Anonymous
Post 06/07/2021 08:12     Subject: AOPS - why didn't it work for you?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:AOPS isn't for most kids. They spend 75% of their time focusing on esoteric contest math tricks while skipping over basic skills.


+1 You nailed it. I'm a math teacher btw.


They are not skipping anything, they expect that kids to already know the basic skills. As many posters have said, it is not a program to build foundational skills. There is an expectation that the kids will have those skills.

Students at our location are evaluated by one of the Teachers or Administrators. DS was given a series of questions, he provided an answer and the evaluator asked him how he had solved the problem. DS would give his explanation and they would discuss different methods for solving the same problem. The problems were on grade level and meant to make sure that he had the basics down. The explanation insured that he understood the principles behind the basics.

I have been told by others that AoPS has no problem with recommending that a 3rd grader take the 2nd grade math because of where they were with their skills or holding kids back the following years because there was concern that the kid did not have a firm enough grasp of the material. We are waiting on the Teachers evaluation from this year.

There are programs that are great for kids who need to build a foundation, that is not AoPS.

Anonymous
Post 06/06/2021 11:15     Subject: AOPS - why didn't it work for you?
Anonymous wrote:AOPS isn't for most kids. They spend 75% of their time focusing on esoteric contest math tricks while skipping over basic skills.


+1 You nailed it. I'm a math teacher btw.
Anonymous
Post 06/04/2021 16:23     Subject: AOPS - why didn't it work for you?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:AoPS is asking the kids to think independently about creative ways to solve problems using all the prior skills they may or may not have learned. For example, in pre algebra, there are problems where you have to realize that you can substitute unknown variables for other unknown variables and get an answer that way. Your child has to be creative enough to take risks and think. Many of the questions have multiple solutions but many also incorporate strategies that are not taught. My DC struggles because she wants rules and is afraid to be creative. She will say, but we never learned that! And my answer is, that is the point. To think with logic, using what you know. Net: it is not something to MAKE your child do to get ahead or catch up. And yes, there are questions that took me hours to figure out!

most kids struggle with the basics so this isn't all that helpful when they can't add or subtract


The OP was asking why AoPS did not work for some kids. Part of the answer is that AoPS works for kids who have strong fundamentals and enjoy "playing" with math. AoPS would not be a good program for a kid who is struggling with the basics. It sounds like RSM is a more flexible program because it has different levels for each grade and would be able to focus on the basics for kids who need the basics.

I don't believe that anyone in this topic has said that AoPS is a good fit for all kids but for a specific subset of kids. Listening to my sons sessions, he is in 3rd grade, it is clear that there were kids who understood the concepts with little effort and were enjoying the various puzzles and strategies. There were other kids who needed some time to talk to the Teacher when class was done to make sure that they were understanding the concepts. I could very easily see how many kids would not do well in the program but it was a great fit for him.

If a parent is looking for a math program to build basic skills they should probably be looking at Mathnasium, Kumon, Sylvan, or RSM. If parents are looking for a math program that is focused more on creative problem solving, it sounds like AoPS and the high level RSM sections are a good fit.


AoPS is great but really focuses on techniques that are largely frustrating for the majority of children. It sets them up for failure. I woulnd't recommend it for all but a few who express a serious interest in math. This is definitely not a program to push you kid into.


All of the postings here about it have been for kids who need more/additional, not foundation. We were considering it but ended up choose a private school summer program instead to prep for next year.
Anonymous
Post 06/04/2021 16:20     Subject: AOPS - why didn't it work for you?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:AoPS is asking the kids to think independently about creative ways to solve problems using all the prior skills they may or may not have learned. For example, in pre algebra, there are problems where you have to realize that you can substitute unknown variables for other unknown variables and get an answer that way. Your child has to be creative enough to take risks and think. Many of the questions have multiple solutions but many also incorporate strategies that are not taught. My DC struggles because she wants rules and is afraid to be creative. She will say, but we never learned that! And my answer is, that is the point. To think with logic, using what you know. Net: it is not something to MAKE your child do to get ahead or catch up. And yes, there are questions that took me hours to figure out!

most kids struggle with the basics so this isn't all that helpful when they can't add or subtract


Then, you get some workbooks or do something like Kumon. The discussion isn't about kids who are struggling but usually AOPS is used for kids to get ahead or in more dept than some schools/teachers provide.
Anonymous
Post 06/04/2021 15:39     Subject: AOPS - why didn't it work for you?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
That being said, there are reasons why AoPS might not work even for kids who are very bright at math.

Whoops. Forgot one:
4. Kids really do need to put in the work to be successful. Kids who only show up to class and do the minimal required homework problems are unlikely to reach the level of understanding that they need. The kids are supposed to read the lessons in the textbook before each class, attend class, ask on the message board or ask the teacher if they don't understand something, do lots of alcumus problems in the lesson topic, and then spend sufficient time on the homework. Many kids try to shortcut the process.


