Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From your post she sounds like a nice person, and I can't help but think your brother cheated on her, hence his stand on this and the fact that he is already married with kids, I am assuming though. If that is the case, I'd let brother know you already have plans to see her, I wouldn't cancel the plans.

I'm trying to re-read OP's post and I don't see any cause for the marriage breakup. For all we know SHE cheated on HIM or told him she was trying to get pregnant but didn't go off of BC.

A few points.
1. Does the ex-SIL have primary custody of the elementary schooler? If primary custody lies with your brother/his wife, that'd be a reason not to get chummy with your ex-SIL.
2. How close are your kids to this elementary schooler? If your kids and this elementary schooler are close, that's a reason to be chummy with your ex-SIL.
3. Your brother is your immediate family. Barring something like "he has child porn on his laptop" he'll be the one you deal with going forward for the next 40 years, NOT your ex-SIL.
4. If you know that your ex-SIL did something to blow up the marriage, that'd be a reason to only maintain a "won't act like Bele and Lokai from Star Trek" when you see her. (Ditto, if your brother really blew up the marriage but wasn't such a jerk as to warrant no or reduced contact, you might give a little more sympathy to the ex-SIL).
5. If your ex-SIL is a flight away, that's a reason NOT to maintain a friendship with her - if she were local, then it'd be easier to maintain a friendship and get something out of it other than your brother and his new wife's emnity.
6. If your ex-SIL tries to dig for dirt or spends an hour complaining about your brother, cut it loose.
7. I wouldn't put it on social media for sure.

Literally none of that matters when the child is involved who still needs aunts and grandparents around. The adults need to grow the F up.

Op here,
My understanding is ex SIL has threatened legal action (restraining order? Don’t know if that’s even possible) to prevent my sister in law from attending any school events / parent-teacher conferences etc and prevent my brother from attending them on days that aren’t “his”. My brother claims she said she’d sue the school if the teacher communicates with brother’s wife. I have no idea if any of this is true. He says she has also said she will call police if they set foot on her property so that custody exchanges are done on the street / in the car. To date she has not been willing to talk to my brother’s new wife (ie no words exchanged if she does drop off / they haven’t spoken ever) but my ex SIL has a significant other who has met / gone to coffee with my brother and his wife on some occasions and (according to my brother) is approachable and reasonable. The drama!!!

Anyway, because there is a supposed threat of further legal action (my brother and his wife are considering hashing this out in court, they say) this is the grounds for their request not to see her. I have no way or knowing if they are actually considering this or just want to control how the holidays are spent. In my experience my brother and his wife are actually very rational people on all other topics, and tend to give good advice, but my ex SIl was always kind and approachable too.

My brother went through an ugly divorce--because he had an affair, because he used family members, without us knowing, to cover up said affair, because he just walked out one day and drained all their joint accounts, refused to pay child support, and so on. I did and continue to have a relationship with my former sister-in-law (and fwiw, have no contact with my brother these days).

My brother made the same demands--don't have any contact with his ex. He can make all the demands he wants, but we are all adults and free to make our own decisions about who we interact with and how we do so. My brother showed his true colors. So did his ex; she remained gracious and put forth a lot of effort to ensure that her children continued to have relationships with with grandparents, aunts, and uncles.

OP, continue to live your life as you see fit. You are under zero obligation to allow your brother to dictate who you have a social relationship with, and under even less obligation to run anything on your social calendar by him. And if he gets all pissy about that, well, that's on him.

Anonymous wrote:I guess I’ll offer a different point of view. I think it might be better not to see her. It doesn’t sound like you two are particularly close - with the texts you describe and lack of contact. There are lots of people that it might be “nice to see” but aren’t priorities and some of those relationships fall away over the years. I don’t think it’s a great idea to go out of your way to cultivate this one. I’d say let it go. If she had been a dear, dear friend that you completely trusted and often confided in, spent weekends with, etc... maybe my feedback would be different. But a decade of knowing someone in the family isn’t necessarily a reason to stay in touch. My vote, don’t see her behind your brother’s back.

+1 Some friendships fade, and it doesn't sound like this one is a close one so I wouldn't try to foster it. I may feel differently if you were especially close already, but why develop a friendships when you know it's going to cause issues and pain within your immediate family?

