Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was a young mom - had my son at 24 - and it was TERRIBLE. Every single person thought they knew more than I did about my child (he's fully vaccinated, is now 10, and isn't a spoiled brat), his doctors talked down to me, my own doctors didn't believe when I had health problems related to delivery ("You're too young to be having that problem, only older mothers have that issue"; "Sorry you're still in pain after 5 months, I'm sure you'll feel better soon, call back in 2 weeks if you think you need to be seen by a doctor"; "PPD is pretty common, but your baby is completely perfect, why aren't you happy?"), and I was blamed for pretty much everything that ever went wrong. I had ZERO support, please let these mothers be. TELL THEM that they're doing a great job, LISTEN TO THEM when they tell you things. Don't be dismissive.

This. As a AA mother, I got this a lot too. Our family medicine practice has a few med student interns every year and there's always one who is ready to tell me how to care for my kids and acts as if this must be my first ever visit to a doctor and are shocked to learn I went to grad school. I'm sick of doctors playing down pain (no, I don't have a higher threshold for pain, med students, b/c I'm black) and I've never used a food stamp.

That said, my regular doctor is usually great.

I'm the pp you quoted - I'm white, was in law school when I had my son (unplanned, single, in an abusive relationship), grew up UMC, and was on food stamps at the time because I was in law school. Also was on medicaid. I'm sure all that contributed, but it sure would have been nice to have a pediatrician or doctor for myself who cared and thought to be supportive rather than dismissive.

I think its just easier to write everyone off.

I think this comes down to a combination of factors:
1) readily available unfiltered information online
2) poor science education in this country
3) poor media education /critical thinking
4) women having negative experiences with medical authorities
5) genuine limitations of our mainstream medical model that are not widely acknowledged

Health practitioners really need to acknowledge the problem on a holistic level and not demonize individual patients for their attitude. Otherwise it will become even more antagonistic and worsen the problem.

For ex., antibiotics. Clearly needed to prevent complications of strep in children. The patient refusing to give them does have some information on the negative implications of routine over-prescription but doesn’t know enough to ask the right questions about risks to make an informed judgment. Knows how to read online but not how to look for proper research. Understands one issue but overgeneralizes. And may have had an uninformed doctor treating her in the past. I’ve encountered many such doctors myself, and frankly having taught in top universities I would say that often the very top rung of students doesn’t go into clinical medicine but into research. Not every doctor is a great doctor.

It is not appropriate for your DH to discuss patients with you

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was a young mom - had my son at 24 - and it was TERRIBLE. Every single person thought they knew more than I did about my child (he's fully vaccinated, is now 10, and isn't a spoiled brat), his doctors talked down to me, my own doctors didn't believe when I had health problems related to delivery ("You're too young to be having that problem, only older mothers have that issue"; "Sorry you're still in pain after 5 months, I'm sure you'll feel better soon, call back in 2 weeks if you think you need to be seen by a doctor"; "PPD is pretty common, but your baby is completely perfect, why aren't you happy?"), and I was blamed for pretty much everything that ever went wrong. I had ZERO support, please let these mothers be. TELL THEM that they're doing a great job, LISTEN TO THEM when they tell you things. Don't be dismissive.

This. As a AA mother, I got this a lot too. Our family medicine practice has a few med student interns every year and there's always one who is ready to tell me how to care for my kids and acts as if this must be my first ever visit to a doctor and are shocked to learn I went to grad school. I'm sick of doctors playing down pain (no, I don't have a higher threshold for pain, med students, b/c I'm black) and I've never used a food stamp.

That said, my regular doctor is usually great.

I'm the pp you quoted - I'm white, was in law school when I had my son (unplanned, single, in an abusive relationship), grew up UMC, and was on food stamps at the time because I was in law school. Also was on medicaid. I'm sure all that contributed, but it sure would have been nice to have a pediatrician or doctor for myself who cared and thought to be supportive rather than dismissive.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are a health practitioner, and need to get over your judgment and generalities, or get out of your profession.

You were once a young, inexperienced person. Maybe you didn’t have the internet and media at your fingertips, which is a game changer for how ANYONE gains information.

Seems to me you and your husband aren’t good health educators, or very good with communicating with your clientele on their level. Of course, based on your dripping with judgement and disdain post, I’m not surprised that you’re that way in real life. They’re not listening and communicating with you honestly because they KNOW you think you’re better than them. Sooner or later, they’ll find other practices, which, the universe willing, they should.

I’ve found the anti-vaxer.

