My parents stayed together "for the children" while we were in middle and high school. Now that I'm older (50s) and more distance on it, I can see that it was a choice made with our best interests at heart. They didn't want us to have to change schools or do joint custody. They didn't want the hassle of it all. And they didn't want to sell the house in the 80s recession.

Did it kind of suck to see them in a loveless marriage? Sure. But divorce sucks too, in a different way. They were adults and made that choice in the best interest of the family as a whole. They weren't living a lie, they didn't teach us anything bad about marriage. They taught us to be grown-ups and make a mature, considered decision. To get through tough times in a responsible way. After we all left home, they divorced, and I was fine with it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What positive steps are you taking to improve the marriage?

Date night?

Fun family activities?

Travel?

How's your sex life?

OP. Sex life is poor. There are certain things that I discovered about my wife after getting married that make it difficult for me to be physical. For example, I've discovered some strong racist views that were invisible during the brief period that we dated. This ugliness inside of her makes it hard for me to feel much of anything for her. My goal is just to be a good Dad. I am unable to be a good husband. I do not cheat on her. But I can't love her.

Why did you marry after dating only briefly?

Anonymous wrote:What positive steps are you taking to improve the marriage?

Date night?

Fun family activities?

Travel?

How's your sex life?

OP. Sex life is poor. There are certain things that I discovered about my wife after getting married that make it difficult for me to be physical. For example, I've discovered some strong racist views that were invisible during the brief period that we dated. This ugliness inside of her makes it hard for me to feel much of anything for her. My goal is just to be a good Dad. I am unable to be a good husband. I do not cheat on her. But I can't love her.

There are a lot of jaded people leading unhappy married and divorced lives on this forum.

I'm going to put my two cents in here even though I divorced so I don't meet the criteria. I think divorcing when you've got maybe 5 years left till your kids graduate from high school and leave for college is stupid. That's what happened in my situation. If I'd had my way we'd have just stayed together and then parted ways. Instead, we have to co-parent closely for those years, which means that you will have to deal with your ex and his same stupid shit for those years, only with more expenses (because two households), harder logistics (because two households), and possibly a stupid girlfriend in the mix who backs him up in his stupidity. If you have a child/children, you can divorce but you won't be rid of the ex until the kids leave for school. You think that after the divorce your life will become more peaceful without his nagging and complaints, but he's still there. All that changes is that now he nags and complains about when he gets the kids, or whether he should have to pay for summer camp.

Now, if one of you is having an affair and wants to run off and marry the other person and live happily ever after with that AP, then divorce makes sense. Otherwise, just gut it out and save you and your kids the horror of having to sit through the "mommy and daddy have decided we should live apart" conversation.

What positive steps are you taking to improve the marriage?

Date night?

Fun family activities?

Travel?

How's your sex life?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A friend of mine grew up in a home like that. Parents who clearly hated one another but stayed together until the youngest child (of five) turned 18. All the kids (currently between mid twenties and early 40s in age) are independent adults with solid careers but all are unable to maintain long term relationships. Not a single one is married (and several want to be). Not so sure the parents did them a service by modeling that kind of family life.

The thing is, you don't get a second chance at "modeling". It's not like if you divorce but then get a second husband you love the kids will have a good family life "modeled" for them (unless perhaps they are too young to remember the divorce). What they will have "modeled" for them is that maybe if you switch around you will get lucky after leaving some wreckage in your wake. There are no "modeling" benefits for second marriages, happy or not, after the kids have gone through a divorce.

Huh? Are you really saying that no parents that have remarried demonstrate happy, loving relationships to their children? To the contrary, if the bio parents were dysfunctional, then the second marriage, if loving, demonstrates what a healthy relationship can be. If the parents don’t remarry, aren’t the kids left with the only image of parential relationships being that of their parents failed marriage?

If the second marriage is as bad or worse, you still have the hassles of divorce and the financial impact and the loss of the original family. There is no guarantee that parents will be happier after divorce. It is a crapshoot.

You aren't always modeling what you think you are modeling. Sometimes it is how to give up when things get tough, how to walk away from your vows, and how to have a second failed marriage.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A friend of mine grew up in a home like that. Parents who clearly hated one another but stayed together until the youngest child (of five) turned 18. All the kids (currently between mid twenties and early 40s in age) are independent adults with solid careers but all are unable to maintain long term relationships. Not a single one is married (and several want to be). Not so sure the parents did them a service by modeling that kind of family life.

The thing is, you don't get a second chance at "modeling". It's not like if you divorce but then get a second husband you love the kids will have a good family life "modeled" for them (unless perhaps they are too young to remember the divorce). What they will have "modeled" for them is that maybe if you switch around you will get lucky after leaving some wreckage in your wake. There are no "modeling" benefits for second marriages, happy or not, after the kids have gone through a divorce.

Huh? Are you really saying that no parents that have remarried demonstrate happy, loving relationships to their children? To the contrary, if the bio parents were dysfunctional, then the second marriage, if loving, demonstrates what a healthy relationship can be. If the parents don’t remarry, aren’t the kids left with the only image of parential relationships being that of their parents failed marriage?