Op here,
Yes, my brother did cheat on her which I don’t condone. Supposedly he told her as soon as things turned romantic (ie it didn’t drag out) but still not okay. Their divorce took almost two years to finalize and, by then, his AP was pregnant. He remarried soon after the divorce; the terms were that their child could not meet OW until the divorce was finalized and my brother believes that was a major factor in why my former sister in law wouldn’t settle sooner. I feel bad for their child who then didn’t meet his future step mom until a few weeks before they married (and a few months before the baby was born). My understanding is my ex SIl also behaved poorly - I know (confirmed through other sources) that she stole a few thousand dollars from one of his friends (he initially stuck up for her, but she later came clean) and I know she was in AA for years but had gone back to drinking before he left her (ie she was open with me about AA and I saw her drinking a glass of wine here and there last family vacation we were on.). I don’t know if her alcohol was a problem at that point - when they were dating i was concerned about it, but on our vacation I was not. They definitely had financial differences (she would make major purchase - like a car - without telling him) and in retrospect didn’t coparent well (things that occur to me now but didn’t then). I don’t know if she hid finances (including, he claims, opening credit cards by forging his signature on applications) because she wanted to spend more money than he did in an out of control way or if he was controlling. He claims he discovered toward the end of the marriage that she got high everyday - even when watching their child and he says that they hadn’t slept together for years; she apparently claimed in court that he abuses alcohol (may have been true, he currently doesn’t drink and I never saw this) and she told me that their marriage was a friendship and probably wasn’t a great one at that (ie I’m guessing she concurs they weren’t having sex).

They share custody of their child 50/50. My brother is pretty involved especially for someone with a demanding job (ie attends school plays, sporting events etc) She still invites my aunts, uncles and cousins to family events (ie her child’s birthday parties etc) but no longer includes my brother or parents. Frankly, I don’t think they’ve treated her well - my parents immediately sided with my brother and cut off ties with her during the divorce - but I think they hear - observe / know a lot more than I do.

My ex SIl were very close once upon a time, but I knew I couldn’t say anything that might divulge anything about my brother and she was guarded during the divorce too, so we’re not close anymore. For instance, we used to bond / advise each other when my mom did odd things but I wouldn’t share that with her now.

Anyway, two years ago she had a big gathering / gift giving event for her nieces and nephews at her house. I think my brother doesn’t want us going to her house for a production. He’ll have his child half of Christmas Eve, half of Christmas Day, and all day for many other days while I’m there so all the cousins will have time together.
I don’t really have a need to see Ex SIl (though I’m sad at how things have turned out and miss her) but would like to maintain a relationship/ open door for their child.

The hell? My uncle got divorced. I still consider his ex my aunt and would be pretty pissed if someone told me I couldn't see her.

Your relationships (and your childrens') are just that - yours. Of course, don't discuss your brother with his ex, but otherwise, you should continue to maintain contact if you want (and let your kids see her too, if you want).

*This all assumes she did not physically or emotionally abuse your brother.

I wouldn't allow my brother to dictate my friends or who I have relationships for. That's very controlling and I'd tell him so.

Anonymous wrote:I guess I’ll offer a different point of view. I think it might be better not to see her. It doesn’t sound like you two are particularly close - with the texts you describe and lack of contact. There are lots of people that it might be “nice to see” but aren’t priorities and some of those relationships fall away over the years. I don’t think it’s a great idea to go out of your way to cultivate this one. I’d say let it go. If she had been a dear, dear friend that you completely trusted and often confided in, spent weekends with, etc... maybe my feedback would be different. But a decade of knowing someone in the family isn’t necessarily a reason to stay in touch. My vote, don’t see her behind your brother’s back.

If, God forbid, OP’s brother were to pass away, OP would have to go through her former SIL in order to have any contact with her niece. That alone is reason enough to maintain a relationship with former SIL.

This struck me as immature of your brother.

It would help if you could elaborate on what is nasty about the divorce. Was it because he cheated? Is he mad because he’s trying to reduce child support now that he has two additional children and she said no? Did she behave badly? Mostly this would only slightly lean towards one or the other.

The fact of the matter is that exSIL will forever be your niece’s mother. He brought her into your life and it’s not so easy to erase her out. The request to sequester his relatives from his child’s mother will only hurt the child. If the niece is elementary age, she likely understands how her dad feels and it’s really damaging to have divorced parents with acrimonious relationships. You would be doing the right thing by not treating her mother like a pariah - even if you’re the only one who can show your niece that kindness.

Yeah, no. I'd go get tea with her.

1) You are an adult. Your brother does not get to choose your friends or approve your engagements.

2) This is the mother of your niece. As a person who is divorced with one child from my first marriage and another from my remarriage, I go out of my way to maintain some cordial relationship with my former in-laws, which includes things like grabbing a cup of tea when they come to town and wishing them happy birthday and such. They are my daughter's family, and therefore they are my family, even though I'm not married to her dad anymore.

I do not recommend you seeing her behind your brother's back, though. I recommend that you tell him, "Sam, we are adults and you don't get to tell me who I can and cannot hang out with. I'm sorry that things with you and Sarah ended badly, but quite frankly, that is between the two of you. When I come to mom's for Thanksgiving, I'm getting tea with Sarah on Friday. She is Amy's mother and therefore she is still family."

That said, I would also make sure that I am maintaining the same level of friendship with his second wife, absent extenuating circumstances. Family is family, after all.

Anonymous wrote:I would not ask permission from my brother even thought he situation is messy. If the ex starts fishing for information on your brother, back away. NO social media is a given.