OP doesn’t sound any more judgmental than anyone else who has to deal with people with no education who think they know all.

Yes, even doctors are allowed to be frustrated with their clients. I’m
A teacher and I’m constantly annoyed with parents. It’s frustrating ing when people think they know best, as if my education and experience means nothing.

Can’t imagine how frustrated I’d be if I was a doctor and spent twice as long in school only to have some 22-year-old tell me I was wrong.

Nope. I’m a MUCH older mom, and children are vaccinated for even stuff that many people delay. I got boosters during pregnancy. I follow antibiotics to the T. I understand science. But then again, I was a nurse for years, and now work in a completely unrelated STEM field.

Here’s the thing. Your, and OP’s b is primarily to cOmmunicate and to EDUCATE. You both sound like you’re in the wrong field. No one is telling you you’re wrong, so you need to get TF over your ego, and figure out how to take these people to a higher level of wellness and understanding. It’s your JOB. FWIW, the age discrimination is just annoying, because any client (or patient or student or whatever) falls into the same category of now having the years of education that you do. You ask leading questions, yiu address their concerns, you educate based on that.

This is why med school (and entrance into other professions) should be based on other things purely than just grades. You’re dealing with real people, in real circumstance, at their weakest and most afraid. The fact that you can diagnose and prescribe does not make yiu a good practitioner. A better role may be research.

Anonymous wrote:I was a young mom - had my son at 24 - and it was TERRIBLE. Every single person thought they knew more than I did about my child (he's fully vaccinated, is now 10, and isn't a spoiled brat), his doctors talked down to me, my own doctors didn't believe when I had health problems related to delivery ("You're too young to be having that problem, only older mothers have that issue"; "Sorry you're still in pain after 5 months, I'm sure you'll feel better soon, call back in 2 weeks if you think you need to be seen by a doctor"; "PPD is pretty common, but your baby is completely perfect, why aren't you happy?"), and I was blamed for pretty much everything that ever went wrong. I had ZERO support, please let these mothers be. TELL THEM that they're doing a great job, LISTEN TO THEM when they tell you things. Don't be dismissive.

This. As a AA mother, I got this a lot too. Our family medicine practice has a few med student interns every year and there's always one who is ready to tell me how to care for my kids and acts as if this must be my first ever visit to a doctor and are shocked to learn I went to grad school. I'm sick of doctors playing down pain (no, I don't have a higher threshold for pain, med students, b/c I'm black) and I've never used a food stamp.

That said, my regular doctor is usually great.

Anonymous wrote:DH had a case where a 3-year-old kept coming in with strep. He kept prescribing antibiotics until he said they’d need to admit him because they just weren’t working. The mother then casually mentioned she’d never given him the antibiotic because she didn’t want him to get resistant to it.

Last night, 60 Minutes ran a story about the worldwide health crisis of "superbugs" becoming resistant to antibiotics. Why? Because doctors are over-prescribing anti-biotics, which are truly needed in only one-third of medical cases.

These young moms have a point.

-- An older mom

No! These young moms don’t understand the difference between a situation in which it is prudent to treat due to the possibility of serious complications, and when a wait and see approach is acceptable because of the low risk to the child.

See: rheumatic fever

DH had a case where a 3-year-old kept coming in with strep. He kept prescribing antibiotics until he said they’d need to admit him because they just weren’t working. The mother then casually mentioned she’d never given him the antibiotic because she didn’t want him to get resistant to it.

Last night, 60 Minutes ran a story about the worldwide health crisis of "superbugs" becoming resistant to antibiotics. Why? Because doctors are over-prescribing anti-biotics, which are truly needed in only one-third of medical cases.

These young moms have a point.

-- An older mom

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see it in wealthy educated women and think it is the pressure of motherhood. You have to Do It Right, whether to justify leaving the workforce or justify staying in. Things that make mom's job harder, especially, are important - like no epidural, making own baby food, no formula ever, etc.

And, also, people don't trust doctors. I'm sure OP is a good doctor but everyone has a story about a doctor who was wrong, rude, dismissive, pushing outdated advice, pushing expensive drugs, etc. We are encouraged to get second and third opinions on everything. So yes, in that environment you will get DIY internet research.

Yes, but...why keep going to the same doctor, then? If you don't believe what the doctor told you the first time, why take your kid back when they are sick? And this is coming from someone whose DH almost died by being dismissed by a doctor. I have also had serious health concerns waved off. In these instances - we've found other practitioners.

