Anonymous
05/10/2019 14:01
Subject: Re:Vox admissions article
Anonymous wrote:I don’t think you’ve convincingly debunked anything, graph-posting PP. The author’s point about SAT scores is that they are overvalued because they haven’t been shown to predict much about the applicant’s success in school beyond first year grades. They don’t predict who’s going to contribute to university life, be a college community leader, a star researcher, etc.
The author acknowledges the other general correlation to post- college earnings and simply points out that that’s not a very meaningful reason to rely so heavily on scores because many of the higher scorers already come from wealth. Your attempt at debunking that is not very persuasive because, whatever the reason for the racial differences (and well-studied ones have been pointed out that you don’t address), within each group the lines clearly show that scores go up as income goes up. So, yes, wealth and scores generally correlate.
I don’t see any of the extreme views in the article that you are attributing to the author. The article is a lot more rational and nuanced than you paint it. And the example he gives about SAT scores is about a student who was an excellent candidate and well qualified and whose main “deficit” was a standardized score below the college’s median. I’m sure that there have been plenty of white male athletes admitted with scores similarly below the median. Nothing about his discussion of this example suggests that he’s advocating for acceptance of unqualified URMs with “shit grades”.
You are way too reasonable for that PP.
Anonymous
05/10/2019 13:58
Subject: Re:Vox admissions article
I don’t think you’ve convincingly debunked anything, graph-posting PP. The author’s point about SAT scores is that they are overvalued because they haven’t been shown to predict much about the applicant’s success in school beyond first year grades. They don’t predict who’s going to contribute to university life, be a college community leader, a star researcher, etc.
The author acknowledges the other general correlation to post- college earnings and simply points out that that’s not a very meaningful reason to rely so heavily on scores because many of the higher scorers already come from wealth. Your attempt at debunking that is not very persuasive because, whatever the reason for the racial differences (and well-studied ones have been pointed out that you don’t address), within each group the lines clearly show that scores go up as income goes up. So, yes, wealth and scores generally correlate.
I don’t see any of the extreme views in the article that you are attributing to the author. The article is a lot more rational and nuanced than you paint it. And the example he gives about SAT scores is about a student who was an excellent candidate and well qualified and whose main “deficit” was a standardized score below the college’s median. I’m sure that there have been plenty of white male athletes admitted with scores similarly below the median. Nothing about his discussion of this example suggests that he’s advocating for acceptance of unqualified URMs with “shit grades”.
The author acknowledges the other general correlation to post- college earnings and simply points out that that’s not a very meaningful reason to rely so heavily on scores because many of the higher scorers already come from wealth. Your attempt at debunking that is not very persuasive because, whatever the reason for the racial differences (and well-studied ones have been pointed out that you don’t address), within each group the lines clearly show that scores go up as income goes up. So, yes, wealth and scores generally correlate.
I don’t see any of the extreme views in the article that you are attributing to the author. The article is a lot more rational and nuanced than you paint it. And the example he gives about SAT scores is about a student who was an excellent candidate and well qualified and whose main “deficit” was a standardized score below the college’s median. I’m sure that there have been plenty of white male athletes admitted with scores similarly below the median. Nothing about his discussion of this example suggests that he’s advocating for acceptance of unqualified URMs with “shit grades”.
Anonymous
05/10/2019 13:21
Subject: Vox admissions article
Nerd fight.