+1

Since you, OP, are the one who initiated the idea of meeting for tea (right?), and you are not bringing your kids, you have done nothing that violates your brother's (controlling and petty) dictates.

I do agree with the PP that if former SIL seems to fish for even a little information about brother, SIL or their kids/holiday plans/how new SIL treats ex-SIL's kid etc.--change the topic like you didn't even hear her. Or just say warmly and kindly, "I'm glad to catch up with you and have always liked that we have our own friendship apart from (Brother). So I'm most comfortable leaving anything about him or the kids in his court. Now, what did you think of the ending of [TV series you both watch]?...."

Keep the teatime on a schedule so you have an out if things get awkward: "I'll see you at the coffee shop at 2:00 and by the way, I'll need to leave by 3:30 to make it to an appointment/get a haircut/meet my DH to Christmas shop etc."

And no photos that she could post on social media. While you shouldn't have to hide what you, an adult, choose to do socially, you also don't need to invite drama by taking photos. Still, that won't stop her saying online or even directly to your brother that you saw her. (Do they communicate about custody??) Are you OK with it if brother finds out? Are you OK with owning that you spent an hour with another adult and did not discuss him or his new wife? Just consider that. I would, if it were me, see her, but I'd go ahead up front and just tell him I was seeing her for an hour for tea without kids and it was set up by me before his order not to see her.

I would wonder if brother got wind of the idea that his ex does want to invite more of the family than you over to see her. Or maybe brother and new SIL are planning to attempt a custody change or other legal move soon and don't want his ex to see his family members just in case ex does try to fish for info.

Anonymous wrote:From your post she sounds like a nice person, and I can't help but think your brother cheated on her, hence his stand on this and the fact that he is already married with kids, I am assuming though. If that is the case, I'd let brother know you already have plans to see her, I wouldn't cancel the plans.

I'm trying to re-read OP's post and I don't see any cause for the marriage breakup. For all we know SHE cheated on HIM or told him she was trying to get pregnant but didn't go off of BC.

A few points.
1. Does the ex-SIL have primary custody of the elementary schooler? If primary custody lies with your brother/his wife, that'd be a reason not to get chummy with your ex-SIL.
2. How close are your kids to this elementary schooler? If your kids and this elementary schooler are close, that's a reason to be chummy with your ex-SIL.
3. Your brother is your immediate family. Barring something like "he has child porn on his laptop" he'll be the one you deal with going forward for the next 40 years, NOT your ex-SIL.
4. If you know that your ex-SIL did something to blow up the marriage, that'd be a reason to only maintain a "won't act like Bele and Lokai from Star Trek" when you see her. (Ditto, if your brother really blew up the marriage but wasn't such a jerk as to warrant no or reduced contact, you might give a little more sympathy to the ex-SIL).
5. If your ex-SIL is a flight away, that's a reason NOT to maintain a friendship with her - if she were local, then it'd be easier to maintain a friendship and get something out of it other than your brother and his new wife's emnity.
6. If your ex-SIL tries to dig for dirt or spends an hour complaining about your brother, cut it loose.
7. I wouldn't put it on social media for sure.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is weird.

She’s the mother of your niece so it’s flat out strange not to see her. Your brother seems out of line. He’s been divorced 3 years is already remarried with 2 children??! Did he cheat on her and marry his AP?

Also, what exactly is nasty about the divorce? At 3 years out, shouldn’t everything already be settled?

+1. There’s often a lot of acrimony after divorce but in my family, people maintain cordial relationships to the exes regardless of how the marriage ended because they are the parent of their nieces/nephews, grandkids etc.

Cordial, yes. Civil, yes. But it truly means so much to have a real relationship with your niece's mother.

Also, there is a lot your brother has to let go of. You do not get to dictate everything about everything where your ex-wife is concerned. Seems he is on a power trip. He doesnt have a nice neat life, and shouldn't pretend that he can just erase people from his extended family's life when it suits him. That will be hugely damaging to his first daughter, who is already going to be a hot mess.

Anonymous wrote:I guess I’ll offer a different point of view. I think it might be better not to see her. It doesn’t sound like you two are particularly close - with the texts you describe and lack of contact. There are lots of people that it might be “nice to see” but aren’t priorities and some of those relationships fall away over the years. I don’t think it’s a great idea to go out of your way to cultivate this one. I’d say let it go. If she had been a dear, dear friend that you completely trusted and often confided in, spent weekends with, etc... maybe my feedback would be different. But a decade of knowing someone in the family isn’t necessarily a reason to stay in touch. My vote, don’t see her behind your brother’s back.

As a child if an acrimonious divorce, please do not do this.

The family members on either side who were kind, warm and friendly to my "other" parent, were the ones who made the difference in my life, and who made me feel like I had a family, versus being some accident between two immature people and their immature families. The blame surelynfalls on both parties this situation. Please give your niece the minor bit of normalcy of sharing a friendship with her mom. It will pay dividends beyond measure.

You are an adult. You can see whoever you want without permission of others.