Also, yes to the "Do It Right". It manifests differently based on population. This is why some kids of color are obese (I'm AA and have experience with family on this one). Have you ever seen a child and wonder WHY the hell their parents would let them get that big? In my cousin's case, it was she was bragging about how much food she was buying (and could afford). The amount of food she was allowing her youngest child to eat was mind-boggling. But..in her mind, it was because she was being a "good mother".

An earlier poster pointed this out. Educated people with good jobs and good insurance can shop around for a doctor that agrees with their beliefs or they get along with. People with less or crummier insurance or in areas with limited options (e.g., rural) cannot.

Anonymous wrote:I see it in wealthy educated women and think it is the pressure of motherhood. You have to Do It Right, whether to justify leaving the workforce or justify staying in. Things that make mom's job harder, especially, are important - like no epidural, making own baby food, no formula ever, etc.

And, also, people don't trust doctors. I'm sure OP is a good doctor but everyone has a story about a doctor who was wrong, rude, dismissive, pushing outdated advice, pushing expensive drugs, etc. We are encouraged to get second and third opinions on everything. So yes, in that environment you will get DIY internet research.

Yes, but...why keep going to the same doctor, then? If you don't believe what the doctor told you the first time, why take your kid back when they are sick? And this is coming from someone whose DH almost died by being dismissed by a doctor. I have also had serious health concerns waved off. In these instances - we've found other practitioners.

Also, yes to the "Do It Right". It manifests differently based on population. This is why some kids of color are obese (I'm AA and have experience with family on this one). Have you ever seen a child and wonder WHY the hell their parents would let them get that big? In my cousin's case, it was she was bragging about how much food she was buying (and could afford). The amount of food she was allowing her youngest child to eat was mind-boggling. But..in her mind, it was because she was being a "good mother".

Anonymous wrote:OP, while I agree with you that there are a lot of ignorant people ignoring doctors' advice, it's hardly just white, young, single moms.

The measles outbreak in Brooklyn is primarily centered in the Hasidic Jewish community. While many of those women begin having children early, the vast majority of them are married. Whether they are white is a whole other issue we don't have to discuss here.

The Hasidic community functions like a cult. Which I think makes for an interesting comparison, because a lot of people who who develop this level of questioning of standard medical practices find like-minded communities online, and can develop a devotion to that line of thinking that is “cult-like”. It can be very “us against them”, and provides a sense of community for these young mothers. Parenting can be very lonely, and in general I think our culture often lacks structured communities, so people go online to feel connected and build a network.

Plenty of older, educated, rich moms are antivaxxers. The difference is they have good insurance and good financial means and connections (and usually live in big cities with lots of options for everything) so they can shop around for doctors that support their stances the same way they can shop around for schooling that supports them (expensive schools that follow the Waldorf philosophy, for example).


The ones who don't have the same level of health coversage and financial means don't get to shop around as much for doctors, so instead they do their own research and argue with the provider.

Anonymous wrote:I see it in wealthy educated women and think it is the pressure of motherhood. You have to Do It Right, whether to justify leaving the workforce or justify staying in. Things that make mom's job harder, especially, are important - like no epidural, making own baby food, no formula ever, etc.

And, also, people don't trust doctors. I'm sure OP is a good doctor but everyone has a story about a doctor who was wrong, rude, dismissive, pushing outdated advice, pushing expensive drugs, etc. We are encouraged to get second and third opinions on everything. So yes, in that environment you will get DIY internet research.

+1 It's the mommy martyr thing, look at the posts here about how you don't love your kids if you don't exclusively breastfeed or if you ever leave them in someone else's care.

I agree with you OP, and it’s older mothers too. The ignorance of it is astounding and alarming.

I'm not a health practitioner, nor young, nor ever refused medical advice. I'm 27, had my child at 29. So take what I say knowing this context.

I think it's combination of things. People are more resistant to doctors now because of the abundance of anti-doctor media out there, doctors are portrayed as bought and sold by big pharma, and people are less likely to believe them.

People think they know better because they've been dismissed in the past or heard about people who've been dismissed by their doctors and were right. Trust is a major issue.

I'm sure younger moms who are under a lot of stress, possibly untreated PPD and maybe even abusive relationships are exercising control in the only way they can, treating their kids, so that also plays a role.

It doesn't help that most of us take hours trying to book an appointment, then waiting to be seen, to be barely seen by the pediatrician for a 10 minute routine exam. There's no time to build a relationship to trust the doctor. It's the nature of the beast, I get it, but it doesn't help.