Anonymous wrote:I’ve been reading that it is important to tell our young children about racism, and not fall back on general statements about equality. We’re told to make the conversation age appropriate. But I haven’t seen or read what we’re supposed to say. What is age appropriate for a 4 year old? What are you teaching your young kids?

No matter what color your kid is, you tell them to be nice to everyone.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I understand. We are Jewish and will need to have that conversion with our daughter at some point as well. I remember the first time I learned about the Holocaust — ALL of my nightmares as a child were about Nazis. We will have to tell her that there are people in this country who want her dead.

I don’t recall learning about any of that before I was 6-7 years old, though.

In any case, I will think more about this and am certainly actively looking for more books to include in our collection that have POC characters and discuss these themes.

Thanks pp for thinking about it, it makes a lot of sense how you're feeling given your experience. I'm really sorry. For better or worse at least the discussions of race wouldn't lead to her feeling unsafe herself, but is more about empathy towards others and understanding that black people are often treated differently, don't have access to the same things, etc. Things aren't always fair and we don't all get the same shot kind of stuff at the early ages.

It was mentioned above but I've found @hereweeread and @theconciouskid to be really great resources for book lists. It's definitely the long game for sure and many of the deeper discussions are certainly for more age 6-7.

Right, yeah. And I appreciate your sentiments.

I’ll check out those resources.

I was called the N-word for the first time at 4 years old by a same-aged peer. I was bullied in Kindergarten at 5 for the color of my skin, so I do think some conversation before elementary is important.

Anonymous wrote:
I understand. We are Jewish and will need to have that conversion with our daughter at some point as well. I remember the first time I learned about the Holocaust — ALL of my nightmares as a child were about Nazis. We will have to tell her that there are people in this country who want her dead.

I don’t recall learning about any of that before I was 6-7 years old, though.

In any case, I will think more about this and am certainly actively looking for more books to include in our collection that have POC characters and discuss these themes.

Thanks pp for thinking about it, it makes a lot of sense how you're feeling given your experience. I'm really sorry. For better or worse at least the discussions of race wouldn't lead to her feeling unsafe herself, but is more about empathy towards others and understanding that black people are often treated differently, don't have access to the same things, etc. Things aren't always fair and we don't all get the same shot kind of stuff at the early ages.

It was mentioned above but I've found @hereweeread and @theconciouskid to be really great resources for book lists. It's definitely the long game for sure and many of the deeper discussions are certainly for more age 6-7.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:lol I read only fiction books to my kids. I'm not spending my limited time with them reading some boring crap about famous white OR black people. Trust me there are plenty of years of indoctrination once they hit elementary school. No shortage of education centered around leftist political agenda.

You are ignorant AF. There's nothing leftist or political about understanding that racism exists and is bad for everyone.

Ok thanks. I have a phd and don't care.

Okay, as long as you accept that you are practicing racism through your indifference and are part of the problem. And when your kids get older and hopefully (albeit unlikely) develop better moral compasses than you and ask you what you did to combat racism, you can tell them it bored you. You saw someone being tortured to death and countless acts of police brutality and it bored you. BTW, you can be ignorant and have a Ph.D. I have encountered many people like you in the work environment since I have one myself. You are proving that educational attainment alone does not prevent racism.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't teach my 3-year-old about racism. At this stage, I'm letting her grow in the world as she sees it where people come in all sorts of different colours and we're all just 'same but different'. Same for gender issues - she just sees or experiences girls doing a range of different things and in wide variety of roles, as do boys.

When she's older and starts to understand news or we come across issues, I will explain what's right or wrong and my view of those things.

Right now she hasn't encountered or witnessed racism or racial issues in her life - which I think is a good thing - and I think she's too young to really understand theoretical explanations.

You sound like a really loving parent and your intentions are good, but I encourage you to read more about this and what professionals and researchers recommend because they are all really in strong agreement that this is not the best approach as much as it sometimes feels right in our minds. There have been many resources in other threads to start learning about why it’s so important, Your Parenting Mojo has a bunch of podcasts if that feels like a good medium, just search race and start at the beginning of her series (wait is my toddler racist?). It’s all really enlightening and I didn’t realize it before either.

