punishment”. Try again.

The person who was driving and killed Ned Gaylin might have a different view of the case. I don't know about you, but when I'm driving, I don't want to kill anybody, whether they stopped or didn't stop at a stop sign. If safety improvements reduce my chances of hitting or killing somebody, I'm all for them.

There was nothing the driver could do. Gaylin pulled out in front of him. He wasn’t going that fast, and all indications were that Gaylin would survive when the ambulance took him to the hospital. I used to see Gaylin around on his bike and he never stopped. Luckily for him, all but one driver was able to stop and prevent a deadly collision. Unfortunately for him, one couldn’t. Redesigning the road was an overreaction. His death wasn’t a punishment. No one had any intent to punish. It was the outcome of his own recklessness.

That is a lot of words to obscure these facts:

1. Ned Gaylin was killed
2. Someone who was driving killed him with their car
3. The design was dangerous (and was known to be dangerous)

4. Ned Gaylin’s own reckless conduct caused the collision and his death. If he did the same thing today he’d still die. Vision Zero is a folly unless people take responsibility for their own safety and follow the rules. People can make any design deadly. Ned Gaylin is proof of that.

I don't think you understand Vision Zero. Vision Zero says that roads should be safe for everyone EVEN WHEN people DON'T follow the rules.

I do understand that. I’m saying it doesn’t work. Sorry to be vague before.

OK, but actually it does work.

Show me the best intersection you can find and I’ll find ways people can make it fatal by breaking the rules.

How about the intersection of North Tioga Street and East State Street in Ithaca, New York?

^^^but honestly your point is indefensible regardless. Maybe we can't get the number of road deaths to 0. Maybe we can only get them to 1. That's worth doing.

No it’s literally not. If risks were above unacceptable levels yes. If people following the rules are routinely dying yes. However that’s not what’s happening. Very few people are dying and the ones that do are doing really reckless things.

Well. I guess you find the current number of dead bodies acceptable. I don't. And honestly, I don't care whether or not they were "following the rules". Evidently you want the righteous to prosper and the wicked to be punished. What I want is roads that are safe for everyone. A safe system. We don't have that.

DP. I don’t want anyone to be punished but there’s only so much you can do when people don’t care about their own safety.

If you think the number of cyclists who die every year is a lot just wait until you look at the homicide stats.

What an odd assumption, that people don't care about their own safety. Of course people care about their own safety. That's like saying, if you cared about your own safety, you wouldn't get into a car.

However, even if it were true, we're still nowhere near the point of having done as much as we can do.

It's also an odd assumption that this is only about people riding bikes.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/pedestrian-deaths-in-u-s-reach-highest-level-in-40-years

If you do dangerous things that require affirmative action on the part of some other person to avoid serious injury or death, it’s safe to conclude you don’t care about your own safety because you’re letting someone else who you don’t know or who could be distracted or who could be impaired determine whether you live or die.

Anonymous wrote:I am pro-biking but it's kind of absurd to link the accident where the trail crosses Little Falls to speed bumps on the other side of Mass Ave where the trail is entirely protected, with no road access to the trail or even sidewalks just because they are both on Little Falls.

If Wisconsin Ave has a dangerous intersection where we have stop lights does that mean we are going to put speed bumps from Rockville to Tenleytown?

Those speed bumps are just annoying and dumb. If you really want to just make people slow down at least put up a speed camera.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hope Kenwood wins. I don’t live there but need to drive there most weekdays and get stuck in traffic now like never before. I’m a liberal democrat and the county’s approach to roads is infuriating. Between this, Old Georgetown, and now Tuckerman, they are brazenly attempting to reshape the county roads without an actual plan of how this affects people day to day. Quite frustrating.

1. There actually are plans. Nobody just woke up one fine morning and said, You know what? Today is a great day to start repaving and restriping Old Georgetown Road!
2. When you consider "how this affects people day to day", please also include (a) people who are not driving and (b) people who were killed on those roads.