I think that it would be helpful to discuss the age for some of these issues. DS is 8 and did not need to do much more then attend the class and do the homework assigned. I don't think he did any advanced reading and we did not insist that he do he extra problems out of the workbook or anything like that. It sounds like you are talking about older kids in Algebra and the like. I would fully understand that those classes require more work then my third grader had to put into his class this past year.


My 10-year-old is currently taking 7B Contest Algebra from AoPS. He really enjoys it. He almost never cracks the book and gets what he needs from the classes. He does do about half the homework each week. So yes they could do more but again they're just 10 so I don't really want to push it, and despite their lack of dedication they still managed to come in 1st on contest day so they must be doing something right.
Anonymous
Post 06/04/2021 15:00     Subject: AOPS - why didn't it work for you?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
That being said, there are reasons why AoPS might not work even for kids who are very bright at math.

Whoops. Forgot one:
4. Kids really do need to put in the work to be successful. Kids who only show up to class and do the minimal required homework problems are unlikely to reach the level of understanding that they need. The kids are supposed to read the lessons in the textbook before each class, attend class, ask on the message board or ask the teacher if they don't understand something, do lots of alcumus problems in the lesson topic, and then spend sufficient time on the homework. Many kids try to shortcut the process.


I think that it would be helpful to discuss the age for some of these issues. DS is 8 and did not need to do much more then attend the class and do the homework assigned. I don't think he did any advanced reading and we did not insist that he do he extra problems out of the workbook or anything like that. It sounds like you are talking about older kids in Algebra and the like. I would fully understand that those classes require more work then my third grader had to put into his class this past year.
Anonymous
Post 06/04/2021 14:46     Subject: AOPS - why didn't it work for you?
Anonymous wrote:
That being said, there are reasons why AoPS might not work even for kids who are very bright at math.

Whoops. Forgot one:
4. Kids really do need to put in the work to be successful. Kids who only show up to class and do the minimal required homework problems are unlikely to reach the level of understanding that they need. The kids are supposed to read the lessons in the textbook before each class, attend class, ask on the message board or ask the teacher if they don't understand something, do lots of alcumus problems in the lesson topic, and then spend sufficient time on the homework. Many kids try to shortcut the process.
Anonymous
Post 06/04/2021 14:40     Subject: AOPS - why didn't it work for you?
Anonymous wrote:

AoPS is great but really focuses on techniques that are largely frustrating for the majority of children. It sets them up for failure. I woulnd't recommend it for all but a few who express a serious interest in math. This is definitely not a program to push you kid into.


Could you elaborate on these "techniques that are largely frustrating for the majority of children?"

My 95th-ish percentile DD had no problems with the AoPS classes, and they're one of the reasons she has excelled at her current, very rigorous school.

That being said, there are reasons why AoPS might not work even for kids who are very bright at math.
1. AoPS has a philosophy of discouraging perfectionism. The homework sets and tests are set up so that kids generally will not get 90% or higher correct. An "A" equivalent grade would be around a 75%. Some kids can't deal with that, especially if they're used to getting everything correct in their regular schools.

2. The most successful normal, bright kids in AoPS are the ones who start in Beast Academy and work their way up. Kids who try to jump in at Algebra after doing regular school math for years are likely to lack the problem solving skills needed.

3. The kids don't need to love math, but they need to at least like it enough that they don't resent spending their free time doing even more math. Some parents force their kids to take AoPS classes who pretty strongly don't want to be taking any supplemental math.
Anonymous
Post 06/04/2021 13:02     Subject: AOPS - why didn't it work for you?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:AoPS is asking the kids to think independently about creative ways to solve problems using all the prior skills they may or may not have learned. For example, in pre algebra, there are problems where you have to realize that you can substitute unknown variables for other unknown variables and get an answer that way. Your child has to be creative enough to take risks and think. Many of the questions have multiple solutions but many also incorporate strategies that are not taught. My DC struggles because she wants rules and is afraid to be creative. She will say, but we never learned that! And my answer is, that is the point. To think with logic, using what you know. Net: it is not something to MAKE your child do to get ahead or catch up. And yes, there are questions that took me hours to figure out!

most kids struggle with the basics so this isn't all that helpful when they can't add or subtract


The OP was asking why AoPS did not work for some kids. Part of the answer is that AoPS works for kids who have strong fundamentals and enjoy "playing" with math. AoPS would not be a good program for a kid who is struggling with the basics. It sounds like RSM is a more flexible program because it has different levels for each grade and would be able to focus on the basics for kids who need the basics.

I don't believe that anyone in this topic has said that AoPS is a good fit for all kids but for a specific subset of kids. Listening to my sons sessions, he is in 3rd grade, it is clear that there were kids who understood the concepts with little effort and were enjoying the various puzzles and strategies. There were other kids who needed some time to talk to the Teacher when class was done to make sure that they were understanding the concepts. I could very easily see how many kids would not do well in the program but it was a great fit for him.

If a parent is looking for a math program to build basic skills they should probably be looking at Mathnasium, Kumon, Sylvan, or RSM. If parents are looking for a math program that is focused more on creative problem solving, it sounds like AoPS and the high level RSM sections are a good fit.