Anonymous
05/10/2019 12:43
Subject: Re:Vox admissions article
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I am sick of this "Good SAT scores are correlated to wealth" nonsense propagated by the "woke left brigade"
Children of the richest black families ($200,000+ annual income) have SAT scores that are, on average, virtually equal to those of children of the poorest white families (sub-$20,000 annual income). Those same sub-$20k white children outscore, by 35 points, children of black families in the second-highest income bracket ($160k-$200k), and they outscore children of comparable poor black families (sub-$20k) by 180 points. For each income bracket, the black/white gap is around 150-180 points, or nearly one standard deviation. So basically, the lowest white group pretty much picks up where the highest black group leaves off, and achievement diverges from there
Source: The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education
Please also look at the large body of research on stereotype threat--a longstanding body of research (starting at the University of Michigan) that consistently shows that when black students are given a test they believe tests IQ (like SAT), they perform worse than white students. However, if they are given the exact same test but told it measures effort or some other construct the gap largely disappears. This effect has been shown to be extended in a variety of ways on a whole variety of stereotypes (e.g., white men jump lower on a test if they are reminded that whites don't jump as high as blacks, women perform worse if they are reminded of gender stereotypes about math, but not worse if they are told there are no differences, men perform worse on measures of reading/vocabulary if reminded of women's higher performance, than they do if they are not reminded or are told that men tend to do well on these kinds of tests, Asians perform better if they are told it is a test Asians tend to do well on etc.). One explanation for this is that part of one's cognitive energy is spent managing emotions about stereotypes and therefore the full brain is not paying attention to the task. Black students absorb so many racist messages that it is hard to approach any test of intelligence/academic skills without using some of their intelligence to tamp down negative emotions about it -- AND rigorous, double blind experiments consistently show this has impact on performance. And this isn't even getting at the cultural biases inherent in any tests...
Hahaha. The amount of BS that people will spew to explain the achievement gap that can be explained parsimoniously.
Let me quote Steven Pinker, who is no Steve Bannon
Pinker: I think you’re wrong about IQ tests in general. They’ve been shown to predict (statistically, of course) a vast array of outcomes that one would guess require intelligence, including success at school, choice of intellectually demanding professions, income (in a modern economy), tenure and publications in academia, and other indicators, together with lower crime rates, lower infant mortality, lower rates of divorce, and other measures of well-being. The idea that IQ tests don’t predict anything in the real world is one of the great myths of the intellectuals.
The ugly truth is that
Average African American IQ is 1SD below average white IQ, average Hispanic IQ a little less than 1SD below. Asian groups with the highest mean IQ are slightly higher than the average white IQ.
Mean differences in group IQs are the most likely explanation for the academic achievement and score gap between racial groups. not some BS "stereo type effect" which has been conjured up because stating the above is so incendiary that "SOMETHING ELSE MUST BE INVENTED" to explain the obvious gap because fools get so caught up in group differences that they don't realize that these IQ differences and the achievement gap are about groups, not individuals. So there may be extremely smart Blacks and dumb as door knob Whites.
In the end, no matter what you do, it is extremely unlikely that these score gaps are going to go away. So all kinds of ridiculous explanations must be spun up to protect the ego and self-image of certain groups.
Anonymous
05/10/2019 12:09
Subject: Vox admissions article
The article isn't wrong but as someone who is embedded in and benefitting from the system, the author has a huge blind spot when largely excusing the schools: the outrageous expense to attend. The fact is the schools desperately need full pay wealthy students and so they fix the system to guarantee a steady stream of them.
The way college admissions can be helped if not fixed is to devalue the college degree. Don't make it a job requirement the way it is. Recruit outside of top schools. Don't make colleges and their facilities so dependent on incoming tuition (cut admin staff, fancy buildings, unrealistic pension benefits, etc.). We've made college into something it shouldn't be (and colleges are deeply complicit in this): a societal gatekeeper.
The way college admissions can be helped if not fixed is to devalue the college degree. Don't make it a job requirement the way it is. Recruit outside of top schools. Don't make colleges and their facilities so dependent on incoming tuition (cut admin staff, fancy buildings, unrealistic pension benefits, etc.). We've made college into something it shouldn't be (and colleges are deeply complicit in this): a societal gatekeeper.
Anonymous
05/10/2019 12:03
Subject: Vox admissions article
Maybe it is because most rich white families are old wealth and are top tier school educated and know how to game the system. Tons of private tutors, test prep, go to an elite college-prep school. Even if they make say only $250K a year, their parents are making a ton of money and they will see millions once they die.