Stop the hyperbole. It’s so ridiculous and make you look silly. No one has ever been killed in a car accident or by any other means along Little Falls Parkway in the 3 decades I have lived here. There was one fatality at the intersection of Little Falls Parkway and the CCT, following which they reduced the lanes at that specific intersection and no one had died since.

So nobody has been killed on Little Falls Parkway, except for the person who was killed on Little Falls Parkway, but that's ok because nobody else has been killed on Little Falls Parkway since...

They were killed at the intersection with the trail not “along the parkway”.

They also died because they failed to heed stop signs on the trail and failed to yield crossing the road. They broke the law and unfortunately paid with their life.

We don't have instant capital punishment for people who disobey stop signs. If we did, 99% of drivers in Montgomery County would be dead. I say that as a driver.

Jumping into a pool without knowing how to swim and then drowning is not “capital punishment”. Try again.

The person who was driving and killed Ned Gaylin might have a different view of the case. I don't know about you, but when I'm driving, I don't want to kill anybody, whether they stopped or didn't stop at a stop sign. If safety improvements reduce my chances of hitting or killing somebody, I'm all for them.

There was nothing the driver could do. Gaylin pulled out in front of him. He wasn’t going that fast, and all indications were that Gaylin would survive when the ambulance took him to the hospital. I used to see Gaylin around on his bike and he never stopped. Luckily for him, all but one driver was able to stop and prevent a deadly collision. Unfortunately for him, one couldn’t. Redesigning the road was an overreaction. His death wasn’t a punishment. No one had any intent to punish. It was the outcome of his own recklessness.

That is a lot of words to obscure these facts:

1. Ned Gaylin was killed
2. Someone who was driving killed him with their car
3. The design was dangerous (and was known to be dangerous)

4. Ned Gaylin’s own reckless conduct caused the collision and his death. If he did the same thing today he’d still die. Vision Zero is a folly unless people take responsibility for their own safety and follow the rules. People can make any design deadly. Ned Gaylin is proof of that.

I don't think you understand Vision Zero. Vision Zero says that roads should be safe for everyone EVEN WHEN people DON'T follow the rules.

I do understand that. I’m saying it doesn’t work. Sorry to be vague before.

OK, but actually it does work.

Show me the best intersection you can find and I’ll find ways people can make it fatal by breaking the rules.

How about the intersection of North Tioga Street and East State Street in Ithaca, New York?

^^^but honestly your point is indefensible regardless. Maybe we can't get the number of road deaths to 0. Maybe we can only get them to 1. That's worth doing.

No it’s literally not. If risks were above unacceptable levels yes. If people following the rules are routinely dying yes. However that’s not what’s happening. Very few people are dying and the ones that do are doing really reckless things.

Well. I guess you find the current number of dead bodies acceptable. I don't. And honestly, I don't care whether or not they were "following the rules". Evidently you want the righteous to prosper and the wicked to be punished. What I want is roads that are safe for everyone. A safe system. We don't have that.

DP. I don’t want anyone to be punished but there’s only so much you can do when people don’t care about their own safety.

If you think the number of cyclists who die every year is a lot just wait until you look at the homicide stats.

What an odd assumption, that people don't care about their own safety. Of course people care about their own safety. That's like saying, if you cared about your own safety, you wouldn't get into a car.

However, even if it were true, we're still nowhere near the point of having done as much as we can do.

It's also an odd assumption that this is only about people riding bikes.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/pedestrian-deaths-in-u-s-reach-highest-level-in-40-years

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hope Kenwood wins. I don’t live there but need to drive there most weekdays and get stuck in traffic now like never before. I’m a liberal democrat and the county’s approach to roads is infuriating. Between this, Old Georgetown, and now Tuckerman, they are brazenly attempting to reshape the county roads without an actual plan of how this affects people day to day. Quite frustrating.

