Anonymous
03/23/2019 12:53
Subject: Why are DCPS School Modernizations/Expansions More Expensive Than Elsewhere?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Small footprints/acreage = underground parking, creative fields/playgrounds
+1
My architect family members say that underground parking costs out at $20K per spot.
DCPS officially is not building parking anymore. In Ward 3, Mary Cheh got DCPS to put in off street parking st Janney and Murch. Now John Eaton is finally getting a renovation (the last in line in Ward 3),and there will be no parking. The HSA actually begs parents to give their visitor parking placards to school staff, but then school neighbors can’t find parking themselves. So this short term fix will end. Cheh’s answer to Eaton staff was to provide information about Metro.
It is not smart to make blanket statement like that. That is what gets politicians in trouble. You say, "we aren't doing X anymore, every again, no way" and then an architect and engineer whisper in your ear, "excuse me, in order to accomplish this project and comply with currents laws and zoning requirements, we have to do X."
If Eaton doubles the square footage of the building, zoning laws will require them to have parking too.
Anonymous
03/23/2019 12:42
Subject: Why are DCPS School Modernizations/Expansions More Expensive Than Elsewhere?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Small footprints/acreage = underground parking, creative fields/playgrounds
+1
My architect family members say that underground parking costs out at $20K per spot.
DCPS officially is not building parking anymore. In Ward 3, Mary Cheh got DCPS to put in off street parking st Janney and Murch. Now John Eaton is finally getting a renovation (the last in line in Ward 3),and there will be no parking. The HSA actually begs parents to give their visitor parking placards to school staff, but then school neighbors can’t find parking themselves. So this short term fix will end. Cheh’s answer to Eaton staff was to provide information about Metro.
Anonymous
03/23/2019 12:37
Subject: Why are DCPS School Modernizations/Expansions More Expensive Than Elsewhere?
Anonymous wrote:DC has much stricter requirements to use local/minority owned firms. Even if they are not nearly has qualified as a larger design construction firms. I work in contracting and I see this all the time across all fields.small firms are slower to respond to changes, cannot absorb costs, poor at cost estimating, lots of modifications and change orders. all adds up to major delays and doubling of costs. its a really dumb way to do business. and to the previous poster, underground parking can cost a LOT more than 20k per space, can easily run 30-50k depending on location and number of levels underground.
Most of these firms are simply associated to meet the DC requirements and to help the prime contractor get the contract. It helps assure that “community” businesses with local political connections get a piece of the action. But they don’t do much of the real work. Given their competency and bench depth challenges, that’s actually a good thing.
Anonymous
03/23/2019 12:32
Subject: Why are DCPS School Modernizations/Expansions More Expensive Than Elsewhere?
Anonymous wrote:Everything is done differently in DC.
It’s simple: incompetence and corruption. Duke Ellington is Ex. A.
Anonymous
03/21/2019 16:18
Subject: Why are DCPS School Modernizations/Expansions More Expensive Than Elsewhere?
Anonymous wrote:DC has much stricter requirements to use local/minority owned firms. Even if they are not nearly has qualified as a larger design construction firms. I work in contracting and I see this all the time across all fields.small firms are slower to respond to changes, cannot absorb costs, poor at cost estimating, lots of modifications and change orders. all adds up to major delays and doubling of costs. its a really dumb way to do business. and to the previous poster, underground parking can cost a LOT more than 20k per space, can easily run 30-50k depending on location and number of levels underground.
This is all correct- someone who also sees some of these effects because of the DC hiring rules.
Anonymous
03/21/2019 13:38
Subject: Re:Why are DCPS School Modernizations/Expansions More Expensive Than Elsewhere?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:In 1999 NCS renovated an old field house to create a new athletic facility. Most of the 83,000 sq. ft. building is underground, and the project included a parking garage. It had many of the hallmarks that fold here are claiming raise costs, such as ANC battles. In fact, this one had a zoning board dispute and legal challenges from the neighbors. The NCS project was a $20 million building, which would be $30 million in today's dollars.
