Anonymous wrote:Just give her melatonin.

Anonymous wrote:I'm a new poster and was curious about the fluorid thing so I googled fluoride and sleep and a few hits came up including this study which shows possible links between fluoride and sleep disruption in US adolescents:

https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12940-019-0546-7

"The pineal gland is a small pea-shaped gland located between the two cerebral hemispheres and outside of the blood-brain barrier. It is comprised of both soft tissue and hydroxyapatite crystals. Its primary function is to synthesize melatonin, an antioxidant that plays an essential role in maintenance of normal sleep patterns [12]. Fluoride accumulation in pineal gland hydroxyapatite is present in higher concentrations than in any other part of the body, including bones and teeth [9, 10]. In 2006, a National Research Council report concluded that fluoride is likely to affect pineal gland function and cause decreased melatonin production which could contribute to a variety of effects in humans [13]. However, to our knowledge, no published studies have examined effects of fluoride exposure on melatonin production or sleep regulation in either humans or animals.

"Conclusion: Fluoride exposure may contribute to changes in sleep cycle regulation and sleep behaviors among older adolescents in the US. Additional prospective studies are warranted to examine the effects of fluoride on sleep patterns and determine critical windows of vulnerability for potential effects."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Cut all fluoride out of her diet. Do it for just one or two or three days. You should see an improvement in her sleep right away. If you're not willing to do that, give her calcium chews before every meal and also try to make sure she's not drinking fluoridated water.

Even if you think it's impossible this will help, just try it. I promise you it will, and you will have lost nothing, and risked nothing. One of my kids was like this. It was a miracle when we discovered the connection to fluoride, which was in everything, including his bottled water.

What is fluoride even in? We use fluoride free toothpaste still (probably should start her on 'real' toothpaste but my other two are younger and I just use the same kids stuff for all of them) and most of her water is just filtered out of our fridge. Does that have fluoride in it?

Yes, it's very difficult to filter out fluoride -- the fridge filter won't do it. Try getting distilled water for a day or two (and make sure it doesn't have fluoride added to it). It's in juices, soups, basically anything processed. The good news is that once you see a difference, you'll be super-motivated to find it and remove it from everything.

This sounds extremely woo-woo to me. Is there any actual science behind it?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Cut all fluoride out of her diet. Do it for just one or two or three days. You should see an improvement in her sleep right away. If you're not willing to do that, give her calcium chews before every meal and also try to make sure she's not drinking fluoridated water.

Even if you think it's impossible this will help, just try it. I promise you it will, and you will have lost nothing, and risked nothing. One of my kids was like this. It was a miracle when we discovered the connection to fluoride, which was in everything, including his bottled water.

What is fluoride even in? We use fluoride free toothpaste still (probably should start her on 'real' toothpaste but my other two are younger and I just use the same kids stuff for all of them) and most of her water is just filtered out of our fridge. Does that have fluoride in it?

Yes, it's very difficult to filter out fluoride -- the fridge filter won't do it. Try getting distilled water for a day or two (and make sure it doesn't have fluoride added to it). It's in juices, soups, basically anything processed. The good news is that once you see a difference, you'll be super-motivated to find it and remove it from everything.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Try the fluoride. It's simple and risk-free. No one's personality keeps them awake.

OP here and I literally can't find a single thing online about this. Are these actually multiple posters recommending this, or one person recommending it repeatedly? Do you have any sources or evidence?

Anonymous wrote:Try the fluoride. It's simple and risk-free. No one's personality keeps them awake.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mine was very similar, except she also couldn't fall asleep with anyone in the room, so there was no rocking or lying down with her until she fell asleep, either. She just had to literally drop with exhaustion, even if it meant cheerfully talking to herself for three hours. Once she was asleep she rarely woke up unless she was sick, but it was nearly always a fight to get there. I've definitely heard that "but I CAN'T close my eyes!!!" wail about a million times in the last 12 years! And yes, we also had an outside lock on the door for a while, although when we used it we did at least sit in the hall until she was in bed and quiet.

