Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:SAT scores do not measure intelligence or college readiness
I know of some very bright kids who had to go to work during high school years to help support their parents/family
Every kid doesn’t have full support, or safe stable home for the 18 years of life

Despite that some of those have managed to do well later on in life

Learning doesn’t end when you graduate. I am in IT and am constantly studying and acquiring new skills
College was just a foundation that opens the door to the profession, thereafter you have the skills to open a book and self teach yourself what you need to know

While they do not “measure” IQ, as they are not an intelligence test per se, SAT scores are nonetheless highly correlated with IQ. Let’s not imply otherwise.

But also tied with SES and the accumulated educational supports over a lifetime that come with higher SES.

Of course — and so is IQ.

SAT is an achievement test. It test a very narrow range of facts, concepts and skills. The more you are exposed, taught and practice these things the better one does on the test. With a little work one could write a program that would get a prefect on the SATs every time.

Not IQ. College Board agrees with me. It correlates to having a good grounding in reading skills and algebra. So (mostly affluent) kids from better schools will have years and years of cumulative advantage that can’t be overcome in a few weeks prep course. It’s not terribly helpful in comparing the IQs of a big city, $50,000/year private school lifer with a kid from public school in Appalachia. If you compare 2 kids from the same school, the SAT *might* measure different abilities or it might just favor the one who does well on multiple choice tests. The other student might in fact do better on open ended exams (which are more like you get in college and more like life). I’m not saying the SAT/ACT should be eliminated entirely. I was respond to the PP who said they were more important than grades. I don’t think so. I actually do think they can help contextualize grades. So the 1000 scorer with a 4.0 would raise questions that needed answers to decide if they really can hack it. But given the same GPA the difference between a 1400 and 1600 is negligible and shouldn’t really matter at all. The can both likely handle the work at any university. So we need stop creating environments where kids feel compelled to retake when they have a 1540 or whatever. Putting that much effort into a standardized tests detracts from learning NEW or deeper material in school. Which is really the point, after all.

Test optional is a disastrous decision with disastrous consequences
There is so much that goes into grades besides intelligence and hard work, sometimes instead of them!
And, what else are they going to look at?

Anonymous wrote:It helps your admissions chances if you are an under-represented minority.

How is that controversial? Everyone knows that!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only things colleges should look at are grades, test scores, And maybe an open ended question exam of some sorts. The brightest should get into the best colleges, and that’s it.
The rest can go to less rigorous ones.

Best colleges will end up 70% Asian 20% white 3% Hispanic 2% black and 5% other like TJ high school and screams of rage about lack of racial equity will ensue.

NP - I am fine with a college being 70%+ Asian if those are the individuals who are most deserving to be there

Agree.

Yes

Part of what makes an elite school elite (like Princeton, Yale, Harvard, Stanford, etc.) is who your classmates are and the connections you make through roommates, dinner club, etc. You are attending school with people whose parents or grandparents were president (Roosevelt, Kennedy, Bush, Obama, Biden) or billionaire CEOs of companies or entertainment megastars. These are the connections that help make the school elite. If you take away the connected, high profile families and fill the school with kids just based on a test score and grades, the college becomes far less prestigious. I feel like people that want entrance to these schools to be test and GPA only are from other countries that have this sort of university entrance system.

But other countries still survive somehow.. wven with that system. Isn’t it more fair too?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only things colleges should look at are grades, test scores, And maybe an open ended question exam of some sorts. The brightest should get into the best colleges, and that’s it.
The rest can go to less rigorous ones.

Best colleges will end up 70% Asian 20% white 3% Hispanic 2% black and 5% other like TJ high school and screams of rage about lack of racial equity will ensue.

It will all work itself out
I have a set of unpopular opinions about the workplace as well

You are attending school with people whose parents or grandparents were president (Roosevelt, Kennedy, Bush, Obama, Biden) or billionaire CEOs of companies or entertainment megastars. These are the connections that help make the school elite.

If you are middle class Joe Schmo from suburbia then these scions of wealth and the political elite are not going to be your best buddy. They associate with each other not with nobodies. Sorry.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:SAT scores do not measure intelligence or college readiness
I know of some very bright kids who had to go to work during high school years to help support their parents/family
Every kid doesn’t have full support, or safe stable home for the 18 years of life

Despite that some of those have managed to do well later on in life

Learning doesn’t end when you graduate. I am in IT and am constantly studying and acquiring new skills
College was just a foundation that opens the door to the profession, thereafter you have the skills to open a book and self teach yourself what you need to know

While they do not “measure” IQ, as they are not an intelligence test per se, SAT scores are nonetheless highly correlated with IQ. Let’s not imply otherwise.

