Anonymous wrote:I think it's semantics. I was very clear with my husband that I wanted to marry him. But it was important to me that he actively decide that he wanted this too. So I waited for him but it was like waiting for him to be in the same place that he knew I was in. I think for a lot of couples it is not out of thin air, just that women tend to know first and then the guy has to decide he's on board too.

This, but I think it’s more than semanotice and still indicates troubling gender relationships. For most couples I know, the woman wanted to get married before the man, so she indicated this in subtle or not subtle ways—which was essentially like asking him to marry her. When he was ready to say yes, he then proposed to her. It’s not generally a real question in that the conclusion is foregone. But I find the whole thing icky. And I’m not some new finagled millennial. I’m almost 50, and I’ve always found it icky.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like the idea of a man proposing. Don’t care what others do. But there are some of us that like convention, and like traditional roles. We shouldn’t be judged anymore than people who don’t.

I disagree. There are conventions that are extremely sexist and I think it is important to single them out. Like asking permission to the woman’s father, for example.

+1 I think society has progressed a great deal in the past 20 years, and I agree this is an antiquated tradition that reinforces sexism. You are worthy as a woman if some dude decides you're worthy of a proposal? Oh and your worth is determined by the size and value of your ring? Especially if it's all carefully curated for public consumption on social media? No thanks. There are plenty of ways to be loving and romantic in a relationship without this particular tradition.

Your worth as a woman isn't determined by any one dude wanting to propose. However, the dude's desire to marry you is definitely determined by whether or not he proposes. That's all there's to it.

Anonymous wrote:Serious question! Why should a woman wait for the man to propose? If she’s ready to make that next step, why can’t she propose to him?

Because if a man doesn't propose, he doesn't want to marry you. That's why you can't propose to him. Gender norms are there for a reason.

Anonymous wrote:It is a nice tradition

I would say no if a woman proposed to me even if I was planning on proposing to her - it is denying me a moment that is special for all men

“For all men”? Uh, no.

Anonymous wrote:I think it's semantics. I was very clear with my husband that I wanted to marry him. But it was important to me that he actively decide that he wanted this too. So I waited for him but it was like waiting for him to be in the same place that he knew I was in. I think for a lot of couples it is not out of thin air, just that women tend to know first and then the guy has to decide he's on board too.

This is the tough part. There is signaling by the woman that she wants to marry the guy, but there isn’t necessarily signaling by the guy that he is serious about wanting to get married (not in a vague someday kind of way) until he proposes if he is the type to go for the surprise. I don’t if that’s because it’s tradition for the guy to ask that he doesn’t need to make his intentions clear until that moment or because the guy’s intention aren’t certain, woman want the guy to propose to know that he’s really all in. Though this makes me wonder for a same sex couple how they get to the marriage decision without gender defined traditions.


Anyway, I’m torn on this tradition. While I followed the script to some extent, I was also clear early on that if we didn’t know for sure by a certain point, that we needed to move on. I didn’t want the Harry Met Sally situation where you date 10 years and breakup for him to marry the next woman within 2 years and “when he said he didn’t want to get married, what he meant was he didn’t want to marry me”. I’ve seen guys use “the proposal” as a power trip, like the more the woman is pressuring, the more he delays - like a game of keep away. And this is a couple that has been dating for many years.

It’s easier.

The proposing part rubs me the less the wrong way than the ring.

The need for one party to prove they are worth love by how expensive of a ring they bought is so sexist and old. It is mostly perpetuated by diamond companies. Let me hold this piece of jewelry out in front of me so you can appraise its worth and determine if I spent enough money on you to be allowed to be part of your life.

As soon as I see fawning over a ring or connecting the guy to the ring (what a great catch, looks like you found a good one, oh he treats you right etc) I lose all respect for that woman.

In this day and age, I don't think either party should sit pining, waiting for a proposal. I have zero empathy for women who sit waiting for years. Have a conversation about whether or not you want to be together, make that decision together. If someone wants the tradition of mouthing the words, will you marry me - then go for it.

