OP, my kids are the same ages of yours and I was thinking about this post while I was laying in bed this morning. I am kind of horrified that you allow your 3YO to go outside unsupervised. That is wildly inappropriate and unsafe. You mention that they are allowed to play in the driveway. Driveways lead to streets. What happens when one of them chases a ball into the street right when a car is coming?

Are you that parent who lets their 3YO play outside with the other neighborhood kids unsupervised, putting the onus on other parents who ARE superivising their kids to also supervise yours?

Anonymous wrote:9.37 again. I forgot to address the misbehavior that you listed.

I was cleaning the bathrooms and they were playing inside... for some reason they decided to pull out all of their clothes from the dresser, throw a full open water bottle at one another, and also throw all my work papers around my office

Whether they knew not to do the above or not, YOU left your children unsupervised long enough to let it happen. While they should be corrected, YOU need to supervise your children. Maybe that means checking on them between each part of cleaning the bathroom: spray the shower, check, scrub the toilet, check, wipe the mirror, check, clean the sink, check, clean the shower, check, move on to the next bathroom. Maybe it means they need to play just outside the bathroom door. Whatever you choose to do, YOU need to change what you do.

throw a full open water bottle at one another

No more water bottles. They need to mop up the water, then walk the wet towels to the washing machine and put them in (if front loader, hand them to you if it’s a top loader).

pull out all of their clothes from the dresser

They have to make a good faith attempt at refilling each piece of clothing. Then it needs to go into the appropriate drawer. Personally, I wouldn’t care if it was wrinkled, because... kids. If you care, retold everything after they’re asleep.

throw all my work papers around my office

The office door is now locked anytime you aren’t in it. They need to pick up all the papers and stack them as neatly as they can (keeping in mind that they are 3 and 5, so not very neat...) on your desk.

If you can’t or won’t supervise your children, they will misbehave. That’s the nature of children. When they do, the consequence should be directly related to the misbehavior, if at all possible. You need to reframe your expectations and figure out a way to parent safely, or your children could end up in serious trouble (5yo disappearing or being hurt when nobody knew they were outside is nightmare-inducing).

+10000
My parenting mantra is the buck stops with me. If kids that little are getting into that much trouble it's because I've set them up for failure.

9.37 again. I forgot to address the misbehavior that you listed.

I was cleaning the bathrooms and they were playing inside... for some reason they decided to pull out all of their clothes from the dresser, throw a full open water bottle at one another, and also throw all my work papers around my office

Whether they knew not to do the above or not, YOU left your children unsupervised long enough to let it happen. While they should be corrected, YOU need to supervise your children. Maybe that means checking on them between each part of cleaning the bathroom: spray the shower, check, scrub the toilet, check, wipe the mirror, check, clean the sink, check, clean the shower, check, move on to the next bathroom. Maybe it means they need to play just outside the bathroom door. Whatever you choose to do, YOU need to change what you do.

throw a full open water bottle at one another

No more water bottles. They need to mop up the water, then walk the wet towels to the washing machine and put them in (if front loader, hand them to you if it’s a top loader).

pull out all of their clothes from the dresser

They have to make a good faith attempt at refilling each piece of clothing. Then it needs to go into the appropriate drawer. Personally, I wouldn’t care if it was wrinkled, because... kids. If you care, retold everything after they’re asleep.

throw all my work papers around my office

The office door is now locked anytime you aren’t in it. They need to pick up all the papers and stack them as neatly as they can (keeping in mind that they are 3 and 5, so not very neat...) on your desk.

If you can’t or won’t supervise your children, they will misbehave. That’s the nature of children. When they do, the consequence should be directly related to the misbehavior, if at all possible. You need to reframe your expectations and figure out a way to parent safely, or your children could end up in serious trouble (5yo disappearing or being hurt when nobody knew they were outside is nightmare-inducing).

I have no issues with the main floor being free of toys, but that means that you and DH should rarely be on that floor. If the kids are in the basement, you need an office area down there (not in line of vision, but where they can easily get to you and you can hear them) AND there needs to be a bathroom in the basement. If they’re in their (shared?) bedroom, you need to be upstairs as well, with bedroom/office doors open. I’m all for independent play, but that means unguided, not unsupervised. Also, you need to be making sure it’s actually independent; both kids need time to play separately.

