Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually feel like setting aside 50-75 slots - 10-15 for each region of the county - for the top kids identified by the GPA and questionnaire - would be a pretty decent compromise here. Someone with some power and a voice - I have neither - should propose that as a serious idea so that we don't lose the genuine superstars.

No. Let them go to Mason.

+1 This will give them a real college experience, which they apparently need, instead of a faux one.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually feel like setting aside 50-75 slots - 10-15 for each region of the county - for the top kids identified by the GPA and questionnaire - would be a pretty decent compromise here. Someone with some power and a voice - I have neither - should propose that as a serious idea so that we don't lose the genuine superstars.

No. Let them go to Mason.

Anonymous wrote:I actually feel like setting aside 50-75 slots - 10-15 for each region of the county - for the top kids identified by the GPA and questionnaire - would be a pretty decent compromise here. Someone with some power and a voice - I have neither - should propose that as a serious idea so that we don't lose the genuine superstars.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is the point of looking for advanced kids if they aren't going to teach advanced classes anyway? Better foundations? you can get it in your IB school.

Ummm.... they are still going to teach crazy advanced classes and have the exceptional world-class labs. That won't change because a few more kids start in Geometry. The school used to be that way anyway - it used to be EXTREMELY rare that a student would come in any higher than Alg2 but now it's commonplace, and to the detriment of the school.

Actually, that's not true. I have a friend whose two children went to TJ, one in 2004, the other in 2011. She said there was a world of difference between these experiences, and the one in 2011 was way watered down. This is a person who is a scientist at a large high-tech company, with a "mathy" family and mathy kids. This is what she had to say:

"Here is a typical sequence of math classes in school:
Pre-algebra
Algebra 1;
Geometry;
Algebra 2;
Pre-Calculus;
AP Calculus AB;
AP Calculus BC;
Multi variable Calculus;
Linear (Matrix) Algebra;
Ordinary Differential Equations;
Complex Analysis;
and may be a few others.
Now.
***The trick is that different kids take these courses at very different grades! And many kids skip many of the steps!***
Pre-Algebra is regularly skipped. Geometry and Algebra-2 sometimes are taken during the same year, in parallel. AP Calculus AB is regularly skipped. Algebra-1 can be taken as early as 3-rd grade (I know one case) or as late as grade 10.
As a result, the kids who are coming to TJ **now** may have taken all math including AP Calculus BC already, before their 9-th grade. Or at least Pre Calculus. **These kids are ready to take Calculus based Physics right then, in 9-th grade.** And they are ready to understand complex algorithms taught in Artificial Intelligence courses.
How was TJ getting kids who are that advanced? The answer is simple - very tough entrance exams provided that preparedness filter.
Now take away the entrance exams. The kids who will come to TJ on lottery will be getting their GPA 3.5 in courses as simple as Allegra-1. The kids who were taking tough exams were able to pass them because they were getting their GPA 3.5 in courses as complex as AP Calculus BC. It is a **tremendous** difference in the level of preparedness. Can be as much as SIX YEARS WORTH OF DIFFERENCE!!! Naturally the level of math courses offered in the "new TJ" will have to go down to accommodate the new crop of students.

This can be achieved with zero private tutors and zero dollars. My son came to TJ having finished AP Calculus BC in 8-th grade. This was completed in his regular school. He took AP Calculus BC while still in middle school (he had to cross the football field and enter the high school building). " END QUOTE

Now, if you want to make an argument that TJ should NOT teach classes that advanced, that's up to you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Former staff here. Agree with previous commenter that if this stops over-acceleration in math that would be a good thing, although I still think parents will push their kids ahead. However, I have several concerns about this process:

-Most teachers that I know feel that the student information sheet as it exists now is a terrible part of the application and measures what activities parents push their kids into, not anything intrinsic to the student. Several years ago they did an analysis that found that the student information sheet was negatively correlated with performance at TJ, and now that's the only qualification for the lottery other than GPA? Doesn't seem great.

-A ton of kids get straight A's in middle school, and you need some way of differentiating those who get straight A's because they are really smart, and those who get straight A's because they spend all their time being tutored, retake everything, etc. In an ideal process the test and teacher recommendations would provide this information, but it does seem like the test is more and more reflective of who had access to certain prep programs rather than actual ability.

-The lottery offers the potential for the very best student in all of FCPS to be rejected because they were unlucky. This seems awful.

