I agree with the tutor approach. I don't think it's helpful to frame math as something that comes naturally to others but a 'weakness' for your DD so she needs to work harder at it or try harder. It's just middle school math afterall - if your DD is otherwise good at school and getting B+ in math, she can get to whatever level her friends are at with a tutor and practice. I'd approach math as a skill set that gets better with practice, rather than some innate quality.

It seems like it would be a whole lot easier to move to a different school system or put her in private school than it would be to put her in therapy. Sometimes it really just is the environment.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I was her age I really fetishized being smart. To be smart meant taking the hardest classes on the quickest timeline while making it look effortless.

The truth is most of the most brilliant minds are not the fastest and put forth tremendous amounts of effort. And they have failed. The great mathematician isn’t the student who aces calculus in 10th grade. It’s the student who keeps taking harder and harder math on her own timeline.

I wish I had known that. You could of course tell her, but kids don’t listen to stuff like this.

OP here and you are me. This is why this is so hard for me to watch. When I was a kid, I was in gifted classes and my strength was math. 99th percentile on every standardized test, high IQ, math competitions, etc. But more than that, I wrongly assumed that being "smart" meant having things come easily to you. Not working for it.

Fast forward to adulthood and I see that I couldn't have been more wrong. Hard work, determination, resilience. Getting up after falling down. Helping others. These are the hallmarks of a great human being.

I have worked her whole life for her not to repeat my mistakes. I have praised her since she was little for being a hard worker, because things don't come easily to her. I have told her about countless people I knew in life who possess the same great characteristics that she has. Who have become world leaders, top athletes and musicians because things DIDN'T come easily to them and they DIDN'T give up when it got hard. Which I *always* did and still tend to do to this day if I don't catch myself and self-correct.

I desperately want her to believe me when I tell her that she is SO MUCH BETTER than I could ever be. That because she works hard and gets up after falling down, she will have MORE success in life than someone like me, who never had to try hard for anything. But she just doesn't see it. She just sees the negatives. She just doesn't get it.

I thank you so much for your response and I hope that someday this message will get through to her.

I think you aren’t sending her the messages you think you are. You are ranking her, her cohort, her brother. You are telling her math is her weakness. That she is not like you (or her brother?), and has to work hard. I don’t think you are all to blame. You apparently have her in a school that ranks middle schoolers. I just don’t think you are helping. Get her to a therapist. They will have the right things to say.

OP, the only way to get better at math is to do lots of it. I'd stop telling your DD that some people are innately better at math, and that this group doesn't include her. There are many aspects to math and different concepts click for different people at different times. Lots of kids who are great at basic arithmetic later struggle with proofs and calculus. Some people never can learn to rotate lines about an axis and predict 3D shapes. Some people have great 3D perception. Some people can do long division in their head with ease. Others can't. Don't pre-judge what your DD can do. The fact that it's hard only makes her success more valuable.

Personally, I was always rubbish at arithmetic. It was hard for me and I learned just enough to get by. Proofs in Geometry were the first time I realized that there is much more to math than arithmetic. I loved proofs and ended up rocking Calculus. I killed the curve in my Calculus class at my engineering school semester after semester. Nonetheless, I'm still terrible at arithmetic. If I'd decided I wasn't good at math in 6th grade based on my distaste for arithmetic, I never would have gone on to get a PhD in STEM. I truly loved advanced math.

If your DD ever wants to succeed in STEM, she needs to get more comfortable with school being a challenge. Engineering schools often have GPAs that average a 2.6, versus SLACs that average a 3.5. It's a different scale. I remember passing many exams with only a 60%. This earned me an A on the curve. Work with your DD on fortitude and stop telling her that she's bad at math. It could end up being a strength for her if she puts in the work.

OP, I would consider a tutor and a therapist. Best to get a handle on your DC's worries before they become migraines and panic attacks.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I was her age I really fetishized being smart. To be smart meant taking the hardest classes on the quickest timeline while making it look effortless.

The truth is most of the most brilliant minds are not the fastest and put forth tremendous amounts of effort. And they have failed. The great mathematician isn’t the student who aces calculus in 10th grade. It’s the student who keeps taking harder and harder math on her own timeline.

I wish I had known that. You could of course tell her, but kids don’t listen to stuff like this.

OP here and you are me. This is why this is so hard for me to watch. When I was a kid, I was in gifted classes and my strength was math. 99th percentile on every standardized test, high IQ, math competitions, etc. But more than that, I wrongly assumed that being "smart" meant having things come easily to you. Not working for it.

Fast forward to adulthood and I see that I couldn't have been more wrong. Hard work, determination, resilience. Getting up after falling down. Helping others. These are the hallmarks of a great human being.

I have worked her whole life for her not to repeat my mistakes. I have praised her since she was little for being a hard worker, because things don't come easily to her. I have told her about countless people I knew in life who possess the same great characteristics that she has. Who have become world leaders, top athletes and musicians because things DIDN'T come easily to them and they DIDN'T give up when it got hard. Which I *always* did and still tend to do to this day if I don't catch myself and self-correct.

I desperately want her to believe me when I tell her that she is SO MUCH BETTER than I could ever be. That because she works hard and gets up after falling down, she will have MORE success in life than someone like me, who never had to try hard for anything. But she just doesn't see it. She just sees the negatives. She just doesn't get it.

I thank you so much for your response and I hope that someday this message will get through to her.

NP. She is living her life. Your words, telling her about your experiences and what you think you should have known, will not change her.

Childlhood isn't easy, middle school and high school aren't easy. You can't solve this for her.

Well, she sure could solve it for her by moving her to a school where B+ students aren’t seen as failures.