1. There actually are plans. Nobody just woke up one fine morning and said, You know what? Today is a great day to start repaving and restriping Old Georgetown Road!
2. When you consider "how this affects people day to day", please also include (a) people who are not driving and (b) people who were killed on those roads.

Stop the hyperbole. It’s so ridiculous and make you look silly. No one has ever been killed in a car accident or by any other means along Little Falls Parkway in the 3 decades I have lived here. There was one fatality at the intersection of Little Falls Parkway and the CCT, following which they reduced the lanes at that specific intersection and no one had died since.

So nobody has been killed on Little Falls Parkway, except for the person who was killed on Little Falls Parkway, but that's ok because nobody else has been killed on Little Falls Parkway since...

They were killed at the intersection with the trail not “along the parkway”.

They also died because they failed to heed stop signs on the trail and failed to yield crossing the road. They broke the law and unfortunately paid with their life.

We don't have instant capital punishment for people who disobey stop signs. If we did, 99% of drivers in Montgomery County would be dead. I say that as a driver.

Jumping into a pool without knowing how to swim and then drowning is not “capital punishment”. Try again.

The person who was driving and killed Ned Gaylin might have a different view of the case. I don't know about you, but when I'm driving, I don't want to kill anybody, whether they stopped or didn't stop at a stop sign. If safety improvements reduce my chances of hitting or killing somebody, I'm all for them.

There was nothing the driver could do. Gaylin pulled out in front of him. He wasn’t going that fast, and all indications were that Gaylin would survive when the ambulance took him to the hospital. I used to see Gaylin around on his bike and he never stopped. Luckily for him, all but one driver was able to stop and prevent a deadly collision. Unfortunately for him, one couldn’t. Redesigning the road was an overreaction. His death wasn’t a punishment. No one had any intent to punish. It was the outcome of his own recklessness.

That is a lot of words to obscure these facts:

1. Ned Gaylin was killed
2. Someone who was driving killed him with their car
3. The design was dangerous (and was known to be dangerous)

4. Ned Gaylin’s own reckless conduct caused the collision and his death. If he did the same thing today he’d still die. Vision Zero is a folly unless people take responsibility for their own safety and follow the rules. People can make any design deadly. Ned Gaylin is proof of that.

I don't think you understand Vision Zero. Vision Zero says that roads should be safe for everyone EVEN WHEN people DON'T follow the rules.

I do understand that. I’m saying it doesn’t work. Sorry to be vague before.

OK, but actually it does work.

Show me the best intersection you can find and I’ll find ways people can make it fatal by breaking the rules.

How about the intersection of North Tioga Street and East State Street in Ithaca, New York?

^^^but honestly your point is indefensible regardless. Maybe we can't get the number of road deaths to 0. Maybe we can only get them to 1. That's worth doing.

No it’s literally not. If risks were above unacceptable levels yes. If people following the rules are routinely dying yes. However that’s not what’s happening. Very few people are dying and the ones that do are doing really reckless things.

Well. I guess you find the current number of dead bodies acceptable. I don't. And honestly, I don't care whether or not they were "following the rules". Evidently you want the righteous to prosper and the wicked to be punished. What I want is roads that are safe for everyone. A safe system. We don't have that.

What’s the acceptable number of people to die every year from drowning in bathtubs? What about falling off ladders?

What number of people do you find acceptable to die every year from car crashes? It was about 43,000 people in 2021. It's the leading cause of death in many age groups. Our car crash death rate is much higher than every other wealthy country. Do you think that's acceptable? I don't. Do you think we can change it? I do.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/27/upshot/road-deaths-pedestrians-cyclists.html

First of all, the vast majority of people who die in auto accidents are drivers and passengers in cars. Very, very few pedestrians and cyclists. Second, those numbers are absolutely dwarfed by the numbers of people who die every year from poisoning. If you want to make it a numbers game, go focus on that because the numbers of people dying from poisioning are increasing dramatically.
https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/animated-leading-causes.html

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hope Kenwood wins. I don’t live there but need to drive there most weekdays and get stuck in traffic now like never before. I’m a liberal democrat and the county’s approach to roads is infuriating. Between this, Old Georgetown, and now Tuckerman, they are brazenly attempting to reshape the county roads without an actual plan of how this affects people day to day. Quite frustrating.