Here is a really simple, good visual on why kids are never too young
http://www.childrenscommunityschool.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/theyre-not-too-young-1.pdf

I saw that chart. Here’s the thing: my child plays with all sort of children and has never once mentioned race to me. Part of me wonders whether it’s right to draw her attention to differences before she can understand why I’m doing so. She cannot, at 3 years old, really understand racism. At 5-6 years old—sure. But at 3 years old, if she hasn’t ever mentioned race or showed preference for her own race, I don’t know if it’s productive to draw attention to it when she can’t understand the context.

pp here and I hear you - I think at 3 you're just starting the conversations and of course they would get more expansive at 5-6. I can truly understand your hesitation, I think most of us white parents have it. Though your child might not understand racism, but a 3 year old definitely understands fairness. And unfortunately the research seems to show that while your child may not be verbalizing that they notice race, that children very very much ARE noticing at that age and that they start to develop their own reasoning for why there are those differences in the absence of adults having these conversations. So by not drawing her attention to it, you may be letting her start drawing her own conclusions for why she sees more black people serving her food, or homeless on the street. There are lots of ways to go about this that don't involve avoiding it all together.

I thought this was thought provoking on this. It's not exactly what you were saying, but a sentiment I've heard a lot and that many of us feel (innocence etc). I pulled it out so if you want to read the whole thing so that it all goes together it's here https://www.bardsalley.com/do-i-really-need-to-talk-about-racism-with-my-children/:

"Also, let’s think about what we mean by “innocence.” To me, innocence is a child’s innate capacity to see clearly what’s good and what’s fair, without adult rationalizations and excuses for bad behavior. So, let’s use that capacity to help children recognize racist thinking or behavior early on and fight against it.

Another aspect of maintaining children’s innocence is protecting them from heartbreak. I certainly understand that impulse as a parent. But children will inevitably experience heartbreak, because it’s part of being human. Do we want their hearts to be broken (i.e. not working properly) by shallowness and self-focus? Or do we want them to experience heartbreak because they are empathic and sensitive to issues of human dignity and injustice?

I also think we underestimate children’s resilience. Children will be upset when they learn about racial injustice and they should be. It’s unfair and inhumane. But children are able to cope with those feelings and, in fact, their idealism and ability to take proactive steps to counter injustice can inspire adults.

If you feel an issue is important enough, you will decide to address it, even if your child may feel some initial discomfort. For example, as parents became more aware of the risk of child sexual abuse, they began teaching their children the names of their private parts and body safety rules. The outcome of greater safety was worth the risk of some child discomfort. Similarly, I believe the outcome of social justice is worth a loss of “innocence.”"

I understand. We are Jewish and will need to have that conversion with our daughter at some point as well. I remember the first time I learned about the Holocaust — ALL of my nightmares as a child were about Nazis. We will have to tell her that there are people in this country who want her dead.

I don’t recall learning about any of that before I was 6-7 years old, though.

In any case, I will think more about this and am certainly actively looking for more books to include in our collection that have POC characters and discuss these themes.

Here is some great content on what to say at what ages from a recent interview with the author of "Raising White Kids."

https://integratedschools.simplecast.com/episodes/harvey/transcript

Diversify the books you read them. Do all the books you read have white people or animals? If so, work harder to diversify your bookshelf with books that have people will other colors and cultures. That's the first step.

Then yes, buying books on history or civil rights is a good idea. Obviously these things may go over your kid's head for a bit. I think it's important to have the tools around.

One thing we were all taught is "we don't see color". But I think our generation has realized that we must teach our kids that the color of your skin can change how you see the world we live in. And part of what we're trying to do is empathize and LISTEN and learn from people who don't look like us.

Anonymous wrote:That some bad people will generally use whatever they can against other people, and race and gender are most visible and thus easiest targets. You need to know that none of it is true, instead it's mean people trying to take things from other people however they can.

When he's older, we'll get into the specifics of history as well as the positive stories of overcoming oppression. We are eastern european/jewish so lots of family history as well.

