Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: If people have to wait 15 years to enter legally, many won't.

This made me think of how it used to be with digital music. Music companies wanted you to buy the whole album for $16, so they made it real tough to download music. When Apple and the music companies finally came up with a system where you could buy individual songs for $1 or $2, piracy dropped dramatically. You don't have to open the borders any more than you have to make music free. But you have to make the system reasonable.

Plenty of people already wait 15+ years to enter legally: the brothers and sisters who are sponsored by their US citizen siblings.

Spouses of green card holders have to wait THREE YEARS to join their husbands and wives. Yet someone can storm the border and insist on their right to stay right now.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: If people have to wait 15 years to enter legally, many won't.

This made me think of how it used to be with digital music. Music companies wanted you to buy the whole album for $16, so they made it real tough to download music. When Apple and the music companies finally came up with a system where you could buy individual songs for $1 or $2, piracy dropped dramatically. You don't have to open the borders any more than you have to make music free. But you have to make the system reasonable.

You say this like the right to immigrate is an entitlement. It really isn't. If Congress decided tomorrow that all they wanted was family-based and employment-based immigration, they'd be within their right to do so.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: If people have to wait 15 years to enter legally, many won't.

This made me think of how it used to be with digital music. Music companies wanted you to buy the whole album for $16, so they made it real tough to download music. When Apple and the music companies finally came up with a system where you could buy individual songs for $1 or $2, piracy dropped dramatically. You don't have to open the borders any more than you have to make music free. But you have to make the system reasonable.

Plenty of people already wait 15+ years to enter legally: the brothers and sisters who are sponsored by their US citizen siblings.

I note none of these bills address white-collar immigration. It's like people say "immigration" and all they see in their heads is "poor, brown, illiterate people". Way to flip a finger to the most productive members of the potential immigrant mass.

Where are the provisions to attract and retain white-collar immigration? Where are the provisions to make it easier for educated segment to work and stay?

Anonymous wrote:Didn’t McCain try in 2005, and the Republicans scuttle that effort as well?

I seem to remember Dubya trying and Limbaugh going apoplectic.

Anonymous wrote: If people have to wait 15 years to enter legally, many won't.

This made me think of how it used to be with digital music. Music companies wanted you to buy the whole album for $16, so they made it real tough to download music. When Apple and the music companies finally came up with a system where you could buy individual songs for $1 or $2, piracy dropped dramatically. You don't have to open the borders any more than you have to make music free. But you have to make the system reasonable.

Anonymous wrote:Didn’t McCain try in 2005, and the Republicans scuttle that effort as well?

I think that was a bipartisan effort with Kennedy? Interesting tidbits about this:

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jan/15/fact-sheet-immigration/

HIGHLIGHTS OF McCAIN'S 2006 BILL

(Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act)

The bill was incorporated into another measure that passed the Senate but then stalled.

Hillary Clinton: Supports a path to citizenship similar to the McCain-Kennedy proposal and voted in 2006 for a bill that incorporated major aspects of the plan. Would toughen penalties for employers who hire illegal immigrants. Voted for the Mexican border fence.

Barack Obama: Supports a path to citizenship similar to McCain-Kennedy and voted for the 2006 bill incorporating major aspects of the plan. Voted for the Mexican border fence. Would toughen penalties on firms that hire illegal immigrants. Calls for promoting economic development with Mexico as a way to decrease illegal immigration

Rudy Giuliani: Would finish the border fence and maintain a border patrol of 20,000 agents. Supports McCain's path to citizenship. Would create an ID card and national database of noncitizens. Also would track aliens who overstay visas and implement a "check out" system. Would deport all illegal aliens who commit a felony and require all immigrants who seek permanent status to learn English. As mayor of New York City, he opposed a welfare law that allowed city employees to turn in illegal immigrants seeking services like police protection, hospital care and public education. He also denounced a federal law that cut off Social Security benefits, food stamps and health benefits to legal immigrants who were not citizens.

Anonymous wrote:GOP, put up or shut up.

+1
Lets hear less whining about immigrant caravans and more enforcement of penalties against those who hire illegals.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agree with the above. Most Democrats I know don't want open borders and are open to reforms for the immigration system. But the distinct impression is that Republicans aren't acting in good faith on this issue. Despite the insistence that they are making a distinction between ILLEGAL versus LEGAL immigrants, one gets the distinct impression that they aren't too keen on legal immigrants either.

In fact, if one looks to poor, non-white American citizens, Republicans don't seem that keen on helping them out either. So, right or wrong, this leads to the inference that immigration control isn't the real issue but, rather, racism is. (Cue Trump foaming about shithole countries and wanting people from Scandinavian countries.)

So, yeah, lets reform the immigration system. But don't take Republicans at their word when they say that's what they want to do.

+1
It's just a straight-up lie to say that liberals or Dems are all for "open borders."