As she got into elementary school, being able to read in bed for a good long while did help her settle down, so she'd at least be relaxed while she was lying in bed trying to sleep. We set a routine and stuck to it, and were firm about "it's OK if you can't fall asleep, but you have to stay in bed."

Lots of exercise earlier in the day did seem to help a bit, although sometimes it would add tired/jumpy/achy legs to the mix. A large microwave heat pillow (one of those filled with rice or grains) sometimes helped to soothe the aches, and it also added a little comforting weight and helped keep her from jumping around. Sometimes we'd let her lay it across her chest, and that helped keep her still enough to drop off.

A pink salt lamp was a good addition, because the light was warm and soft, not stimulating, bright enough to allay fears but not enough to play by. As she got older we tried to involve her in finding sleep solutions, which I think helped a bit.

I'd say it was probably about 2nd or 3rd grade that she finally made the connection between sleeping at night and how she felt the next day. She eventually realized mom & dad were right, that she did need to sleep, but still just couldn't. But then, knowing she needed to sleep and not being able to created a weird cycle of anxiety. Guided mediations apps would help for a while, then when that stopped working we'd switch to music, then back to meditation. It really helped her to have something to focus on as she was trying to sleep.

She's in middle school now, and knows she needs her sleep, and does her best to make it happen. She's created a space she finds relaxing and a routine that she tries to stick to, and we've worked out a couple of fallback alternatives to lying in bed fretting all night when she has an extra-hard time. She'll sometimes take a dose of melatonin on a bad night, or to reset after a weekend of staying up/sleeping later.

TL/DR: Our similarly crappy sleeper still isn't a great sleeper, but she's stopped fighting us and is really trying find ways to do better.

At 5, you may have a few more years before the penny drops and she stops fighting you (even if she's still fighting sleep, intentionally or not), but you might at least be able to start working on the shift toward an "us vs the problem" mindset.

Mine is the same way. Since she was about a year old, she couldn't have anyone in the room with her. Makes traveling and vacations very difficult.

This is helpful and sounds a lot like her so I suspect our trajectory will be similar. I don't think she's trying to be difficult, I think she genuinely struggles to fall asleep. She also talks to herself for upwards of an hour before finally falling asleep.

Thank you!

Why are you thanking the PP? Her DD still struggles years on in. Are you giving up on finding a way for your DC to regularly fall asleep at night?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mine was very similar, except she also couldn't fall asleep with anyone in the room, so there was no rocking or lying down with her until she fell asleep, either. She just had to literally drop with exhaustion, even if it meant cheerfully talking to herself for three hours. Once she was asleep she rarely woke up unless she was sick, but it was nearly always a fight to get there. I've definitely heard that "but I CAN'T close my eyes!!!" wail about a million times in the last 12 years! And yes, we also had an outside lock on the door for a while, although when we used it we did at least sit in the hall until she was in bed and quiet.

As she got into elementary school, being able to read in bed for a good long while did help her settle down, so she'd at least be relaxed while she was lying in bed trying to sleep. We set a routine and stuck to it, and were firm about "it's OK if you can't fall asleep, but you have to stay in bed."

Lots of exercise earlier in the day did seem to help a bit, although sometimes it would add tired/jumpy/achy legs to the mix. A large microwave heat pillow (one of those filled with rice or grains) sometimes helped to soothe the aches, and it also added a little comforting weight and helped keep her from jumping around. Sometimes we'd let her lay it across her chest, and that helped keep her still enough to drop off.

A pink salt lamp was a good addition, because the light was warm and soft, not stimulating, bright enough to allay fears but not enough to play by. As she got older we tried to involve her in finding sleep solutions, which I think helped a bit.

I'd say it was probably about 2nd or 3rd grade that she finally made the connection between sleeping at night and how she felt the next day. She eventually realized mom & dad were right, that she did need to sleep, but still just couldn't. But then, knowing she needed to sleep and not being able to created a weird cycle of anxiety. Guided mediations apps would help for a while, then when that stopped working we'd switch to music, then back to meditation. It really helped her to have something to focus on as she was trying to sleep.

