Anonymous wrote:I think the casual attitude toward divorce is awful. The advice should be to marry a man who agrees with your clear expectations on these things. Marry a man who will talk things through, is a good listener, will compromise, and isn't selfish. Marry a feminist. Not "lose your kids for 50% of the time and show them it's okay to walk away when things get hard despite no abuse." Y'all are f'ing up your kids.

How many feminist men do you think there are?

One time I added “must be a feminist” to my online dating profile and my messages dropped to zero. Before that, I’d get upwards of 20 a day.

Unfortunately, since men won’t become feminists on their own, they’re gonna have to be dragged into it by women not putting up with their sh!t anymore.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the casual attitude toward divorce is awful. The advice should be to marry a man who agrees with your clear expectations on these things. Marry a man who will talk things through, is a good listener, will compromise, and isn't selfish. Marry a feminist. Not "lose your kids for 50% of the time and show them it's okay to walk away when things get hard despite no abuse." Y'all are f'ing up your kids.

I am not recommending my kids get married. It is not worth it. Also, my ex was none of those things (he would not compromise, was selfish and barely spoke to me). It is not okay to stay in a marriage that is lopsided or miserable. That is bad for kids. Showing them that it is okay to put your needs first is the most valuable thing I can do. I was raised the opposite and look where I ended up (getting into a marriage that was not good from the start (and had a lot of pressure to marry) and staying due to pressure to stay....um, wrong.). There is a difference between marriages with love and ups and downs than a marriage where there is no respect or caring or love--then you leave.

That’s kind of sad to put your baggage on them. Most people do better in life with partners. Why not instead teach them how to have good boundaries and find people who treat them with respect? The best way to teach this is to model it yourself.

Anonymous wrote:I think the casual attitude toward divorce is awful. The advice should be to marry a man who agrees with your clear expectations on these things. Marry a man who will talk things through, is a good listener, will compromise, and isn't selfish. Marry a feminist. Not "lose your kids for 50% of the time and show them it's okay to walk away when things get hard despite no abuse." Y'all are f'ing up your kids.

I am not recommending my kids get married. It is not worth it. Also, my ex was none of those things (he would not compromise, was selfish and barely spoke to me). It is not okay to stay in a marriage that is lopsided or miserable. That is bad for kids. Showing them that it is okay to put your needs first is the most valuable thing I can do. I was raised the opposite and look where I ended up (getting into a marriage that was not good from the start (and had a lot of pressure to marry) and staying due to pressure to stay....um, wrong.). There is a difference between marriages with love and ups and downs than a marriage where there is no respect or caring or love--then you leave.

Anonymous wrote:I agree with it. Wish I had left earlier than I did. XH expected me to do all the household work, take care of an infant, while also working (without childcare, because it’s a “waste” of money), making 6 figures, AND he wanted me to hand my money over to him to handle, no questions asked. All with zero breaks - one time he found out I had taken a short walk after running errands while he was watching DC, and he flipped out.

I eventually stopped doing any housework at all because I was sick of doing all of it and being micromanaged. He grew more and more angry and we divorced.

And the PP who thinks it’s easier for men to find someone after divorce - it’s not. I’ve had way more luck than my xH. But honestly, I’ve chosen not to remarry or enter a serious relationship because I don’t feel like taking care of grown men anymore. I just don’t see what the benefit of marriage is for me anymore. I can find friendship, companionship, sex, romance, etc without giving away my labor.

My story exactly. He did more once the kids were in school but too late, buddy. (Also we had many other issues). We finally divorced. But I wish I did it sooner...I was acting like a single parent while married and miserable for YEARS...I might has well have been single. Also, having him involved with my money in this scenario made it worse. I felt like there were no advantages to being married...none...only disadvantages and misery. I also do not see the benefit of marriage at all and will never remarry. Boyfriend? Sure. Husband? Hell no.

Anonymous wrote:The reality is that men can find a replacement partner after a divorce much easier than a single mom can. I’d hesitate to divorce on the notion I can just get a new husband. At least if I’m doing all the work I can spend his money.

I really do not think this is true. I don't think it is easier for a man to find a new wife. I just don't.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For most of recent history, women did all of the chores around the house (or servants did), but they did not do paid work and they were not in a position to support themselves if they divorced. The bargain is completely different now. Men who expect women to live in the modern world but with a premodern division of labor deserve to be disappointed.

So true.

What??? Only true for a small small sliver of society. Poor women, farmers wives, miners wives, etc did all the housework, looked after children, tended the fields/dairy and some worked on crushing rocks to get extra income or looked after someones children. It was rare for a woman not to do extra paid labor, it was just not considered work for "real pay" by men and their society.

True, and yet not a particularly useful addition to the conversation. The small sliver of society is exactly the sliver who’s now discussing this subject on DCUM.

Anonymous wrote:For most of recent history, women did all of the chores around the house (or servants did), but they did not do paid work and they were not in a position to support themselves if they divorced. The bargain is completely different now. Men who expect women to live in the modern world but with a premodern division of labor deserve to be disappointed.

Amen.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm super thankful that DH is an equal when it comes to household/family stuff. But some of that is because I'm really laid back about how he handles a lot of things. My mom was super uptight and things had to be done her way. If they weren't (and usually it involved reading her mind), she would be grumpy, passive aggressive, and sometimes just yell. Eventually my brother and I just developed a "why bother" attitude around a lot of our chores because mom would do them anyways because we didn't do them to her standards. My dad didn't have a lot of household responsibilities because of this, but he worked and handled a lot of our extra curricular activities.