But also tied with SES and the accumulated educational supports over a lifetime that come with higher SES.

Of course — and so is IQ.

SAT is an achievement test. It test a very narrow range of facts, concepts and skills. The more you are exposed, taught and practice these things the better one does on the test. With a little work one could write a program that would get a prefect on the SATs every time.

I was a test prep tutor and you can only get marginal improvement from test prep. You can’t turn a 1000 into a 1600. Because, as the PP said, it correlates with IQ that you can’t change.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only things colleges should look at are grades, test scores, And maybe an open ended question exam of some sorts. The brightest should get into the best colleges, and that’s it.
The rest can go to less rigorous ones.

Best colleges will end up 70% Asian 20% white 3% Hispanic 2% black and 5% other like TJ high school and screams of rage about lack of racial equity will ensue.

NP - I am fine with a college being 70%+ Asian if those are the individuals who are most deserving to be there

Agree.

Yes

Part of what makes an elite school elite (like Princeton, Yale, Harvard, Stanford, etc.) is who your classmates are and the connections you make through roommates, dinner club, etc. You are attending school with people whose parents or grandparents were president (Roosevelt, Kennedy, Bush, Obama, Biden) or billionaire CEOs of companies or entertainment megastars. These are the connections that help make the school elite. If you take away the connected, high profile families and fill the school with kids just based on a test score and grades, the college becomes far less prestigious. I feel like people that want entrance to these schools to be test and GPA only are from other countries that have this sort of university entrance system.

I hear this argument a lot, but there's no guarantee that your child will be besties with the Obama sisters or a Kennedy. One of my friends went to school with the Biden grandchildren and oohs and ahhs about having been in their presence, but doesn't know them at all.

We need to end affirmative action and legacy admits.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:College might be your only chance to study Gregorian chant or read Tolstoy or ask yourself whether you believe in utilitarianism. Go for it. Smart, realistic, self-aware people with a good work ethic and strong critical thinking, research, and writing skills will figure out a way to make enough money -- and maybe even have some fun doing it.

Strongly agree with this sentiment, but did want to point out that there is a local high school where nearly all students study each of these: SAAS.

+1 SAAS is basically a SLAC. I feel like my son already got a degree in liberal arts there, and now he is off to big state school to major in CS

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only things colleges should look at are grades, test scores, And maybe an open ended question exam of some sorts. The brightest should get into the best colleges, and that’s it.
The rest can go to less rigorous ones.

Best colleges will end up 70% Asian 20% white 3% Hispanic 2% black and 5% other like TJ high school and screams of rage about lack of racial equity will ensue.

NP - I am fine with a college being 70%+ Asian if those are the individuals who are most deserving to be there

Agree.

Yes

Part of what makes an elite school elite (like Princeton, Yale, Harvard, Stanford, etc.) is who your classmates are and the connections you make through roommates, dinner club, etc. You are attending school with people whose parents or grandparents were president (Roosevelt, Kennedy, Bush, Obama, Biden) or billionaire CEOs of companies or entertainment megastars. These are the connections that help make the school elite. If you take away the connected, high profile families and fill the school with kids just based on a test score and grades, the college becomes far less prestigious. I feel like people that want entrance to these schools to be test and GPA only are from other countries that have this sort of university entrance system.

Your mean one where college admissions are not based in large part on university finances, such as (a) legacy, (b) big donor/celebrity, (c) revenue sports, etc? Imagine that. While I’m no fan of SAT/ACT (and have said so on this thread), these things are even less to do with the core mission of the university. I for one would be happier if these were not factored in at all. And I say this as someone who is watching a college FB game right now. These D1 guys are really semi-pro.

It’s possible you don’t understand what the core mission of a college/university here is. It is not solely academics.

It’s posible I do understand that. I actually agree it shouldn’t be purely academics. There are many, many world class universities around the world that have core missions too, not all of which are purely academic. But only in the US is it pervasive that the core mission include things like legacy admits, recruited athletes that act as minor leagues to professional leagues, and kowtowing to wealthy donors. These actually detract from the mission of universities in the name of the fiscal arms race among American colleges. I have no problem with club sports. Fitness and healthy rivalries make it more fun. But the tail wags the dog too much of the time when it comes to sports and colleges.