Anonymous wrote:A friend of mine grew up in a home like that. Parents who clearly hated one another but stayed together until the youngest child (of five) turned 18. All the kids (currently between mid twenties and early 40s in age) are independent adults with solid careers but all are unable to maintain long term relationships. Not a single one is married (and several want to be). Not so sure the parents did them a service by modeling that kind of family life.

The thing is, you don't get a second chance at "modeling". It's not like if you divorce but then get a second husband you love the kids will have a good family life "modeled" for them (unless perhaps they are too young to remember the divorce). What they will have "modeled" for them is that maybe if you switch around you will get lucky after leaving some wreckage in your wake. There are no "modeling" benefits for second marriages, happy or not, after the kids have gone through a divorce.

OP, you should read The Unexpected Legacy Of Divorce: A 25 Year Landmark Study by Judth Wallerstein. Your marriage is the type of marriage worth keeping together for the sake of the children.

Anonymous wrote:A friend of mine grew up in a home like that. Parents who clearly hated one another but stayed together until the youngest child (of five) turned 18. All the kids (currently between mid twenties and early 40s in age) are independent adults with solid careers but all are unable to maintain long term relationships. Not a single one is married (and several want to be). Not so sure the parents did them a service by modeling that kind of family life.

yikes.

There are different degrees of unhappiness...
There are couples who "hate" each other. that's toxic. screw that. divorce. kids don't deserve it.
Then, there are just couples who have gotten complacent or no longer feel in-love, or they live friendly but separate lives. Perhaps those are marriages worth fixing and fighting.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is the marriage you are modeling and the values that keep you there what you would want your kids to internalize?

That's the question I wish my mom had asked herself during my childhood...

SO much this. Except that both of my parents should have asked themselves this question. It's not solely my mom's fault.

And if there's a lot of conflict, or you don't get along to the point that it affects your ability to parent your children effectively, think very carefully about staying together. Kids know what's going on, and can be harmed from being raised in the context of a lousy marriage. Yeah, divorce is a PITA, but so are parents who are miserable together.

As someone who rode out a rough patch and has a better marriage now, I would say yes. Believing in others, not giving up easily, having patience, prioritizing family, taking a long-term view, forgiving others and seeking forgiveness for my own failures, are very much the values I want to show my kids. We all benefit immensely in the long term from not giving up when things are hard.

I believe that adults can control what comes out of their own mouths. There is no reason you need to fight in front of the children. If that is the problem, stop doing it. Grow up and control yourselves. Some things are not within our control but you can choose what you say with your own mouth.

That's completely reasonable, although I would say it depends on the length of the rough patch. I know many couples whose marriages have been miserable since their first child was born, and refer to it as a "rough patch" even though that child is five years or older. We do benefit from taking a long-term perspective, but we also benefit when we don't remain unhappy for years in the hopes that someday it will all be worth it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A man who is a great dad and an indifferent spouse? This marriage can be turned around.

An indifferent dad and an indifferent spouse? RUN.

An indifferent dad and an attentive spouse? He is looking at your money. RUN.

OP here. Our situation: two really great parents who simply don't have much in common with each other. We each recognize that the marriage was a mistake, but we are committed to the kids.

This describes quite a few couples I know. Most of the 2nd marriages I see are worse. No kids in common and not really a family unit. They don't see their grand-kids much because of the divorce. Really messes things up imo. I lucked out because I was determined to stay married, so was my husband. We can do things together or separate and it works.

Maybe you have more in common than you think?

A friend of mine grew up in a home like that. Parents who clearly hated one another but stayed together until the youngest child (of five) turned 18. All the kids (currently between mid twenties and early 40s in age) are independent adults with solid careers but all are unable to maintain long term relationships. Not a single one is married (and several want to be). Not so sure the parents did them a service by modeling that kind of family life.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is the marriage you are modeling and the values that keep you there what you would want your kids to internalize?

That's the question I wish my mom had asked herself during my childhood...

SO much this. Except that both of my parents should have asked themselves this question. It's not solely my mom's fault.

And if there's a lot of conflict, or you don't get along to the point that it affects your ability to parent your children effectively, think very carefully about staying together. Kids know what's going on, and can be harmed from being raised in the context of a lousy marriage. Yeah, divorce is a PITA, but so are parents who are miserable together.

As someone who rode out a rough patch and has a better marriage now, I would say yes. Believing in others, not giving up easily, having patience, prioritizing family, taking a long-term view, forgiving others and seeking forgiveness for my own failures, are very much the values I want to show my kids. We all benefit immensely in the long term from not giving up when things are hard.

I believe that adults can control what comes out of their own mouths. There is no reason you need to fight in front of the children. If that is the problem, stop doing it. Grow up and control yourselves. Some things are not within our control but you can choose what you say with your own mouth.

Right, and when one spouse refuses to stop insulting, belittling, and swearing at their spouse, it’s irresponsible to stay.

I wouldn't put up with that. My first husband had some anger issues and I would promptly walk out of the room. Until you divorce I'd try that. We had a amicable divorce and used one lawyer, but that was one of the reasons. He was also one of those idiots that would insult my degree, putting his over mine. And other insults I recall. Funny I ended up with more money, and he's not doing so well...to say the least!