If you want someone to be an equal and do their part in the household/family stuff, you also have to let them do it how they want to do it. Otherwise that builds up resentment too.

My mom was like yours. We also blamed her as kids. When I became an adult and had my own kids, I realized how misogynistic that was. I teach my kids that washing the pots after dinner and doing a crap job that still leaves food crust in the pot is lame. Keeping house isn’t rocket science - anyone can do it with time and effort. Doing a crappy job on your share of the housekeeping so I either have to keep redoing things or give up and do it myself is theft of labor. I have better things to do with my time than wash pots or de-pink the laundry because you couldn’t be bothered to sort properly. If you’re over age 10 and you don’t get that, you’re selfish.

This, many times. Vacuuming living room before bedrooms is a different way of doing things, not when there is food still stuck to the “clean” dishes.

I agree with the original post overall - I would absolutely divorce over this. My husband does his half - any less than that is unacceptable to me.

My one quibble would be the use of the word "abuse" - I think that is unfair to people who are actually abused. To be like "oh, yeah, your husband beats you, I'm abused too, mine doesn't do any dishes" is unfair, and dismissive to the awfulness of actual abuse.

But - it's for sure divorce worthy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For most of recent history, women did all of the chores around the house (or servants did), but they did not do paid work and they were not in a position to support themselves if they divorced. The bargain is completely different now. Men who expect women to live in the modern world but with a premodern division of labor deserve to be disappointed.

So true.

What??? Only true for a small small sliver of society. Poor women, farmers wives, miners wives, etc did all the housework, looked after children, tended the fields/dairy and some worked on crushing rocks to get extra income or looked after someones children. It was rare for a woman not to do extra paid labor, it was just not considered work for "real pay" by men and their society.

Anonymous wrote:Mine kind of sucks with chores but he does his own laundry, does half the parenting, handles car stuff, yard stuff, etc. So I really don’t want to be a hall monitor with crumbs on the counter or divorce him for these traits when he’s a good person and supports me in everything I do, especially with my career.

A lot of strife comes from different expectations. One spouse expects a clean and tidy house with two young kids running around. The other prioritizes being relaxed and spending time with the kids over cleaning the kitchen. You have to meet halfway. You can't be pissed if things aren't held up to a high standard when you have kids at home. If it matters that much to you that laundry be put away within a few hours of it being done, then do it yourself. Otherwise, maybe give your spouse a day to do it because they need a few minutes to themselves or would rather read a book with your kid.

I say this as someone who wants a tidy house, but if DH is spending time with the kids or unwinding in bed when I know he's had a hard week, I'm not going to frame it in my mind as him not "helping" because there are dirty dishes in the sink. If it matters to me, I'll do them. It often doesn't and I let them sit and he'll do them without griping in the morning.

I can NOT imagine losing out on half my kids' lives because I'm mad about chores. I just can't.

Anonymous wrote:I think the casual attitude toward divorce is awful. The advice should be to marry a man who agrees with your clear expectations on these things. Marry a man who will talk things through, is a good listener, will compromise, and isn't selfish. Marry a feminist. Not "lose your kids for 50% of the time and show them it's okay to walk away when things get hard despite no abuse." Y'all are f'ing up your kids.

If the men who claimed to/pretended to be all these things while dating lived up to them, this wouldn’t be a thread at all.

Anonymous wrote:I'm super thankful that DH is an equal when it comes to household/family stuff. But some of that is because I'm really laid back about how he handles a lot of things. My mom was super uptight and things had to be done her way. If they weren't (and usually it involved reading her mind), she would be grumpy, passive aggressive, and sometimes just yell. Eventually my brother and I just developed a "why bother" attitude around a lot of our chores because mom would do them anyways because we didn't do them to her standards. My dad didn't have a lot of household responsibilities because of this, but he worked and handled a lot of our extra curricular activities.

If you want someone to be an equal and do their part in the household/family stuff, you also have to let them do it how they want to do it. Otherwise that builds up resentment too.

My mom was like yours. We also blamed her as kids. When I became an adult and had my own kids, I realized how misogynistic that was. I teach my kids that washing the pots after dinner and doing a crap job that still leaves food crust in the pot is lame. Keeping house isn’t rocket science - anyone can do it with time and effort. Doing a crappy job on your share of the housekeeping so I either have to keep redoing things or give up and do it myself is theft of labor. I have better things to do with my time than wash pots or de-pink the laundry because you couldn’t be bothered to sort properly. If you’re over age 10 and you don’t get that, you’re selfish.

Anonymous wrote:2 mom family here but I am definitely the primary parent. For me it’s not the division of chores or tasks that’s the problem, it’s the mental load that goes into everything. School, camp appts, activities, etc etc... I can ask my wife to do anything and she will but the thought process that goes into it is all me and that’s what I find exhausting.

That's so true!

I think the casual attitude toward divorce is awful. The advice should be to marry a man who agrees with your clear expectations on these things. Marry a man who will talk things through, is a good listener, will compromise, and isn't selfish. Marry a feminist. Not "lose your kids for 50% of the time and show them it's okay to walk away when things get hard despite no abuse." Y'all are f'ing up your kids.