Most that I know think that the only meaningful way to reduce illegal immigration is (1) to sanction businesses and individuals who hire undocumented immigrants, (2) to make the quotas reasonable, and (3) to try to help address the problems in the countries from which people are coming, some of which are the result of American policy (whether intervention in support of dictatorships or our misguided War on Drugs). If there is a demand for their labor, they will come. If people have to wait 15 years to enter legally, many won't. If staying means facing violence and poverty, many will leave. It's a 2,000-mile border that crosses through some seriously tough terrain. There's no way anyone wants to pay for the number of agents that would be necessary to keep people from crossing, and many people who are here illegally didn't walk across the border at all -- they entered legally and overstayed their visas or entered some other way.

If you really don't understand what's causing the impasse, it's because you haven't been paying attention, and you are likely prone to Both-Sideism. There have been plenty of proposals, and one party is primarily responsible for blocking them. One party has decided that Scary Brown People and MS-13 and Hordes of Moochers and Caravans of Criminals is a great way to rile up its base.

Yes, per DHS, now a days, more illegal immigrants are from visa overstays than illegal border crossings.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/visa-overstays-outpaced-illegal-border-crossings-in-2017-dhs

And some of them work illegally while on a non work visa to the US.. ahem.

GOP, put up or shut up.

Didn’t McCain try in 2005, and the Republicans scuttle that effort as well?

The senate passed reform in 2013. We should revive that.

Anonymous wrote:Agree with the above. Most Democrats I know don't want open borders and are open to reforms for the immigration system. But the distinct impression is that Republicans aren't acting in good faith on this issue. Despite the insistence that they are making a distinction between ILLEGAL versus LEGAL immigrants, one gets the distinct impression that they aren't too keen on legal immigrants either.

In fact, if one looks to poor, non-white American citizens, Republicans don't seem that keen on helping them out either. So, right or wrong, this leads to the inference that immigration control isn't the real issue but, rather, racism is. (Cue Trump foaming about shithole countries and wanting people from Scandinavian countries.)

So, yeah, lets reform the immigration system. But don't take Republicans at their word when they say that's what they want to do.

+1
It's just a straight-up lie to say that liberals or Dems are all for "open borders."

Most that I know think that the only meaningful way to reduce illegal immigration is (1) to sanction businesses and individuals who hire undocumented immigrants, (2) to make the quotas reasonable, and (3) to try to help address the problems in the countries from which people are coming, some of which are the result of American policy (whether intervention in support of dictatorships or our misguided War on Drugs). If there is a demand for their labor, they will come. If people have to wait 15 years to enter legally, many won't. If staying means facing violence and poverty, many will leave. It's a 2,000-mile border that crosses through some seriously tough terrain. There's no way anyone wants to pay for the number of agents that would be necessary to keep people from crossing, and many people who are here illegally didn't walk across the border at all -- they entered legally and overstayed their visas or entered some other way.

If you really don't understand what's causing the impasse, it's because you haven't been paying attention, and you are likely prone to Both-Sideism. There have been plenty of proposals, and one party is primarily responsible for blocking them. One party has decided that Scary Brown People and MS-13 and Hordes of Moochers and Caravans of Criminals is a great way to rile up its base.

1. No one really wants to fix this politically I think. It's good for Rs to not have a fix and for Ds it lets them keep campaigning on it.

That said, "common sense immigration reform" would include...

2. Stop the abuse of the asylum process.
- If we decide anyone living in a poor country qualifies, it's defacto open borders.
- If we decide that it's not reasonable for people to try to "flee" to another village in their own country, in the next country they come to or the 3rd country they come to and instead "need" to all come here...it's going to amount to open borders in practice.
- I forget which podcast it was (NY Daily? This American Life?) but they ran a really interesting piece about huge and wide-spread scamming of the asylum process by companies set up in various cities' Chinatowns.

3. Acknowledge that the costs/benefits of most low-wage immigrants are not being fairly shared.
- Local communities are left to shoulder the higher schooling, policing and ER costs while most of the benefits people are normally talking about in tax collection accrue at the federal level.
- Analyses of the economic impact of immigrants that carve out calculations of the costs of their children on the premise that the kids are citizens are dishonest and reinforce the suspicious by those with concerns that the elite "don't get it". Providing those kids with school, food, doctors is absolutely the right thing to do once they're here; but it comes at a cost that would not otherwise exist if their parents had not come.
- Benefits from lower childcare, lawncare, restaurant costs tend to flow to more well off families while those with low skills are forced to endure more competition for jobs and you don't see the type of lifting of wages you'd otherwise see to fill the jobs if employers were left with no other options.

Anonymous wrote:Agree with the above. Most Democrats I know don't want open borders and are open to reforms for the immigration system. But the distinct impression is that Republicans aren't acting in good faith on this issue. Despite the insistence that they are making a distinction between ILLEGAL versus LEGAL immigrants, one gets the distinct impression that they aren't too keen on legal immigrants either.

In fact, if one looks to poor, non-white American citizens, Republicans don't seem that keen on helping them out either. So, right or wrong, this leads to the inference that immigration control isn't the real issue but, rather, racism is. (Cue Trump foaming about shithole countries and wanting people from Scandinavian countries.)

So, yeah, lets reform the immigration system. But don't take Republicans at their word when they say that's what they want to do.

+1000


Tell us when you have a reasonable bill ready, GOP.