1. There actually are plans. Nobody just woke up one fine morning and said, You know what? Today is a great day to start repaving and restriping Old Georgetown Road!
2. When you consider "how this affects people day to day", please also include (a) people who are not driving and (b) people who were killed on those roads.

Stop the hyperbole. It’s so ridiculous and make you look silly. No one has ever been killed in a car accident or by any other means along Little Falls Parkway in the 3 decades I have lived here. There was one fatality at the intersection of Little Falls Parkway and the CCT, following which they reduced the lanes at that specific intersection and no one had died since.

So nobody has been killed on Little Falls Parkway, except for the person who was killed on Little Falls Parkway, but that's ok because nobody else has been killed on Little Falls Parkway since...

They were killed at the intersection with the trail not “along the parkway”.

They also died because they failed to heed stop signs on the trail and failed to yield crossing the road. They broke the law and unfortunately paid with their life.

We don't have instant capital punishment for people who disobey stop signs. If we did, 99% of drivers in Montgomery County would be dead. I say that as a driver.

Jumping into a pool without knowing how to swim and then drowning is not “capital punishment”. Try again.

The person who was driving and killed Ned Gaylin might have a different view of the case. I don't know about you, but when I'm driving, I don't want to kill anybody, whether they stopped or didn't stop at a stop sign. If safety improvements reduce my chances of hitting or killing somebody, I'm all for them.

There was nothing the driver could do. Gaylin pulled out in front of him. He wasn’t going that fast, and all indications were that Gaylin would survive when the ambulance took him to the hospital. I used to see Gaylin around on his bike and he never stopped. Luckily for him, all but one driver was able to stop and prevent a deadly collision. Unfortunately for him, one couldn’t. Redesigning the road was an overreaction. His death wasn’t a punishment. No one had any intent to punish. It was the outcome of his own recklessness.

That is a lot of words to obscure these facts:

1. Ned Gaylin was killed
2. Someone who was driving killed him with their car
3. The design was dangerous (and was known to be dangerous)

4. Ned Gaylin’s own reckless conduct caused the collision and his death. If he did the same thing today he’d still die. Vision Zero is a folly unless people take responsibility for their own safety and follow the rules. People can make any design deadly. Ned Gaylin is proof of that.

I don't think you understand Vision Zero. Vision Zero says that roads should be safe for everyone EVEN WHEN people DON'T follow the rules.

I do understand that. I’m saying it doesn’t work. Sorry to be vague before.

OK, but actually it does work.

Show me the best intersection you can find and I’ll find ways people can make it fatal by breaking the rules.

How about the intersection of North Tioga Street and East State Street in Ithaca, New York?

^^^but honestly your point is indefensible regardless. Maybe we can't get the number of road deaths to 0. Maybe we can only get them to 1. That's worth doing.

No it’s literally not. If risks were above unacceptable levels yes. If people following the rules are routinely dying yes. However that’s not what’s happening. Very few people are dying and the ones that do are doing really reckless things.

Well. I guess you find the current number of dead bodies acceptable. I don't. And honestly, I don't care whether or not they were "following the rules". Evidently you want the righteous to prosper and the wicked to be punished. What I want is roads that are safe for everyone. A safe system. We don't have that.

What’s the acceptable number of people to die every year from drowning in bathtubs? What about falling off ladders?

What number of people do you find acceptable to die every year from car crashes? It was about 43,000 people in 2021. It's the leading cause of death in many age groups. Our car crash death rate is much higher than every other wealthy country. Do you think that's acceptable? I don't. Do you think we can change it? I do.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/27/upshot/road-deaths-pedestrians-cyclists.html