The fact that you kids have both gone outside without asking permission, without appropriate safety gear and (for 5yo) while using something that is always supposed to be supervised... I was dumbfounded when I read that. I would have installed a deadbolt out of children’s reach, a doorknob requiring a lock or some other way of safeguarding my kids IMMEDIATELY after either the first or second time I couldn’t find them. Going into a fenced backyard is one thing, especially since I would set myself up near a window or the back door if I knew my kids would go in and out if the yard freely. But having a 3yo and 5yo completely disregard safety rules like that? No, my job is to protect children, even (especially, at that age) from themselves.

Yes, children need visual and verbal reminders constantly. A child’s JOB is to test the boundaries and make sure that rules and consequences are consistent and fair. It’s fairly common for 3-5yo to be able to recite a rule, look at you, look at what they’re not supposed to do, look at you, turn and do the thing they shouldn’t, then look back at you. They’re learning cause and effect. They’re learning what will be tolerated. And they’re learning that misbehavior doesn’t change the way they’re loved.

This is what I would do going forward:
A) secure the doors to the front yard and garage
B) move any footwear that doesn’t have closed toes to the back door or their bedroom (if the only convenient option is the type they need for safety, they won’t go looking for other options)
C) put helmets next to or hanging on the bike/scooter handlebars (especially important once they are 7+, when it’s actually age appropriate to be out front without supervision; even then, notice is required, and the consequence should be related (eg. no going out front for 2 days unsupervised if the child can’t/won’t tell a parent first)
D) have a family meeting stating the physical changes, emphasizing that the changes are for safety reasons
E) discuss (during the meeting) where parents will work in the house while kids play (same floor, kids need to practice letting you know when they switch floors)
F) discuss (during the meeting) how school will work in a couple weeks (unless you’re electing to redshirt your 5yo?)
G) reiterate (during the meeting) that misbehavior doesn’t change love, but my job is to protect them. They don’t have to like it, but that’s the way it is.
H) institute a jar, chart or other positive discipline tool to track when they let you know they’re changing floors or going to the backyard
I) follow through on tracking when they tell you they’re moving
J) reframe kids’ behavior in your mind with pep classes, a book, videos or podcasts. They’re acting in ways that are age appropriate (though still problematic). You are reacting as if they are older.

Sorry OP, but you do need to toughen up. We’ve raised 5 kids now and some more challenging than others. We never allowed the younger ones unsupervised outside (unless it was our fenced in backyard). Your children need to ask before they can go outside. Your 5 year old is not a babysitter for your 3 year old. I wanted our main floor to be clear of toys, but it never happened. Nor should it. You may want to adjust that and see if it helps. I also agree that your kids do know better. Obviously young children are going to make mistakes, but they are also opportunities to learn. You sound like a loving and engaged mom, but I’d suggest more consistent boundaries and consequences. Good luck!

I agree with many others that rules need to be repeated for kids to retain them. I always give reminders and it works. Independent play is important for young children, so I think you're on the right track with that. Are you working from home OP?

OP my kids are the same ages and these sound like pretty unremarkable issues.

I think at this age they just need constant reminders. I’ve found a morning checklist with sticker chart helpful. My oldest loves getting to check off that he’s had breakfast, brushed his teeth, etc.

They know the rules are shoes must be placed on the shoe rack by the front door, dishes taken to the sink after eating, and stuff like that, but they still forget a lot. Instead of punishing, I just remind them over.and.over and then make sure to praise how very helpful they are when they do remember to do these things. I think deep down they want to be helpful so I’m trying to harness that.

Also, you’re going to have to deal with toys on the main level. My oldest will sometimes go to the basement playroom alone if he wants to get away from our younger one. But for the most part they want to be on the same level as us. We have a small house, but still manage to find some space for toy storage on each level. We do try to keep toys on the level they belong on so we’re not constantly looking for things or having to schlep toys up and down stairs.