My proposal would be to include grades and teacher/principal recommendations and no student information sheet (I do feel that ideally there should be an admissions test, but I don't know that in reality there exists a test that reflects ability rather than prep courses), and use this to select the top ~150 students for admission. Then the remaining ~350 students who meet minimum qualifications can be accepted through some sort of geographic lottery. This way the kids who truly need to be at TJ would not be subject to the whims of a lottery, and there are still plenty of opportunities for students from all backgrounds to gain admission. (The 150/350 numbers are flexible; if data shows that it's closer to ~100 students who stand out from the pack, we could make it a 100/400 split; just have some way to provide a better "guarantee" that the very top students get accepted.)

Alumna here. This sounds like a great proposal. I think I would have been fine at my base school, although I was certainly challenged more at TJ, but thinking of certain of my classmates, it blows my mind to think they might be denied admission under this system.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Former staff here. Agree with previous commenter that if this stops over-acceleration in math that would be a good thing, although I still think parents will push their kids ahead. However, I have several concerns about this process:

-Most teachers that I know feel that the student information sheet as it exists now is a terrible part of the application and measures what activities parents push their kids into, not anything intrinsic to the student. Several years ago they did an analysis that found that the student information sheet was negatively correlated with performance at TJ, and now that's the only qualification for the lottery other than GPA? Doesn't seem great.

-A ton of kids get straight A's in middle school, and you need some way of differentiating those who get straight A's because they are really smart, and those who get straight A's because they spend all their time being tutored, retake everything, etc. In an ideal process the test and teacher recommendations would provide this information, but it does seem like the test is more and more reflective of who had access to certain prep programs rather than actual ability.

-The lottery offers the potential for the very best student in all of FCPS to be rejected because they were unlucky. This seems awful.

My proposal would be to include grades and teacher/principal recommendations and no student information sheet (I do feel that ideally there should be an admissions test, but I don't know that in reality there exists a test that reflects ability rather than prep courses), and use this to select the top ~150 students for admission. Then the remaining ~350 students who meet minimum qualifications can be accepted through some sort of geographic lottery. This way the kids who truly need to be at TJ would not be subject to the whims of a lottery, and there are still plenty of opportunities for students from all backgrounds to gain admission. (The 150/350 numbers are flexible; if data shows that it's closer to ~100 students who stand out from the pack, we could make it a 100/400 split; just have some way to provide a better "guarantee" that the very top students get accepted.)

Alumna here. This sounds like a great proposal. I think I would have been fine at my base school, although I was certainly challenged more at TJ, but thinking of certain of my classmates, it blows my mind to think they might be denied admission under this system.

Even with the old system, not every deserving student got in. Just like with top colleges, not every deserving student is admitted.

The harsh truth is that there will always be winners and losers in any system.

Larlo and Larla won't fail at life because they didn't get into TJ. Odds are, they will be perfectly fine. Their parents though...

Of course no system is perfect. But IMHO, the admissions process was pretty good at identifying the superstar students; it was differentiating between the very good vs somewhat above average students where it struggled more. An admissions process would certainly be better at identifying these superstar students than a random lottery.

And I don't think it's fair to say that many of these superstar students will be "perfectly fine" if they don't go to TJ. I think a lot of them would be pretty miserable to be in a school where there are only a couple other kids on their intellectual level.

The snotty reference to Larlo and Larla is just as offensive as the Amazon argument, IMO. I agree that there are some truly exceptional kids at TJ (think about 20 or so in each class) who will not be best served by remaining at their base school - I agree that some system that allows MS principals to identify these kids - just a handful - outside a lottery would be a good idea. Believe me - they are not the prep course takers - they are so beyond that level.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Former staff here. Agree with previous commenter that if this stops over-acceleration in math that would be a good thing, although I still think parents will push their kids ahead. However, I have several concerns about this process:

-Most teachers that I know feel that the student information sheet as it exists now is a terrible part of the application and measures what activities parents push their kids into, not anything intrinsic to the student. Several years ago they did an analysis that found that the student information sheet was negatively correlated with performance at TJ, and now that's the only qualification for the lottery other than GPA? Doesn't seem great.

-A ton of kids get straight A's in middle school, and you need some way of differentiating those who get straight A's because they are really smart, and those who get straight A's because they spend all their time being tutored, retake everything, etc. In an ideal process the test and teacher recommendations would provide this information, but it does seem like the test is more and more reflective of who had access to certain prep programs rather than actual ability.

-The lottery offers the potential for the very best student in all of FCPS to be rejected because they were unlucky. This seems awful.