As a DC taxpayer I really don't understand these $150 million school renovations. One of the many downsides of the costs is that schools in desperate need of facilities improvements wait for years because it takes so long to budget these large amounts.
Also, the ANC's are advisory; it's in the name. No one in DC government needs to listen to them. As long as proper public notice is given, that box is checked.
Obviously, a field house is not the same as a full high school including a gym. DCPS isn't building $150 million gyms.
Turning a field house into a gym is a lot less expensive than taking a 1930s structure down to the bare bones (like no walls standing) and then trying to architect and then build classrooms for 600-900 students. Apples to oranges. And I would contend that there is no way that NCS project would cost only $30m now...
Anonymous
03/21/2019 11:21
Subject: Why are DCPS School Modernizations/Expansions More Expensive Than Elsewhere?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:DC has much stricter requirements to use local/minority owned firms. Even if they are not nearly has qualified as a larger design construction firms. I work in contracting and I see this all the time across all fields.small firms are slower to respond to changes, cannot absorb costs, poor at cost estimating, lots of modifications and change orders. all adds up to major delays and doubling of costs. its a really dumb way to do business. and to the previous poster, underground parking can cost a LOT more than 20k per space, can easily run 30-50k depending on location and number of levels underground.
I love when someone with some actual knowledge chimes in.
And local firms...have a much more clear motivation and means to funnel part of those incredibly-high budgets to reward those local politicians who so kindly enable them.
Anonymous
03/21/2019 10:54
Subject: Re:Why are DCPS School Modernizations/Expansions More Expensive Than Elsewhere?
Anonymous wrote:In 1999 NCS renovated an old field house to create a new athletic facility. Most of the 83,000 sq. ft. building is underground, and the project included a parking garage. It had many of the hallmarks that fold here are claiming raise costs, such as ANC battles. In fact, this one had a zoning board dispute and legal challenges from the neighbors. The NCS project was a $20 million building, which would be $30 million in today's dollars.
As a DC taxpayer I really don't understand these $150 million school renovations. One of the many downsides of the costs is that schools in desperate need of facilities improvements wait for years because it takes so long to budget these large amounts.
Also, the ANC's are advisory; it's in the name. No one in DC government needs to listen to them. As long as proper public notice is given, that box is checked.
Obviously, a field house is not the same as a full high school including a gym. DCPS isn't building $150 million gyms.
Anonymous
03/21/2019 09:45
Subject: Why are DCPS School Modernizations/Expansions More Expensive Than Elsewhere?
Anonymous wrote:DC has much stricter requirements to use local/minority owned firms. Even if they are not nearly has qualified as a larger design construction firms. I work in contracting and I see this all the time across all fields.small firms are slower to respond to changes, cannot absorb costs, poor at cost estimating, lots of modifications and change orders. all adds up to major delays and doubling of costs. its a really dumb way to do business. and to the previous poster, underground parking can cost a LOT more than 20k per space, can easily run 30-50k depending on location and number of levels underground.
I love when someone with some actual knowledge chimes in.
Anonymous
03/21/2019 09:45
Subject: Why are DCPS School Modernizations/Expansions More Expensive Than Elsewhere?
Anonymous wrote:DC has much stricter requirements to use local/minority owned firms. Even if they are not nearly has qualified as a larger design construction firms. I work in contracting and I see this all the time across all fields.small firms are slower to respond to changes, cannot absorb costs, poor at cost estimating, lots of modifications and change orders. all adds up to major delays and doubling of costs. its a really dumb way to do business. and to the previous poster, underground parking can cost a LOT more than 20k per space, can easily run 30-50k depending on location and number of levels underground.
This! All of this is excellent summary of the biggest driver of costs (though some of the other things mentioned in earlier posts have some impact as well.)
Anonymous
03/21/2019 09:42
Subject: Why are DCPS School Modernizations/Expansions More Expensive Than Elsewhere?