I feel for OP and I don’t want to sound critical. But all kids know is the cohort around them. She thinks she’s slow because she’s slower than so many kids in her class, which would not be true at 99% of schools in America. Sometimes on DCUM you hear people say “you can’t go wrong with those schools, they’re all rated 10.” But clearly “the best” isn’t always the best.

Yeah but the truth is, she's not the best. If the OP wants her to be a happy, well adjusted adult, it's best to start accepting that fact now. Moving her to a less rigorous school will just delay the process.

when my daughter was doubting herself in math, I got her a tutor, even though she was an A/B student.

I wanted her to feel comfortable and confident. I worried that struggling in 6th grade would lead to a weaker foundation for high school. At first I was afraid that the action of getting her a tutor would make her think I doubt her abilities, but it doesn't seem to have done that. It does, in fact, seem to have served the purpose I wanted it to, which is to raise her confidence in math.

Part of the reason I gave for hiring a tutor was that when she had questions in math, her dad and I couldn't help her because the way they teach math these days is different from the way we learned. It's not a lie!

We don't have that much money, and so didn't hire an expensive tutor. We were lucky in that we found an inexpensive high school student as a tutor.

Wife of a scientist here: science is about proving yourself wrong.

But non-scientists think science experiments are about proving yourself right. Wrong.

A good scientist expects to fail. Often. Failure is what leads to breakthroughs.

This is what I teach our DDs. They are not afraid to fail.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I was her age I really fetishized being smart. To be smart meant taking the hardest classes on the quickest timeline while making it look effortless.

The truth is most of the most brilliant minds are not the fastest and put forth tremendous amounts of effort. And they have failed. The great mathematician isn’t the student who aces calculus in 10th grade. It’s the student who keeps taking harder and harder math on her own timeline.

I wish I had known that. You could of course tell her, but kids don’t listen to stuff like this.

OP here and you are me. This is why this is so hard for me to watch. When I was a kid, I was in gifted classes and my strength was math. 99th percentile on every standardized test, high IQ, math competitions, etc. But more than that, I wrongly assumed that being "smart" meant having things come easily to you. Not working for it.

Fast forward to adulthood and I see that I couldn't have been more wrong. Hard work, determination, resilience. Getting up after falling down. Helping others. These are the hallmarks of a great human being.

I have worked her whole life for her not to repeat my mistakes. I have praised her since she was little for being a hard worker, because things don't come easily to her. I have told her about countless people I knew in life who possess the same great characteristics that she has. Who have become world leaders, top athletes and musicians because things DIDN'T come easily to them and they DIDN'T give up when it got hard. Which I *always* did and still tend to do to this day if I don't catch myself and self-correct.

I desperately want her to believe me when I tell her that she is SO MUCH BETTER than I could ever be. That because she works hard and gets up after falling down, she will have MORE success in life than someone like me, who never had to try hard for anything. But she just doesn't see it. She just sees the negatives. She just doesn't get it.

I thank you so much for your response and I hope that someday this message will get through to her.

NP. She is living her life. Your words, telling her about your experiences and what you think you should have known, will not change her.

Childlhood isn't easy, middle school and high school aren't easy. You can't solve this for her.

Well, she sure could solve it for her by moving her to a school where B+ students aren’t seen as failures.

I feel for OP and I don’t want to sound critical. But all kids know is the cohort around them. She thinks she’s slow because she’s slower than so many kids in her class, which would not be true at 99% of schools in America. Sometimes on DCUM you hear people say “you can’t go wrong with those schools, they’re all rated 10.” But clearly “the best” isn’t always the best.

OP, google "math anxiety in girls." Lots of articles. It's a thing, even when girls have scientist mothers.

Anonymous wrote:She might need a therapist.

Really what you're describing is just life. She was probably a big fish in a small pond in elementary school and now she's a little fish in a medium sized pond. She's learning that she's not the best and that even effort isn't going to allow her to be the best.

She's average or slightly above average, like the vast vast vast majority of people are. She's not a genius or a brilliant artist or or or or or etc. I can go on and on. However, she can still be happy and successful in life. Most people don't create master pieces or change the world. Accepting it is half the battle.

+ 1

She needs to start accepting this now or else college is going to kick her ASS.

She might need a therapist.

Really what you're describing is just life. She was probably a big fish in a small pond in elementary school and now she's a little fish in a medium sized pond. She's learning that she's not the best and that even effort isn't going to allow her to be the best.

She's average or slightly above average, like the vast vast vast majority of people are. She's not a genius or a brilliant artist or or or or or etc. I can go on and on. However, she can still be happy and successful in life. Most people don't create master pieces or change the world. Accepting it is half the battle.

You need to focus more on praising her efforts than her grades. You might be doing this, but your post makes me think that her focus is on grades. Learning that life will go on with a B might actually be good for her.

I agree with others, offer to hire her a tutor if she would be interested. Not because a B is bad, but because she seems like she wants to do more and does not know what to do. Maybe a trial run if a few weeks to see if it increases or decreases her anxiety. My guess is that since she does well in most classes, she is lumped togethor with the kids that have a much more natural inclination towards math, so the teacher may not be taking enough time to explain things.

perfectionism = anxiety/fear of failure. I'd put her in therapy.

I'm supporting the suggestion for therapy. Not because she's wrong for caring about her grades, but fixating on them and using them as a way to degrade herself is not healthy. If it weren't her not doing as well in math as some of her friends, I bet she'd find some other reason to be hyper-critical of herself. She needs help working through that, and finding confidence in who she is.

Which also means, while I agree that offering your daughter an opportunity for tutoring or something in math to help her confidence there is a good idea, I don't believe it will solve the underlying issue.