My proposal would be to include grades and teacher/principal recommendations and no student information sheet (I do feel that ideally there should be an admissions test, but I don't know that in reality there exists a test that reflects ability rather than prep courses), and use this to select the top ~150 students for admission. Then the remaining ~350 students who meet minimum qualifications can be accepted through some sort of geographic lottery. This way the kids who truly need to be at TJ would not be subject to the whims of a lottery, and there are still plenty of opportunities for students from all backgrounds to gain admission. (The 150/350 numbers are flexible; if data shows that it's closer to ~100 students who stand out from the pack, we could make it a 100/400 split; just have some way to provide a better "guarantee" that the very top students get accepted.)

Alumna here. This sounds like a great proposal. I think I would have been fine at my base school, although I was certainly challenged more at TJ, but thinking of certain of my classmates, it blows my mind to think they might be denied admission under this system.

Even with the old system, not every deserving student got in. Just like with top colleges, not every deserving student is admitted.

The harsh truth is that there will always be winners and losers in any system.

Larlo and Larla won't fail at life because they didn't get into TJ. Odds are, they will be perfectly fine. Their parents though...

Of course no system is perfect. But IMHO, the admissions process was pretty good at identifying the superstar students; it was differentiating between the very good vs somewhat above average students where it struggled more. An admissions process would certainly be better at identifying these superstar students than a random lottery.

And I don't think it's fair to say that many of these superstar students will be "perfectly fine" if they don't go to TJ. I think a lot of them would be pretty miserable to be in a school where there are only a couple other kids on their intellectual level.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Former staff here. Agree with previous commenter that if this stops over-acceleration in math that would be a good thing, although I still think parents will push their kids ahead. However, I have several concerns about this process:

-Most teachers that I know feel that the student information sheet as it exists now is a terrible part of the application and measures what activities parents push their kids into, not anything intrinsic to the student. Several years ago they did an analysis that found that the student information sheet was negatively correlated with performance at TJ, and now that's the only qualification for the lottery other than GPA? Doesn't seem great.

-A ton of kids get straight A's in middle school, and you need some way of differentiating those who get straight A's because they are really smart, and those who get straight A's because they spend all their time being tutored, retake everything, etc. In an ideal process the test and teacher recommendations would provide this information, but it does seem like the test is more and more reflective of who had access to certain prep programs rather than actual ability.

-The lottery offers the potential for the very best student in all of FCPS to be rejected because they were unlucky. This seems awful.

My proposal would be to include grades and teacher/principal recommendations and no student information sheet (I do feel that ideally there should be an admissions test, but I don't know that in reality there exists a test that reflects ability rather than prep courses), and use this to select the top ~150 students for admission. Then the remaining ~350 students who meet minimum qualifications can be accepted through some sort of geographic lottery. This way the kids who truly need to be at TJ would not be subject to the whims of a lottery, and there are still plenty of opportunities for students from all backgrounds to gain admission. (The 150/350 numbers are flexible; if data shows that it's closer to ~100 students who stand out from the pack, we could make it a 100/400 split; just have some way to provide a better "guarantee" that the very top students get accepted.)

Alumna here. This sounds like a great proposal. I think I would have been fine at my base school, although I was certainly challenged more at TJ, but thinking of certain of my classmates, it blows my mind to think they might be denied admission under this system.

Even with the old system, not every deserving student got in. Just like with top colleges, not every deserving student is admitted.

The harsh truth is that there will always be winners and losers in any system.

Larlo and Larla won't fail at life because they didn't get into TJ. Odds are, they will be perfectly fine. Their parents though...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Former staff here. Agree with previous commenter that if this stops over-acceleration in math that would be a good thing, although I still think parents will push their kids ahead. However, I have several concerns about this process:

-Most teachers that I know feel that the student information sheet as it exists now is a terrible part of the application and measures what activities parents push their kids into, not anything intrinsic to the student. Several years ago they did an analysis that found that the student information sheet was negatively correlated with performance at TJ, and now that's the only qualification for the lottery other than GPA? Doesn't seem great.

-A ton of kids get straight A's in middle school, and you need some way of differentiating those who get straight A's because they are really smart, and those who get straight A's because they spend all their time being tutored, retake everything, etc. In an ideal process the test and teacher recommendations would provide this information, but it does seem like the test is more and more reflective of who had access to certain prep programs rather than actual ability.

-The lottery offers the potential for the very best student in all of FCPS to be rejected because they were unlucky. This seems awful.

My proposal would be to include grades and teacher/principal recommendations and no student information sheet (I do feel that ideally there should be an admissions test, but I don't know that in reality there exists a test that reflects ability rather than prep courses), and use this to select the top ~150 students for admission. Then the remaining ~350 students who meet minimum qualifications can be accepted through some sort of geographic lottery. This way the kids who truly need to be at TJ would not be subject to the whims of a lottery, and there are still plenty of opportunities for students from all backgrounds to gain admission. (The 150/350 numbers are flexible; if data shows that it's closer to ~100 students who stand out from the pack, we could make it a 100/400 split; just have some way to provide a better "guarantee" that the very top students get accepted.)