The mission is actually to educate and guide young people so that they can become leaders in many different segments of society. Much about leadership is learned outside the classroom and from interacting with others.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:SAT scores do not measure intelligence or college readiness
I know of some very bright kids who had to go to work during high school years to help support their parents/family
Every kid doesn’t have full support, or safe stable home for the 18 years of life

Despite that some of those have managed to do well later on in life

Learning doesn’t end when you graduate. I am in IT and am constantly studying and acquiring new skills
College was just a foundation that opens the door to the profession, thereafter you have the skills to open a book and self teach yourself what you need to know

While they do not “measure” IQ, as they are not an intelligence test per se, SAT scores are nonetheless highly correlated with IQ. Let’s not imply otherwise.

But also tied with SES and the accumulated educational supports over a lifetime that come with higher SES.

Of course — and so is IQ.

SAT is an achievement test. It test a very narrow range of facts, concepts and skills. The more you are exposed, taught and practice these things the better one does on the test. With a little work one could write a program that would get a prefect on the SATs every time.

It helps your admissions chances if you are an under-represented minority.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only things colleges should look at are grades, test scores, And maybe an open ended question exam of some sorts. The brightest should get into the best colleges, and that’s it.
The rest can go to less rigorous ones.

Best colleges will end up 70% Asian 20% white 3% Hispanic 2% black and 5% other like TJ high school and screams of rage about lack of racial equity will ensue.

NP - I am fine with a college being 70%+ Asian if those are the individuals who are most deserving to be there

Agree.

Yes

Part of what makes an elite school elite (like Princeton, Yale, Harvard, Stanford, etc.) is who your classmates are and the connections you make through roommates, dinner club, etc. You are attending school with people whose parents or grandparents were president (Roosevelt, Kennedy, Bush, Obama, Biden) or billionaire CEOs of companies or entertainment megastars. These are the connections that help make the school elite. If you take away the connected, high profile families and fill the school with kids just based on a test score and grades, the college becomes far less prestigious. I feel like people that want entrance to these schools to be test and GPA only are from other countries that have this sort of university entrance system.

Your mean one where college admissions are not based in large part on university finances, such as (a) legacy, (b) big donor/celebrity, (c) revenue sports, etc? Imagine that. While I’m no fan of SAT/ACT (and have said so on this thread), these things are even less to do with the core mission of the university. I for one would be happier if these were not factored in at all. And I say this as someone who is watching a college FB game right now. These D1 guys are really semi-pro.

It’s possible you don’t understand what the core mission of a college/university here is. It is not solely academics.

It’s posible I do understand that. I actually agree it shouldn’t be purely academics. There are many, many world class universities around the world that have core missions too, not all of which are purely academic. But only in the US is it pervasive that the core mission include things like legacy admits, recruited athletes that act as minor leagues to professional leagues, and kowtowing to wealthy donors. These actually detract from the mission of universities in the name of the fiscal arms race among American colleges. I have no problem with club sports. Fitness and healthy rivalries make it more fun. But the tail wags the dog too much of the time when it comes to sports and colleges.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only things colleges should look at are grades, test scores, And maybe an open ended question exam of some sorts. The brightest should get into the best colleges, and that’s it.
The rest can go to less rigorous ones.

Best colleges will end up 70% Asian 20% white 3% Hispanic 2% black and 5% other like TJ high school and screams of rage about lack of racial equity will ensue.

NP - I am fine with a college being 70%+ Asian if those are the individuals who are most deserving to be there

Agree.

Yes

Part of what makes an elite school elite (like Princeton, Yale, Harvard, Stanford, etc.) is who your classmates are and the connections you make through roommates, dinner club, etc. You are attending school with people whose parents or grandparents were president (Roosevelt, Kennedy, Bush, Obama, Biden) or billionaire CEOs of companies or entertainment megastars. These are the connections that help make the school elite. If you take away the connected, high profile families and fill the school with kids just based on a test score and grades, the college becomes far less prestigious. I feel like people that want entrance to these schools to be test and GPA only are from other countries that have this sort of university entrance system.

Your mean one where college admissions are not based in large part on university finances, such as (a) legacy, (b) big donor/celebrity, (c) revenue sports, etc? Imagine that. While I’m no fan of SAT/ACT (and have said so on this thread), these things are even less to do with the core mission of the university. I for one would be happier if these were not factored in at all. And I say this as someone who is watching a college FB game right now. These D1 guys are really semi-pro.

It’s possible you don’t understand what the core mission of a college/university here is. It is not solely academics.