Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know what you're talking about, OP. One of my kids just feels sorry for himself when he gets in trouble instead of thinking about what he did.

I see parenting articles that say this is caused by authoritarian parenting. And I do enforce boundaries and punish. But talking to him doesn't do anything.

I don't have any answers.

Oh come on. How do YOU feel when you get in trouble? A little defensive and blaming at first, right? Nobody (adult or child) responds to getting in trouble perfectly. "Oh let me think about what I did and repent!" No. They react in concordance with their particular personalities, but always in somewhat self-centered ways. The angel child that reacts by crying hysterically when they get in trouble and begging for forgiveness is no less self-centered than the child who reacts by saying "big deal." Two different coping mechanisms; that's all.

Regardless of whether this is helpful to the OP, thank you for mentioning this, which should be mentioned more often!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi, OP. I was that kid, I remember telling myself "punishments don't matter, just stay strong and wait it out." I was very smart, had ADHD, and had very authoritarian parents. Everything became a power struggle because their response to my stubbornness and provocation (which it was! Intentionally to get them mad!) was to double down and be stricter and harder. Which made me double down even more. It was awful and the teen years were REALLY bad. My kids are young still, but my first is very stubborn (once she decides NO, there is no amount of pressure or bribery that can get her to change her mind) and I decided long ago that I was not going to engage in the same power struggles that my parents did with me. I can't really speak to the teen years, but I highly recommend treating him as the logical person he is - the books recommended above are great with that, but may be designed for younger kids. Model good behaviors (being thoughtful, apologizing when you are in the wrong, etc.) and get him a psychological evaluation just in case. I am a normal, kind person now, but that's despite of my childhood, not because of it.

It would be helpful if you would provide specific examples, so we can get a sense of whether this is behavior in the normal range or not.

Thank you. I really appreciate this. See above....

Also wanted to add that he is definitely digging in his heels. That is him MO. I do talk to him logically A LOT which I'm starting to think is a mistake. I also apologize when I'm wrong, and basically constantly teach my kids how to be a good person by pointing it out, "We could really use the extra money they gave us by mistake but it would be wrong to keep it so we're returning it," etc. It's really important to me. Which is why his behavior really burns me up. It's like he's saying, "I choose my own rules of right and wrong, not the family's."

Anonymous wrote:Hi, OP. I was that kid, I remember telling myself "punishments don't matter, just stay strong and wait it out." I was very smart, had ADHD, and had very authoritarian parents. Everything became a power struggle because their response to my stubbornness and provocation (which it was! Intentionally to get them mad!) was to double down and be stricter and harder. Which made me double down even more. It was awful and the teen years were REALLY bad. My kids are young still, but my first is very stubborn (once she decides NO, there is no amount of pressure or bribery that can get her to change her mind) and I decided long ago that I was not going to engage in the same power struggles that my parents did with me. I can't really speak to the teen years, but I highly recommend treating him as the logical person he is - the books recommended above are great with that, but may be designed for younger kids. Model good behaviors (being thoughtful, apologizing when you are in the wrong, etc.) and get him a psychological evaluation just in case. I am a normal, kind person now, but that's despite of my childhood, not because of it.

It would be helpful if you would provide specific examples, so we can get a sense of whether this is behavior in the normal range or not.

Thank you. I really appreciate this. See above....

Hi, OP. I was that kid, I remember telling myself "punishments don't matter, just stay strong and wait it out." I was very smart, had ADHD, and had very authoritarian parents. Everything became a power struggle because their response to my stubbornness and provocation (which it was! Intentionally to get them mad!) was to double down and be stricter and harder. Which made me double down even more. It was awful and the teen years were REALLY bad. My kids are young still, but my first is very stubborn (once she decides NO, there is no amount of pressure or bribery that can get her to change her mind) and I decided long ago that I was not going to engage in the same power struggles that my parents did with me. I can't really speak to the teen years, but I highly recommend treating him as the logical person he is - the books recommended above are great with that, but may be designed for younger kids. Model good behaviors (being thoughtful, apologizing when you are in the wrong, etc.) and get him a psychological evaluation just in case. I am a normal, kind person now, but that's despite of my childhood, not because of it.

It would be helpful if you would provide specific examples, so we can get a sense of whether this is behavior in the normal range or not.

Anonymous wrote:OP, consider reading a book called Parenting with Love and Logic.

A lot of it is about logical / natural consequences.

Are you willing to share what line he crossed, and what the punishment was?