The helmet thing, I just keep explaining to my kids as a safety issue. They know it’s not a mean rule. I just don’t want them to get hurt.

These ages can be frustrating, but they won’t be little forever. Just keep it up with the reminders, positive reinforcement, and know you’ll miss these days when they’re teenagers!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We don’t have many rules - put shoes and clothes on before you go outside (or else they’d be out in their pajamas and underwear), only eating/drinking at the table, no roughhousing or toys on the main level of the house (they have a playroom in the basement and a huge bedroom with a ton of toys in both), and wear your helmet and close toed shoes when you’re riding your bike or scooter - and they for the life of them cannot learn. They’re constantly doing something they’re not supposed to and constantly being punished/reminded/put in time out. Is there something I’m doing wrong?! They need constant attention and are constantly on the go I just can’t keep up.

Kids have a need to be close to their parents, a rule like this is horrible. I grew up with it, and I can tell you that I knew as a kid that my mom didn't want me around and it hurt. I think that if you make your kids seem welcome in your house, they'd probably treat you better.

Same here. I was never allowed even a book or a blanket on the couch. It was a really clear 'we don't want you and your crap in our space'. No homework at the kitchen table, no visible part of 'me' in their space.

I barely talk to my parents now and had lots of trauma from all the rules and control. Your children are people too. No roughhousing I get because they can break stuff or whatever. Calm zones are great. But no toys is too far and sends a huge message to little kids.

Also 'for the life of them they cannot learn' - can you get some help with this and see a therapist? You sound like they are the biggest inconveniences to you and like it would be better if only they dotted every i and crossed every t you impose on them. They are people, learn to enjoy life.

Anonymous wrote:What do you mean "sometimes they don't ask before going outside?" How many times has this happened? I had an issue with my 4yo when we first moved in March and I was horrified. This is a huge safety issue, IMO.

I agree with this. If this has happened more than once, get a lock for the door that they can't open.
I don't mean to imply you aren't a great parent; obviously you are feeling defensive about that, and I am not trying to pile on.

What do you mean "sometimes they don't ask before going outside?" How many times has this happened? I had an issue with my 4yo when we first moved in March and I was horrified. This is a huge safety issue, IMO.

NP and to the OP, you're definitely not alone. And to the responders, I appreciate the advice given. I just lost my temper at my 5yo this morning and need to hear the advice. But yeah, so very hard to keep the patience day after day, after repeating the same things, the same rules. And it has a lot to do with personality - my 5yo is always into mischief and has little fear of punishment.

Anonymous wrote:OP here - thanks for the replies. I posted this quickly yesterday as I was hiding in the bathroom having a bad moment.

This is probably TLR as "defense":

1 - they are not punished solely for breaking the rules I mentioned and we spend pretty much every waking moment with our kids thankyouverymuch. They were in trouble because I was cleaning the bathrooms and they were playing inside (after we had made breakfast together, taken a bike ride to the park, did some Kiwi Crate crafts, practiced letters with the 3YO, the 5YO played his tablet, and they played in the hose washing the cars with DH) and for some reason they decided to pull out all of their clothes from the dresser, throw a full open water bottle at one another, and also throw all my work papers around my office, all of which they know they're not supposed to do (and if you tell me that my 3YO doesn't know better I would challenge you to that). Then the remote for our rc car was run over because someone left it in the street (sure, natural consequences, but there were lots of tears and stress over it). Then later my 5YO left without telling us where he was going on his electric scooter, which he knows he's not allowed to ride without an adult watching and he's not allowed to "show off" to friends because I don't want other kids riding it and getting hurt. I was tired of cleaning up, I was tired of being "mean mommy", and just tired in general.

2 - there are toys/kid stuff on the main level. We have arts and crafts, puzzles, and card games in the kitchen. They have their chairs and some books in the living room. Things like their wooden trains, Legos, Hot Wheels, and Little People need to remain in their own spaces either in their room or in the basement playroom. We spend plenty of time playing WITH our kids all over the house.