I appreciate you talking to your kids about this and I don't mean to pick on your post. But I wonder if framing this in terms of 'bad people' is part of the issue. We all have unconscious biases that affect our thoughts and actions but that doesn't make all of us bad people. It's important to learn to recognize those unconscious biases so you can consciously try to counteract them. I'm not saying that this should be a discussion with a small child, but I am saying that framing it in terms of bad people misses a lot of what we experience and it causes decent people who would never use the N word assume that none of this applies to them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't teach my 3-year-old about racism. At this stage, I'm letting her grow in the world as she sees it where people come in all sorts of different colours and we're all just 'same but different'. Same for gender issues - she just sees or experiences girls doing a range of different things and in wide variety of roles, as do boys.

When she's older and starts to understand news or we come across issues, I will explain what's right or wrong and my view of those things.

Right now she hasn't encountered or witnessed racism or racial issues in her life - which I think is a good thing - and I think she's too young to really understand theoretical explanations.

You sound like a really loving parent and your intentions are good, but I encourage you to read more about this and what professionals and researchers recommend because they are all really in strong agreement that this is not the best approach as much as it sometimes feels right in our minds. There have been many resources in other threads to start learning about why it’s so important, Your Parenting Mojo has a bunch of podcasts if that feels like a good medium, just search race and start at the beginning of her series (wait is my toddler racist?). It’s all really enlightening and I didn’t realize it before either.

Here is a really simple, good visual on why kids are never too young
http://www.childrenscommunityschool.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/theyre-not-too-young-1.pdf

I saw that chart. Here’s the thing: my child plays with all sort of children and has never once mentioned race to me. Part of me wonders whether it’s right to draw her attention to differences before she can understand why I’m doing so. She cannot, at 3 years old, really understand racism. At 5-6 years old—sure. But at 3 years old, if she hasn’t ever mentioned race or showed preference for her own race, I don’t know if it’s productive to draw attention to it when she can’t understand the context.

pp here and I hear you - I think at 3 you're just starting the conversations and of course they would get more expansive at 5-6. I can truly understand your hesitation, I think most of us white parents have it. Though your child might not understand racism, but a 3 year old definitely understands fairness. And unfortunately the research seems to show that while your child may not be verbalizing that they notice race, that children very very much ARE noticing at that age and that they start to develop their own reasoning for why there are those differences in the absence of adults having these conversations. So by not drawing her attention to it, you may be letting her start drawing her own conclusions for why she sees more black people serving her food, or homeless on the street. There are lots of ways to go about this that don't involve avoiding it all together.

I thought this was thought provoking on this. It's not exactly what you were saying, but a sentiment I've heard a lot and that many of us feel (innocence etc). I pulled it out so if you want to read the whole thing so that it all goes together it's here https://www.bardsalley.com/do-i-really-need-to-talk-about-racism-with-my-children/:

"Also, let’s think about what we mean by “innocence.” To me, innocence is a child’s innate capacity to see clearly what’s good and what’s fair, without adult rationalizations and excuses for bad behavior. So, let’s use that capacity to help children recognize racist thinking or behavior early on and fight against it.

Another aspect of maintaining children’s innocence is protecting them from heartbreak. I certainly understand that impulse as a parent. But children will inevitably experience heartbreak, because it’s part of being human. Do we want their hearts to be broken (i.e. not working properly) by shallowness and self-focus? Or do we want them to experience heartbreak because they are empathic and sensitive to issues of human dignity and injustice?

I also think we underestimate children’s resilience. Children will be upset when they learn about racial injustice and they should be. It’s unfair and inhumane. But children are able to cope with those feelings and, in fact, their idealism and ability to take proactive steps to counter injustice can inspire adults.

If you feel an issue is important enough, you will decide to address it, even if your child may feel some initial discomfort. For example, as parents became more aware of the risk of child sexual abuse, they began teaching their children the names of their private parts and body safety rules. The outcome of greater safety was worth the risk of some child discomfort. Similarly, I believe the outcome of social justice is worth a loss of “innocence.”"

