Anonymous wrote:You’re not going to get into a top grad program without top grades. However, if being a prof is the goal, you can get into a grad program somewhere, and teach somewhere, and apply out once you have proven yourself and have solid research under your belt that would be attractive to top universities.

Nope.

That's what happens to a lot of graduates of "good" programs. You rarely, if ever, "move up" and do research that is good enough to teach at a higher ranking school- unless you are a genius who grew up poor.

It's more likely you would teach at community college (which is fine!) Or travel from college to college on temporary contracts for a year or two at each place.

There is a baby bust getting ready to take place, you really don't want to get into higher education unless you already excel.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With bad grades in college, if you do well in grad school? If yes, how bad can they be before your chances are significantly lower than a student with higher grades?

By the way, by "highly-ranked," I don't mean to look down on schools that aren't. Many schools provide a great education. My understanding is that the highly-ranked schools are able to provide better job security and pay higher salaries and benefits.

Thanks in advance!

How do you expect to get into a decent grad school with bad grades?

This.

Anonymous wrote:You’re not going to get into a top grad program without top grades. However, if being a prof is the goal, you can get into a grad program somewhere, and teach somewhere, and apply out once you have proven yourself and have solid research under your belt that would be attractive to top universities.

Possibly, or you might become an adjunct, teaching for pennies at three or four different institutions at a time without a long-term contract, without the necessary time to do research.

I'm a tenured professor at an elite university. As others have said, a poor undergraduate record is highly likely to hurt your chances of getting into a top PhD program. If you do manage to get into one, your undergraduate grades will probably no longer matter. You will, however, have to excel in the PhD program to have any chance of getting a tenure-line job. Even then, the chances aren't great, especially if you are in a field where there are no other job paths for PhDs or where there's not much undergraduate demand. It make a difference whether you're talking about a PhD in comparative literature or in computer science. There's a lot of luck involved with landing a good academic job and you have to be prepared to move anywhere in the country.

You should also keep in mind that higher ed is in a crisis and it's only going to get worse over the next decade or two. Tenure-line jobs are becoming harder and harder to find. When tenured faculty retire, they are now often replaced by non-tenure-line faculty or adjuncts, even at elite universities. External funding, which is absolutely essential in the sciences, is extremely hard to get. Publishers are struggling. Academic life is not what people outside of academia often imagine it to be. If you pursue it, do so with your eyes wide open.

Anonymous wrote:You’re not going to get into a top grad program without top grades. However, if being a prof is the goal, you can get into a grad program somewhere, and teach somewhere, and apply out once you have proven yourself and have solid research under your belt that would be attractive to top universities.

+1 I recommend doing non degree coursework with the goal of showing you can earn top recs and get a glowing review or two. Without good recs unlikely you’ll be admitted to a decent grad program.

You’re not going to get into a top grad program without top grades. However, if being a prof is the goal, you can get into a grad program somewhere, and teach somewhere, and apply out once you have proven yourself and have solid research under your belt that would be attractive to top universities.

Anonymous wrote:We agree. I did misread your original post, sorry.

No problem — I thought you might have had a different experience/vantage point, which is why I asked (and laid out mine)!

We agree. I did misread your original post, sorry.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FWIW, doing well in grad school is generally more about the quality and quantity of research and about your advisor being willing to go to bat for you (and having a good rep within the field) than about grades or coursework.

Disagree. Grades are very important. Most STEM programs fund their doctoral students and do not want to waste that money on a kid who will not complete the program (which MANY doctoral students do not).

Not sure whether you misread what I wrote (doing well IN grad school vs getting into grad school) or whether we actually disagree. And if we disagree, I wonder why. My info is based on my own experience getting a social science PhD (decades ago) and my DC’s current experience as a PhD student in a STEM field. We both had excellent undergrad GPAs from elite colleges and went to highly-ranked Departments for our PhDs and were offered guaranteed full-funding for 4 -5 years when we were admitted. I’ve also been involved in PhD admissions and advised PhD dissertations as a jr faculty member at a t20 university. In all cases, PhD coursework was graded on a very truncated scale (basically A to B+) and courses largely served to introduce grad students and faculty to each other and enable grad students to establish a relationship with a dissertation advisor and develop a topic. When I was a (non-STEM) grad student, it was interesting to note that being an excellent student (i.e. knowing how to get top grades in coursework) was no guarantee of research success. Basically, excellent students are good at recognizing and following/mastering other peoples’ intellectual agendas. Doing cutting-edge research (which, in theory, is what it takes to get/keep the kind of job OP aspires to) requires you to forge a new path of your own (and convince others in the field that the work you are doing is innovative/important/transformative). Very different skillsets.

not happening.

Anonymous wrote:My peers at a top-ranked grad school for my field tended to have been very successful in college. Without good grades in college, I'm guessing you'd need to have pretty amazing recommendations and a very clear sense of purpose in order to get into a competitive graduate program.

And then there's getting a job at a highly ranked college. In my field, that's unattainable for all but a few, even among those with top grades in college and a Ph.D. from an excellent program.

Also, OP, the fact that you're asking not just about getting into grad school but employment afterwards at a top college suggests that you have a distorted perspective about this process. There are plenty of good jobs at places that are not highly ranked for example. But if somehow becoming a prof at a highly-ranked school is the main thing that matters for you, maybe grad school is not really for you. Focus on getting into a good grad school. Then find an adviser who can mentor you and show you the ropes. Then worry about where you get a job.

I say this because I didn't have great grades in undergrad but I got accepted into an interdisciplinary Social Science program - which was my first mistake, because most jobs are offered through standard fields and my interdisciplinary degree was a mystery to some places. But the big mistake I made was I chose an adviser who didn't know how to mentor me in the career norms I needed to address for the job market I was facing. I made a lot of mistakes professionally that I wouldn't have if I had chosen an adviser who had better knowledge about the job market. But hey that's all in the past.

All this is just to say that graduate school and the professionalization that occurs there is a long process. You need to embrace it to get a job in this job market. But if you don't want to start without a guarantee you'll get a top job, maybe this is not the field for you. Good luck with your decision!

Anonymous wrote:FWIW, doing well in grad school is generally more about the quality and quantity of research and about your advisor being willing to go to bat for you (and having a good rep within the field) than about grades or coursework.

Disagree. Grades are very important. Most STEM programs fund their doctoral students and do not want to waste that money on a kid who will not complete the program (which MANY doctoral students do not).

Anonymous wrote:Even harder to get tenure than to get a tenure-track job at a highly ranked schools.

Definitely true.

Someone hiring a faculty member does not know or consider your grades as an undergrad but they will see where you went to grad school and that is very much impacted by your undergrad grades.

Also, some big name schools actually pay less and treat their faculty worse...because they can still attract applicants who just want the name on their CV. Just as mid-tier schools need to give merit aid to attract strong students, some second-tier colleges need to do the same for faculty.

Last but not least, if you kid is in science, they will have the pressure of bringing in a LARGE percentage of their own salary for their whole career (could be more than 80+), as well as the salary and benefits of those who work for them. It is not an easy life.

It sounds like you’re talking about PhD programs. I would think this depends on the field and whether you need funding. If you’re in the sciences and want to be funded, good luck. If you can afford to fund yourself, well that’s a lot easier.