He stole money from a sibling. Kid is old enough to know stealing is wrong, WTF. But it wasn't just the money -- we're talking about a small amount, but it was a gift from a special relative so it was like a keepsake that one of my other DCs wanted to keep as a souvenir, not as money. It can't be replaced. He had asked again and again if he could borrow, use and replace, the money and has been told no. We're talking a year and a half of asking and being told no. We're not talking about a lot of money either -- but the idea that he was told no for over a year, did it anyway knowing it would hurt his sibling's feelings (and mine) and could not be replaced with any other money, and then lied about having done it, then said his sibling deserved it, then said it was no big deal, "I already said I'm sorry," etc etc on and on and on and on -- I just lost it. This is how he operates, so it may not seem like a big deal, but it was the last straw for me. He had already lost screens for something else (and yes he has incentives -- he was told that screens were no longer considered a right, that if he wanted screens he had to earn them back, etc -- no impact). Plus he's been begging me for a phone, so I have been telling him for months that if he shows me he can be trusted he'll earn a phone, but he keeps saying he will and then doing dishonest shit like this.

I told him our phone deal was off. I was no longer going to be negotiating in good faith with someone who lies right to my face. I told him he was grounded for a month. I told him he would be replacing the money he took three-fold. I was super pissed (not talking to him in a soft voice, LOL). Nothing but self-pity and denial in response. Finally I said he sucked as a human being, that he wasn't doing any of the things he's been told to do to be a good person (or avoiding the things he's been told over and over to avoid to not be a bad person, like lying oamd stealing, again WTF) and that I was done. Just finished, and that if he was going to steal from family members, then he'd better watch his own back, too. Later he said he hadn't meant what he said, and I said "I did."

Not my finest moment as a mom, clearly. I admit that. I just lost it. I'm just completely and totally done operating in good faith with this kid and knowing he is going to punch me in the gut (emotionally) again and again and again.

Therapy for you both.

I’m related to two people like this. One was diagnosed with HFA and ADHD as an adult, and isn’t a bad person, just doesn’t appear to care about consequences of his behavior aside from how it ruins his own plans. The other appears to have a personality disorder and grew into being a very selfish, manipulative, and sometimes dangerous adult.

Your kid sounds like my HFA/ADHD relative. Talk to your pediatrician about a referral for testing. We are still annoyed by some of my relative’s behavior, but having a diagnosis helps us be patient and see him for the rest of who he is.

Anonymous wrote:OP, consider reading a book called Parenting with Love and Logic.

A lot of it is about logical / natural consequences.

Are you willing to share what line he crossed, and what the punishment was?

Also another book: How to Talk so Kids Will Listen

Good advice there on connecting while still providing boundaries.

OP, consider reading a book called Parenting with Love and Logic.

A lot of it is about logical / natural consequences.

Are you willing to share what line he crossed, and what the punishment was?

Anonymous wrote:The whole “punishments don’t matter” business can be a sign of ADHD.

Thank you. I'll look into that.

I almost think he's just gotten used to getting in trouble. Like he doesn't understand that he can control whether or not he gets in trouble by controlling his behavior. Seems like something basic he is not understanding about the world.

The whole “punishments don’t matter” business can be a sign of ADHD.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The way to do both is to stay calm, keep your cool, deliver punishments with love but don’t waver. Discipline is a form of love because it means you care and kids know that subconsciously.

The bolded. Thank you. I guarantee that whatever "discipline" the OP thinks she is administering, she is doing it wrong. Op you have some messed up views about what it means to be a good parent, your child is struggling as a result, and you think the child is the problem. How does he do in school? If he doesn't have problems in school, well, you are the problem.

He's not my only kid, so I don't think the problem is how I'm handing discipline (although I can't rule that out, since each relationship is unique). He does have issues at school, as I said in my OP. They don't get it, either.

Anonymous wrote:I think you need to get over the idea that your primary role is to be loving. Being a disciplinarian (TEACHING your kid) is equally important. My son is only 8 now but he sounds a lot like your kid. I'm disturbed that you've conclude he's "not good," as opposed to considering that you lack parenting skills. My son responds extremely well to incentives. I've long since given up the idealized notion that he should respond to softly spoken conversations about the values of being "kind" or whatever. All kids want what they want; that's normal.

That's not at all how I respond when he's done something wrong. LOL, I wish. He's not my only kid so I know how to continue to be a loving, connected mom even when I'm dealing with something they did wrong. My other kids can listen and try to change once things have calmed down. Not this one. This one is pushing the limits of my ability to stay connected to him. That's my point re: mothering vs being the disciplinarian. I feel it's time to choose the latter and that's hard for me and sad.

Anonymous wrote:The way to do both is to stay calm, keep your cool, deliver punishments with love but don’t waver. Discipline is a form of love because it means you care and kids know that subconsciously.

The bolded. Thank you. I guarantee that whatever "discipline" the OP thinks she is administering, she is doing it wrong. Op you have some messed up views about what it means to be a good parent, your child is struggling as a result, and you think the child is the problem. How does he do in school? If he doesn't have problems in school, well, you are the problem.

The way to do both is to stay calm, keep your cool, deliver punishments with love but don’t waver. Discipline is a form of love because it means you care and kids know that subconsciously.