3 - my kids are allowed to play outside "unsupervised" in our driveway/garage and our yard. Yes, even my almost 4YO. They do need to ask to go outside, which has been one of our issues and something we're continuously working on because sometimes they don't ask before going to play outside or I don't remind them to put their shoes or helmet on.

Anyway, you all are right about the routines and it's something we'll definitely work on more. I also need to revamp my 1-2-3 Magic skills and also give them some more responsibilities. We moved a few months ago and we're in a whole new world of the kids having friends in the neighborhood and learning how to let them (well, mostly my 5YO) have a little more freedom and responsibility.

It sounds like you're really active and engaged parents, and that's great! I like that you are trying to give your kids independence... but it sounds like you are giving them a bit too much independence. I would never allow my 3YO to play outside unsupervised, especially w/ a 5YO siblings (my two are thoes exact ages) -- double trouble and all.

The electric scooter should either be off limits until your kids get older/mature, or it should only be used when you are there supervising.

Someone is going to get hurt.

OP here - thanks for the replies. I posted this quickly yesterday as I was hiding in the bathroom having a bad moment.

This is probably TLR as "defense":

1 - they are not punished solely for breaking the rules I mentioned and we spend pretty much every waking moment with our kids thankyouverymuch. They were in trouble because I was cleaning the bathrooms and they were playing inside (after we had made breakfast together, taken a bike ride to the park, did some Kiwi Crate crafts, practiced letters with the 3YO, the 5YO played his tablet, and they played in the hose washing the cars with DH) and for some reason they decided to pull out all of their clothes from the dresser, throw a full open water bottle at one another, and also throw all my work papers around my office, all of which they know they're not supposed to do (and if you tell me that my 3YO doesn't know better I would challenge you to that). Then the remote for our rc car was run over because someone left it in the street (sure, natural consequences, but there were lots of tears and stress over it). Then later my 5YO left without telling us where he was going on his electric scooter, which he knows he's not allowed to ride without an adult watching and he's not allowed to "show off" to friends because I don't want other kids riding it and getting hurt. I was tired of cleaning up, I was tired of being "mean mommy", and just tired in general.

2 - there are toys/kid stuff on the main level. We have arts and crafts, puzzles, and card games in the kitchen. They have their chairs and some books in the living room. Things like their wooden trains, Legos, Hot Wheels, and Little People need to remain in their own spaces either in their room or in the basement playroom. We spend plenty of time playing WITH our kids all over the house.

3 - my kids are allowed to play outside "unsupervised" in our driveway/garage and our yard. Yes, even my almost 4YO. They do need to ask to go outside, which has been one of our issues and something we're continuously working on because sometimes they don't ask before going to play outside or I don't remind them to put their shoes or helmet on.

Anyway, you all are right about the routines and it's something we'll definitely work on more. I also need to revamp my 1-2-3 Magic skills and also give them some more responsibilities. We moved a few months ago and we're in a whole new world of the kids having friends in the neighborhood and learning how to let them (well, mostly my 5YO) have a little more freedom and responsibility.

Kids this age don't purposely defy you. They needs tons of reminders and they need lots and lots of rules. They need to be set up for success constantly. Stop punishing them all the time.

Reward and praise them when they do well. A sticker chart; a weekly reward of some kind when they follow rules. Some kind of positive discipline system. And lower your expectations. No one, not even an adult, follows rules perfectly.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Slow down their lives, and make them repeat the rules right when they need to apply them. "You want to ride your bike? What is the bike riding rule? Helmet and shoes, right! So go get your shoes and helmet so I can help you put them on."

"Why are you walking away from the table holding a bowl of blueberries? What is the rule about where to eat? At the table, exactly!"

They are small children. They are learning. They are not short adults who you tell something to one time and they nod "Got it" and then apply it forevermore.

My parents expected me to be like a short adult who they only had to explain something to once, and would get frustrated and angry when they had to keep explaining rules. It set me up for a lifetime of perfectionism that led to some very dark places. OP, your kids need you to tell them the rules over and over, that's how they learn. Please don't expect them to just get it right all the time.

That's how my dad was - that's why I said it.