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:lol I read only fiction books to my kids. I'm not spending my limited time with them reading some boring crap about famous white OR black people. Trust me there are plenty of years of indoctrination once they hit elementary school. No shortage of education centered around leftist political agenda.

You are ignorant AF. There's nothing leftist or political about understanding that racism exists and is bad for everyone.

Ok thanks. I have a phd and don't care.

And I should add that it's in a real, actual field. Not grievance studies

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:lol I read only fiction books to my kids. I'm not spending my limited time with them reading some boring crap about famous white OR black people. Trust me there are plenty of years of indoctrination once they hit elementary school. No shortage of education centered around leftist political agenda.

You are ignorant AF. There's nothing leftist or political about understanding that racism exists and is bad for everyone.

Ok thanks. I have a phd and don't care.

Anonymous wrote:lol I read only fiction books to my kids. I'm not spending my limited time with them reading some boring crap about famous white OR black people. Trust me there are plenty of years of indoctrination once they hit elementary school. No shortage of education centered around leftist political agenda.

You are ignorant AF. There's nothing leftist or political about understanding that racism exists and is bad for everyone.

Anonymous wrote:We read age-appropriate bios of famous civil rights leaders, and we talk about what they were fighting against and for. We talk about how in the past, and even today, some people think that it's okay to treat others badly because of the color of their skin. And we talk about how that's never okay -- that we should treat everyone with kindness.

We also talk about how people have different color skin/hair, etc., because of where their ancestors lived (people whose ancestors lived in places where it was hotter tend to have darker skin; people whose ancestors lived in places where it was colder tend to have lighter skin). And how great it is that people have different hair and skin and eyes, etc.

As the kids get older, we talk about history in more detail, and about the specific ways that black people and other minorities were discriminated against (slavery, Jim Crow, Indian removal, redlining, etc.) and the ways that racism still shows itself in our society.

+1. My children are biracial and their father moved to the US from Africa when he was in grade school. We are also an interfaith household. We are subscribed to the Growing Jewish Families program through the Greater Jewish Federation of Washington so both of my kids get monthly age-appropriate books related (directly or otherwise) to Judaism; we also subscribe to the Just Like Me! box (https://www.justlikemebox.com/) so they also get books every month about children and people of color. This past week we have revisited one we got about MLK Jr. (https://www.amazon.com/Brave-Little-Martin-Luther-Ordinary/dp/1984814249), one about Rosa Parks that I can't find at the moment, and one about the Obamas. All age-appropriate.

We have a lot of talks about skin color and hair because that's what they tend to ask about most right now. We talk a lot about kindness. We've talked a little about racism, which the books about MLK Jr. and Rosa Parks were helpful for framing the conversation in a way they could understand but wasn't too much -- explaining that there used to be laws that were unfair to people with darker skin, and those laws are different now, but we all still have to work together toward kindness and equality for everyone. It was hard to tell my 5-year-old these problems are not all solved now. It will be harder when I have to tell them some people will treat them differently because of their skin color, but that conversation is coming. I've reached out to my black and biracial friends to help me understand their perspective, what worked for them as kids to discuss/understand, what they tell their kids, etc.

I just re-read the OP and title and realized you were asking for white children, but I'll still post this, because a lot of it is still relevant for them to know. I've recommended the Just Like Me box to my white friends/parents of white children who wanted to have books for their kids where the people look different from them. My kids (K/pre-school age) also don't necessarily understand what it means to not be white, beyond observing the physical differences in their friends and family. They understand they are darker than me, their white mother, but lighter than their father and grandmother ("Why is Daddy lighter than Grandma?" "Because Daddy's grandpa, his daddy's father, was biracial like you are."). My older one recognizes that she does not look like the African-American children in her class, that she's lighter except for when she gets sun, and her hair is different. She understands that this is because her mother is white.

The harder conversations are coming soon. I'm just trying to be as prepared as possible and keep it at a level that my kids can understand and are comfortable enough discussing...answering their questions honestly but thoughtfully.

lol I read only fiction books to my kids. I'm not spending my limited time with them reading some boring crap about famous white OR black people. Trust me there are plenty of years of indoctrination once they hit elementary school. No shortage of education centered around leftist political agenda.