She's in middle school now, and knows she needs her sleep, and does her best to make it happen. She's created a space she finds relaxing and a routine that she tries to stick to, and we've worked out a couple of fallback alternatives to lying in bed fretting all night when she has an extra-hard time. She'll sometimes take a dose of melatonin on a bad night, or to reset after a weekend of staying up/sleeping later.

TL/DR: Our similarly crappy sleeper still isn't a great sleeper, but she's stopped fighting us and is really trying find ways to do better.

At 5, you may have a few more years before the penny drops and she stops fighting you (even if she's still fighting sleep, intentionally or not), but you might at least be able to start working on the shift toward an "us vs the problem" mindset.

Mine is the same way. Since she was about a year old, she couldn't have anyone in the room with her. Makes traveling and vacations very difficult.

This is helpful and sounds a lot like her so I suspect our trajectory will be similar. I don't think she's trying to be difficult, I think she genuinely struggles to fall asleep. She also talks to herself for upwards of an hour before finally falling asleep.

Thank you!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mine was very similar, except she also couldn't fall asleep with anyone in the room, so there was no rocking or lying down with her until she fell asleep, either. She just had to literally drop with exhaustion, even if it meant cheerfully talking to herself for three hours. Once she was asleep she rarely woke up unless she was sick, but it was nearly always a fight to get there. I've definitely heard that "but I CAN'T close my eyes!!!" wail about a million times in the last 12 years! And yes, we also had an outside lock on the door for a while, although when we used it we did at least sit in the hall until she was in bed and quiet.

As she got into elementary school, being able to read in bed for a good long while did help her settle down, so she'd at least be relaxed while she was lying in bed trying to sleep. We set a routine and stuck to it, and were firm about "it's OK if you can't fall asleep, but you have to stay in bed."

Lots of exercise earlier in the day did seem to help a bit, although sometimes it would add tired/jumpy/achy legs to the mix. A large microwave heat pillow (one of those filled with rice or grains) sometimes helped to soothe the aches, and it also added a little comforting weight and helped keep her from jumping around. Sometimes we'd let her lay it across her chest, and that helped keep her still enough to drop off.

A pink salt lamp was a good addition, because the light was warm and soft, not stimulating, bright enough to allay fears but not enough to play by. As she got older we tried to involve her in finding sleep solutions, which I think helped a bit.

I'd say it was probably about 2nd or 3rd grade that she finally made the connection between sleeping at night and how she felt the next day. She eventually realized mom & dad were right, that she did need to sleep, but still just couldn't. But then, knowing she needed to sleep and not being able to created a weird cycle of anxiety. Guided mediations apps would help for a while, then when that stopped working we'd switch to music, then back to meditation. It really helped her to have something to focus on as she was trying to sleep.

She's in middle school now, and knows she needs her sleep, and does her best to make it happen. She's created a space she finds relaxing and a routine that she tries to stick to, and we've worked out a couple of fallback alternatives to lying in bed fretting all night when she has an extra-hard time. She'll sometimes take a dose of melatonin on a bad night, or to reset after a weekend of staying up/sleeping later.

TL/DR: Our similarly crappy sleeper still isn't a great sleeper, but she's stopped fighting us and is really trying find ways to do better.

At 5, you may have a few more years before the penny drops and she stops fighting you (even if she's still fighting sleep, intentionally or not), but you might at least be able to start working on the shift toward an "us vs the problem" mindset.

Mine is the same way. Since she was about a year old, she couldn't have anyone in the room with her. Makes traveling and vacations very difficult.

This is helpful and sounds a lot like her so I suspect our trajectory will be similar. I don't think she's trying to be difficult, I think she genuinely struggles to fall asleep. She also talks to herself for upwards of an hour before finally falling asleep.

Thank you!

Why are you thanking the PP? Her DD still struggles years on in. Are you giving up on finding a way for your DC to regularly fall asleep at night?