AoPS is great but really focuses on techniques that are largely frustrating for the majority of children. It sets them up for failure. I woulnd't recommend it for all but a few who express a serious interest in math. This is definitely not a program to push you kid into.
Anonymous
Post 06/04/2021 12:04     Subject: AOPS - why didn't it work for you?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:AoPS is asking the kids to think independently about creative ways to solve problems using all the prior skills they may or may not have learned. For example, in pre algebra, there are problems where you have to realize that you can substitute unknown variables for other unknown variables and get an answer that way. Your child has to be creative enough to take risks and think. Many of the questions have multiple solutions but many also incorporate strategies that are not taught. My DC struggles because she wants rules and is afraid to be creative. She will say, but we never learned that! And my answer is, that is the point. To think with logic, using what you know. Net: it is not something to MAKE your child do to get ahead or catch up. And yes, there are questions that took me hours to figure out!

most kids struggle with the basics so this isn't all that helpful when they can't add or subtract


The OP was asking why AoPS did not work for some kids. Part of the answer is that AoPS works for kids who have strong fundamentals and enjoy "playing" with math. AoPS would not be a good program for a kid who is struggling with the basics. It sounds like RSM is a more flexible program because it has different levels for each grade and would be able to focus on the basics for kids who need the basics.

I don't believe that anyone in this topic has said that AoPS is a good fit for all kids but for a specific subset of kids. Listening to my sons sessions, he is in 3rd grade, it is clear that there were kids who understood the concepts with little effort and were enjoying the various puzzles and strategies. There were other kids who needed some time to talk to the Teacher when class was done to make sure that they were understanding the concepts. I could very easily see how many kids would not do well in the program but it was a great fit for him.

If a parent is looking for a math program to build basic skills they should probably be looking at Mathnasium, Kumon, Sylvan, or RSM. If parents are looking for a math program that is focused more on creative problem solving, it sounds like AoPS and the high level RSM sections are a good fit.
Anonymous
Post 06/04/2021 11:10     Subject: AOPS - why didn't it work for you?
Anonymous wrote:AoPS is asking the kids to think independently about creative ways to solve problems using all the prior skills they may or may not have learned. For example, in pre algebra, there are problems where you have to realize that you can substitute unknown variables for other unknown variables and get an answer that way. Your child has to be creative enough to take risks and think. Many of the questions have multiple solutions but many also incorporate strategies that are not taught. My DC struggles because she wants rules and is afraid to be creative. She will say, but we never learned that! And my answer is, that is the point. To think with logic, using what you know. Net: it is not something to MAKE your child do to get ahead or catch up. And yes, there are questions that took me hours to figure out!

most kids struggle with the basics so this isn't all that helpful when they can't add or subtract
Anonymous
Post 06/04/2021 10:46     Subject: AOPS - why didn't it work for you?
AoPS is asking the kids to think independently about creative ways to solve problems using all the prior skills they may or may not have learned. For example, in pre algebra, there are problems where you have to realize that you can substitute unknown variables for other unknown variables and get an answer that way. Your child has to be creative enough to take risks and think. Many of the questions have multiple solutions but many also incorporate strategies that are not taught. My DC struggles because she wants rules and is afraid to be creative. She will say, but we never learned that! And my answer is, that is the point. To think with logic, using what you know. Net: it is not something to MAKE your child do to get ahead or catch up. And yes, there are questions that took me hours to figure out!
Anonymous
Post 06/04/2021 09:33     Subject: Re:AOPS - why didn't it work for you?
Anonymous wrote:You can enroll in AoPS for a quarter at a time. We did it during the school year and are not doing it during the summer. DS is completing 3rd grade. He enjoyed it and it challenged him but he loves math. He plays math games with his Dad and enjoys developing his own math problems in different bases. The program is not going to teach the basics of math in a traditional manner but shows a lot of different “tricks” for solving problems and different approaches to math problems. It is called the Art of Problem Solving for a reason. DS is too young to have gotten involved in the competitions and stuff yet but they sound interesting.

I can see where it would not be for everyone but my kid has been enjoying it.

It sounds like Russian School of Math, I think that is the name, is more geared towards kids who need to work on fundamentals and practice. It has several levels for each grade so kids can work at a pace that works for them. We have not tried them but I have read posts from people who have used them and like them.


RSM is more flexible in that each grade has three levels, which include both fundamentals and advanced/honors tracks. The honors track is every bit as creative and advanced as AoPS. We've done both, and love both. They both require a comfortable facility with quick computation to get to the fun part of math.
Anonymous
Post 06/04/2021 09:17     Subject: AOPS - why didn't it work for you?
It did work for him, but he has a lot of other interests, and the classes took up too much time. We purchased the books and my husband works with my son himself using them on a slower, less time intensive basis.
Anonymous
Post 06/04/2021 09:12     Subject: AOPS - why didn't it work for you?
AOPS isn't for most kids. They spend 75% of their time focusing on esoteric contest math tricks while skipping over basic skills.