DC has much stricter requirements to use local/minority owned firms. Even if they are not nearly has qualified as a larger design construction firms. I work in contracting and I see this all the time across all fields.small firms are slower to respond to changes, cannot absorb costs, poor at cost estimating, lots of modifications and change orders. all adds up to major delays and doubling of costs. its a really dumb way to do business. and to the previous poster, underground parking can cost a LOT more than 20k per space, can easily run 30-50k depending on location and number of levels underground.
Anonymous
03/21/2019 09:09
Subject: Re:Why are DCPS School Modernizations/Expansions More Expensive Than Elsewhere?
Anonymous wrote:In 1999 NCS renovated an old field house to create a new athletic facility. Most of the 83,000 sq. ft. building is underground, and the project included a parking garage. It had many of the hallmarks that fold here are claiming raise costs, such as ANC battles. In fact, this one had a zoning board dispute and legal challenges from the neighbors. The NCS project was a $20 million building, which would be $30 million in today's dollars.
As a DC taxpayer I really don't understand these $150 million school renovations. One of the many downsides of the costs is that schools in desperate need of facilities improvements wait for years because it takes so long to budget these large amounts.
Also, the ANC's are advisory; it's in the name. No one in DC government needs to listen to them. As long as proper public notice is given, that box is checked.
Yes, ANC's are advisory and the government does not have to listen, in theory. That doesn't mean that community concerns don't matter at all. In fact they factor in all kinds of decisions from noise to construction to design.
Anonymous
03/20/2019 13:40
Subject: Re:Why are DCPS School Modernizations/Expansions More Expensive Than Elsewhere?
Anonymous wrote:OP: Some of these firms who have achieved cost overruns continue to be hired by the city.
The name Perkins Eastman comes up as one of these. Why isn't there more pushback from
the public, city council when these same firms are selected over the years?
That's just an architecture firm, they don't drive the cost or oversee anything related to the overall project budget. Fundamentally it comes down to awful mismanagement by DGS, and the various hiring rules (CBE, First Source, etc) which often mean there are only 1 or 2 contractors/subcontractors who meet all of the requirements. They know they have little to no competition (and also contribute to the Mayor, let's be honest) and can soak the project because of it.
If you look at charter renovations of old DCPS buildings they are half the cost of the ones managed by DGS.
Anonymous
03/20/2019 13:07
Subject: Re:Why are DCPS School Modernizations/Expansions More Expensive Than Elsewhere?
In 1999 NCS renovated an old field house to create a new athletic facility. Most of the 83,000 sq. ft. building is underground, and the project included a parking garage. It had many of the hallmarks that fold here are claiming raise costs, such as ANC battles. In fact, this one had a zoning board dispute and legal challenges from the neighbors. The NCS project was a $20 million building, which would be $30 million in today's dollars.
As a DC taxpayer I really don't understand these $150 million school renovations. One of the many downsides of the costs is that schools in desperate need of facilities improvements wait for years because it takes so long to budget these large amounts.
Also, the ANC's are advisory; it's in the name. No one in DC government needs to listen to them. As long as proper public notice is given, that box is checked.
As a DC taxpayer I really don't understand these $150 million school renovations. One of the many downsides of the costs is that schools in desperate need of facilities improvements wait for years because it takes so long to budget these large amounts.
Also, the ANC's are advisory; it's in the name. No one in DC government needs to listen to them. As long as proper public notice is given, that box is checked.
Anonymous
03/20/2019 09:48
Subject: Why are DCPS School Modernizations/Expansions More Expensive Than Elsewhere?
Anonymous wrote:Neighbors also factor in this. The ANC approval process can make adjustments based on community needs more expensive. Also the costs to operate swing space during renovation is almost always included in the construction price. See the cost of Duke Ellington, for example, which had not only one but two swing space renovations embedded in the overall cost.
This is a good point. You'd need to look to see what costs are included in the reported total to know if you are comparing apples to apples. Also, as others have pointed out, many renovations are trying to preserve historic buildings, or trying to maximize space usage on smaller lots, or are meeting the standards for LEED certifications. And there are requirements for using union labor and local firms. Community demands can also drive up the cost. It's also possible that the modernizations are more extensive than the equivalent in VA, if needed repairs and updates weren't done when they were needed.