Rich black parents are fairly new to our country because we basically held them down for centuries, and even decades after the civil rights movement. They don't come from old school wealth. They don't have family that are also wealthy. Most aren't top 25 school educated. They worked their asses off to get where they are and their kids deserve just as much, or more of a chance than your white rich kids playing the game.
I say all this as a white person myself. I am so sick of comparing races. We wiped out native Americans, slaved African Americans, and pay South Americans pennies for hard labor. And then we sit here and cry our white boys aren't getting into the colleges they deserve. Sickening.
Rich black parents are fairly new to our country because we basically held them down for centuries, and even decades after the civil rights movement. They don't come from old school wealth. They don't have family that are also wealthy. Most aren't top 25 school educated. They worked their asses off to get where they are and their kids deserve just as much, or more of a chance than your white rich kids playing the game.
I say all this as a white person myself. I am so sick of comparing races. We wiped out native Americans, slaved African Americans, and pay South Americans pennies for hard labor. And then we sit here and cry our white boys aren't getting into the colleges they deserve. Sickening.
Anonymous
05/10/2019 11:45
Subject: Re:Vox admissions article
Anonymous wrote:and race too , because you now that is so obviously your point, right?
Yeah, so what. Does that trigger you? The point is that it clearly demolishes the argument that "the SAT scores are only an indicator of your wealth". That is nonsense. even without considering that there are countless poor Asian kids who do well on the test.
You are so predictable, PP. No, I am not triggered. So funny that from all the observations presented by the author of the article, this is what you choose to harp on.
The UMC and the haves are protecting their status and are very happy to indulge in the non sensical game of college admissions to keep the rest of the riff raff out. Meritocracy is a myth. Luck is more like it. College admissions is a lottery that privileges the white and wealthy. I'd like to discuss early decisions and how it privileges the rich. I'd like to talk about how to fix the admissions system so it is fairer to the middle class and the lower class who don't already know the rules of the game, that a PP above said were mere "platitudes".
Anonymous
05/10/2019 11:29
Subject: Re:Vox admissions article
Anonymous wrote:
That graph is enough to disprove this idiotic statement in the Vox article
because family income and education level so reliably predict SAT scores
Because intelligent, educated people have intelligent, educated kids (and good jobs). Does this Admissions Director have an Education degree? His grasp on research, correlation and causation is weak.
Anonymous
05/10/2019 11:22
Subject: Re:Vox admissions article
Anonymous wrote:I am sick of this "Good SAT scores are correlated to wealth" nonsense propagated by the "woke left brigade"
Children of the richest black families ($200,000+ annual income) have SAT scores that are, on average, virtually equal to those of children of the poorest white families (sub-$20,000 annual income). Those same sub-$20k white children outscore, by 35 points, children of black families in the second-highest income bracket ($160k-$200k), and they outscore children of comparable poor black families (sub-$20k) by 180 points. For each income bracket, the black/white gap is around 150-180 points, or nearly one standard deviation. So basically, the lowest white group pretty much picks up where the highest black group leaves off, and achievement diverges from there
Source: The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education
Please also look at the large body of research on stereotype threat--a longstanding body of research (starting at the University of Michigan) that consistently shows that when black students are given a test they believe tests IQ (like SAT), they perform worse than white students. However, if they are given the exact same test but told it measures effort or some other construct the gap largely disappears. This effect has been shown to be extended in a variety of ways on a whole variety of stereotypes (e.g., white men jump lower on a test if they are reminded that whites don't jump as high as blacks, women perform worse if they are reminded of gender stereotypes about math, but not worse if they are told there are no differences, men perform worse on measures of reading/vocabulary if reminded of women's higher performance, than they do if they are not reminded or are told that men tend to do well on these kinds of tests, Asians perform better if they are told it is a test Asians tend to do well on etc.). One explanation for this is that part of one's cognitive energy is spent managing emotions about stereotypes and therefore the full brain is not paying attention to the task. Black students absorb so many racist messages that it is hard to approach any test of intelligence/academic skills without using some of their intelligence to tamp down negative emotions about it -- AND rigorous, double blind experiments consistently show this has impact on performance. And this isn't even getting at the cultural biases inherent in any tests...