Alumna here. This sounds like a great proposal. I think I would have been fine at my base school, although I was certainly challenged more at TJ, but thinking of certain of my classmates, it blows my mind to think they might be denied admission under this system.

Anonymous wrote:Former staff here. Agree with previous commenter that if this stops over-acceleration in math that would be a good thing, although I still think parents will push their kids ahead. However, I have several concerns about this process:

-Most teachers that I know feel that the student information sheet as it exists now is a terrible part of the application and measures what activities parents push their kids into, not anything intrinsic to the student. Several years ago they did an analysis that found that the student information sheet was negatively correlated with performance at TJ, and now that's the only qualification for the lottery other than GPA? Doesn't seem great.

-A ton of kids get straight A's in middle school, and you need some way of differentiating those who get straight A's because they are really smart, and those who get straight A's because they spend all their time being tutored, retake everything, etc. In an ideal process the test and teacher recommendations would provide this information, but it does seem like the test is more and more reflective of who had access to certain prep programs rather than actual ability.

-The lottery offers the potential for the very best student in all of FCPS to be rejected because they were unlucky. This seems awful.

My proposal would be to include grades and teacher/principal recommendations and no student information sheet (I do feel that ideally there should be an admissions test, but I don't know that in reality there exists a test that reflects ability rather than prep courses), and use this to select the top ~150 students for admission. Then the remaining ~350 students who meet minimum qualifications can be accepted through some sort of geographic lottery. This way the kids who truly need to be at TJ would not be subject to the whims of a lottery, and there are still plenty of opportunities for students from all backgrounds to gain admission. (The 150/350 numbers are flexible; if data shows that it's closer to ~100 students who stand out from the pack, we could make it a 100/400 split; just have some way to provide a better "guarantee" that the very top students get accepted.)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is the point of looking for advanced kids if they aren't going to teach advanced classes anyway? Better foundations? you can get it in your IB school.

Ummm.... they are still going to teach crazy advanced classes and have the exceptional world-class labs. That won't change because a few more kids start in Geometry. The school used to be that way anyway - it used to be EXTREMELY rare that a student would come in any higher than Alg2 but now it's commonplace, and to the detriment of the school.

Actually, that's not true. I have a friend whose two children went to TJ, one in 2004, the other in 2011. She said there was a world of difference between these experiences, and the one in 2011 was way watered down. This is a person who is a scientist at a large high-tech company, with a "mathy" family and mathy kids. This is what she had to say:

"Here is a typical sequence of math classes in school:
Pre-algebra
Algebra 1;
Geometry;
Algebra 2;
Pre-Calculus;
AP Calculus AB;
AP Calculus BC;
Multi variable Calculus;
Linear (Matrix) Algebra;
Ordinary Differential Equations;
Complex Analysis;
and may be a few others.
Now.
***The trick is that different kids take these courses at very different grades! And many kids skip many of the steps!***
Pre-Algebra is regularly skipped. Geometry and Algebra-2 sometimes are taken during the same year, in parallel. AP Calculus AB is regularly skipped. Algebra-1 can be taken as early as 3-rd grade (I know one case) or as late as grade 10.
As a result, the kids who are coming to TJ **now** may have taken all math including AP Calculus BC already, before their 9-th grade. Or at least Pre Calculus. **These kids are ready to take Calculus based Physics right then, in 9-th grade.** And they are ready to understand complex algorithms taught in Artificial Intelligence courses.
How was TJ getting kids who are that advanced? The answer is simple - very tough entrance exams provided that preparedness filter.
Now take away the entrance exams. The kids who will come to TJ on lottery will be getting their GPA 3.5 in courses as simple as Allegra-1. The kids who were taking tough exams were able to pass them because they were getting their GPA 3.5 in courses as complex as AP Calculus BC. It is a **tremendous** difference in the level of preparedness. Can be as much as SIX YEARS WORTH OF DIFFERENCE!!! Naturally the level of math courses offered in the "new TJ" will have to go down to accommodate the new crop of students.

This can be achieved with zero private tutors and zero dollars. My son came to TJ having finished AP Calculus BC in 8-th grade. This was completed in his regular school. He took AP Calculus BC while still in middle school (he had to cross the football field and enter the high school building). " END QUOTE

Now, if you want to make an argument that TJ should NOT teach classes that advanced, that's up to you.