I think it's semantics. I was very clear with my husband that I wanted to marry him. But it was important to me that he actively decide that he wanted this too. So I waited for him but it was like waiting for him to be in the same place that he knew I was in. I think for a lot of couples it is not out of thin air, just that women tend to know first and then the guy has to decide he's on board too.

It is a nice tradition

I would say no if a woman proposed to me even if I was planning on proposing to her - it is denying me a moment that is special for all men

I can’t believe this conversation is still taking place. What is this, the 1950s?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like the idea of a man proposing. Don’t care what others do. But there are some of us that like convention, and like traditional roles. We shouldn’t be judged anymore than people who don’t.

I disagree. There are conventions that are extremely sexist and I think it is important to single them out. Like asking permission to the woman’s father, for example.

I like this. Again, we can respectfully disagree. But this also has religious roots for a lot of people. It’s often cherry picked and criticized, but I see it as a sign of respect.

I would not marry someone who asked for my father's permission. I'm the only one who needs to agree. My dad's reaction probably would have been "no", because it's disrespectful to me.

In some cultures, giving the thumbs up sign means eff you. Guess what? Both interpretations can be accurate, depending on context.

Same thing here with this example. You find asking your dad to be disrespectful. I think it’s a sign of respect and I value my father’s approval. I would never agree to an arranged marriage. But I would not judge a culture where this is the norm.

The issue isn’t the difference. It’s the judgment in thinking one is better than another. It’s not better or worse. Its different

Discussions like this are good for moving the needle, but I always have concern when it’s at the expense of others who are quite happy and shouldn’t be judged for having different views around the meaningfulness and purpose.

We aren’t resisting your right to nonconformity - but why must you try to shame our conformity?

What about the gender roles that ENJOY and THRIVE in the “stereotypes”? Martha Stewart thrives in her purpose as a sterwotypical woman. So did Emily Post. Why should we be attacked for liking girly things, and tradition?

It’s fine if you want all of your daughters being required to register for a draft, to fight in combat, propose and break through glass ceilings. It’s beautiful. Thank you for your boldness and kick ass approach to creating new paths for a new emerging generation. It is a new norm that is worthy of support and respect.

Just don’t make this progress at the expense of other daughters who DONT want to fight in combat, propose, or fight injustice. Some of us like making cupcakes for your nanny to pick up from the bakery. Please support and respect us too.

You can have and respect both differences, in traditional vs non traditional roles, for TRUE equality. Changing the status quo doesn’t mean you attach a stigma to women that still like it. And there are many of us that do!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like the idea of a man proposing. Don’t care what others do. But there are some of us that like convention, and like traditional roles. We shouldn’t be judged anymore than people who don’t.

I disagree. There are conventions that are extremely sexist and I think it is important to single them out. Like asking permission to the woman’s father, for example.

I like this. Again, we can respectfully disagree. But this also has religious roots for a lot of people. It’s often cherry picked and criticized, but I see it as a sign of respect.

I would not marry someone who asked for my father's permission. I'm the only one who needs to agree. My dad's reaction probably would have been "no", because it's disrespectful to me.

They don't.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like the idea of a man proposing. Don’t care what others do. But there are some of us that like convention, and like traditional roles. We shouldn’t be judged anymore than people who don’t.

I disagree. There are conventions that are extremely sexist and I think it is important to single them out. Like asking permission to the woman’s father, for example.

+1 I think society has progressed a great deal in the past 20 years, and I agree this is an antiquated tradition that reinforces sexism. You are worthy as a woman if some dude decides you're worthy of a proposal? Oh and your worth is determined by the size and value of your ring? Especially if it's all carefully curated for public consumption on social media? No thanks. There are plenty of ways to be loving and romantic in a relationship without this particular tradition.

This is all wrong and s very subjective criticism. Worth and value has nothing to do with it. There are formalities in a lot of cultures still where it isn’t fair to judge the difference. The Royal wedding had tons of formalities that all the world loved. Smaller, private subcultures have fomdliyird that are lived too. It’s okay to disagree, but charring a practice you have limited knowledge of without true examination isn’t wise.