Anonymous
05/10/2019 11:15
Subject: Re:Vox admissions article
and race too , because you now that is so obviously your point, right?
Yeah, so what. Does that trigger you? The point is that it clearly demolishes the argument that "the SAT scores are only an indicator of your wealth". That is nonsense. even without considering that there are countless poor Asian kids who do well on the test.
Anonymous
05/10/2019 11:08
Subject: Re:Vox admissions article
Anonymous wrote:
That graph is enough to disprove this idiotic statement in the Vox article
because family income and education level so reliably predict SAT scores
and race too , because you now that is so obviously your point, right?
Anonymous
05/10/2019 10:58
Subject: Re:Vox admissions article
That graph is enough to disprove this idiotic statement in the Vox article
because family income and education level so reliably predict SAT scores
Anonymous
05/10/2019 10:49
Subject: Re:Vox admissions article
I am sick of this "Good SAT scores are correlated to wealth" nonsense propagated by the "woke left brigade"
Children of the richest black families ($200,000+ annual income) have SAT scores that are, on average, virtually equal to those of children of the poorest white families (sub-$20,000 annual income). Those same sub-$20k white children outscore, by 35 points, children of black families in the second-highest income bracket ($160k-$200k), and they outscore children of comparable poor black families (sub-$20k) by 180 points. For each income bracket, the black/white gap is around 150-180 points, or nearly one standard deviation. So basically, the lowest white group pretty much picks up where the highest black group leaves off, and achievement diverges from there
Source: The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education
Children of the richest black families ($200,000+ annual income) have SAT scores that are, on average, virtually equal to those of children of the poorest white families (sub-$20,000 annual income). Those same sub-$20k white children outscore, by 35 points, children of black families in the second-highest income bracket ($160k-$200k), and they outscore children of comparable poor black families (sub-$20k) by 180 points. For each income bracket, the black/white gap is around 150-180 points, or nearly one standard deviation. So basically, the lowest white group pretty much picks up where the highest black group leaves off, and achievement diverges from there
Source: The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education
Anonymous
05/10/2019 10:30
Subject: Vox admissions article
Anonymous wrote:Please. So serious person should take anything on Vox seriously. Vox is a left wing hack job. It is the infowars/Brietbart of the left. This article made me laugh.
First the writer whines on about "How its unfair" that certain students have a leg up on "elite school admissions", then says "It really doesn't matter where you go".
The cognitive dissonance is pathetic. Either elite schools matter and hence admission is an ever spiraling zero sum game or elite schools don't matter and ED, SAT blah,blah doesn't matter, because there are enough colleges for everyone to go to and get a decent education in the US.
The vitriol against White and Asian kids is palpable and it is disgusting.
No, please refute his points if you don’t agree but don’t blame Vox or discount his experience and observations with generic “left winger” and hack job pouts.
Anonymous
05/10/2019 10:27
Subject: Vox admissions article
Please. So serious person should take anything on Vox seriously. Vox is a left wing hack job. It is the infowars/Brietbart of the left. This article made me laugh.
First the writer whines on about "How its unfair" that certain students have a leg up on "elite school admissions", then says "It really doesn't matter where you go".
The cognitive dissonance is pathetic. Either elite schools matter and hence admission is an ever spiraling zero sum game or elite schools don't matter and ED, SAT blah,blah doesn't matter, because there are enough colleges for everyone to go to and get a decent education in the US.
The vitriol against White and Asian kids is palpable and it is disgusting.
First the writer whines on about "How its unfair" that certain students have a leg up on "elite school admissions", then says "It really doesn't matter where you go".
The cognitive dissonance is pathetic. Either elite schools matter and hence admission is an ever spiraling zero sum game or elite schools don't matter and ED, SAT blah,blah doesn't matter, because there are enough colleges for everyone to go to and get a decent education in the US.
The vitriol against White and Asian kids is palpable and it is disgusting.