Anonymous
09/18/2018 22:07
Subject: Intra-county rivalry in MoCo
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:No one is going to be moving out of a county funded as well as Montgomery has the potential of being.
If anything, they'll have to limit people moving IN.
This logic is what got Moco into the mess it's currently in. You end up attracting people who are interested in partaking in the social service amenities because it's possible to partake more than you put in. This unsustainability is unattractive to many people who have the means to contribute a significant portion of funding for the social services. You can't assume the majority of UMC families like subsidizing so much. It doesn't work if you have a low tax jurisdiction across the river people can easily move to and still be in the area. This is absolutely the opposite direction and the current climate is the product of this. There needs to be a balance between amenities and taxes...too far in one direction and you will get a net movement of people out.
Yep
Anonymous
09/18/2018 20:15
Subject: Intra-county rivalry in MoCo
Anonymous wrote:No one is going to be moving out of a county funded as well as Montgomery has the potential of being.
If anything, they'll have to limit people moving IN.
This logic is what got Moco into the mess it's currently in. You end up attracting people who are interested in partaking in the social service amenities because it's possible to partake more than you put in. This unsustainability is unattractive to many people who have the means to contribute a significant portion of funding for the social services. You can't assume the majority of UMC families like subsidizing so much. It doesn't work if you have a low tax jurisdiction across the river people can easily move to and still be in the area. This is absolutely the opposite direction and the current climate is the product of this. There needs to be a balance between amenities and taxes...too far in one direction and you will get a net movement of people out.
Anonymous
09/18/2018 16:51
Subject: Intra-county rivalry in MoCo
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
For the rich making $1.8 million dollars a year, getting taxed by the county at 3.2% is literally nothing to them. But someone only making $20k, it's over $600!!!! There is NOTHING fair about that.
Just keep adding a little here and a little there, and you think we won't notice? I'll give you a hint - noticing the nickels and dimes is HOW we got wealthy. This mentality is why we're leaving MoCo.
Yeah... $600 is unfair and $57,600 is "literally nothing"
I am not sure if the poster is trolling or just really doesn't understand how easy it is to move to another jurisdiction around here, especially if you have plenty of money.
Anonymous
09/18/2018 16:41
Subject: Intra-county rivalry in MoCo
Anonymous wrote:
For the rich making $1.8 million dollars a year, getting taxed by the county at 3.2% is literally nothing to them. But someone only making $20k, it's over $600!!!! There is NOTHING fair about that.
Just keep adding a little here and a little there, and you think we won't notice? I'll give you a hint - noticing the nickels and dimes is HOW we got wealthy. This mentality is why we're leaving MoCo.
Anonymous
09/18/2018 16:30
Subject: Intra-county rivalry in MoCo
I wish Moco could be broken into 3 or 4 separate counties. We've tied together too many people with different priorities.
Anonymous
09/18/2018 15:34
Subject: Intra-county rivalry in MoCo
No one is going to be moving out of a county funded as well as Montgomery has the potential of being.
If anything, they'll have to limit people moving IN.
If anything, they'll have to limit people moving IN.
Anonymous
09/18/2018 13:36
Subject: Intra-county rivalry in MoCo
Anonymous wrote:
People don't move out of Scandinavian countries with FAR higher rates of tax contribution. And they won't move away from here, either. Not with all the amenities that our county could provide if our budget were increased in funding by six-fold. People would be clamming to move here, not moving out.
If you can't see the difference between uprooting yourself and leaving behind your job, family, friends to move to a totally different country vs moving across the river from Potomac to McLean or across the highway from MoCo Takoma Park to PG Takoma Park without having to give up any of those, then I can't help you.
Anonymous
09/18/2018 13:07
Subject: Intra-county rivalry in MoCo
The county tax rate in Montgomery is only 3.2%.
That's REGARDLESS of income. It doesn't matter if you're earning $18,000 a year or $1,800,000. It's the same rate. That is patently unfair to charge everyone the same rate!!!
For the rich making $1.8 million dollars a year, getting taxed by the county at 3.2% is literally nothing to them. But someone only making $20k, it's over $600!!!! There is NOTHING fair about that.
There needs to be a scaled increase in in one tax rates that goes up the more you earn. It should start at .5% for low income earners, and go up sharply after passing a realistic living wage point (maybe around $80,000?) of the current 3.2%. Beyond $100k it should meet the current state income at 5.75%, and should continue rising in scale with income.
The state income tax is also laughably low, and should be AT LEAST 10%, which would allow for suitable matching taxes on a county level.
Even at a rate of 10% for county and local, plus an assumed 35% federal, the hyper-rich will still have plenty of money left over to use to show how they are better than everyone else.
The math works just fine. What doesn't work are politicians who don't have the guts to do it.
And to those of you who suggest peoplecwill move away? No, they won't.
People don't move out of Scandinavian countries with FAR higher rates of tax contribution. And they won't move away from here, either. Not with all the amenities that our county could provide if our budget were increased in funding by six-fold. People would be clamming to move here, not moving out.
It's a very simple solution.
That's REGARDLESS of income. It doesn't matter if you're earning $18,000 a year or $1,800,000. It's the same rate. That is patently unfair to charge everyone the same rate!!!
For the rich making $1.8 million dollars a year, getting taxed by the county at 3.2% is literally nothing to them. But someone only making $20k, it's over $600!!!! There is NOTHING fair about that.
There needs to be a scaled increase in in one tax rates that goes up the more you earn. It should start at .5% for low income earners, and go up sharply after passing a realistic living wage point (maybe around $80,000?) of the current 3.2%. Beyond $100k it should meet the current state income at 5.75%, and should continue rising in scale with income.
The state income tax is also laughably low, and should be AT LEAST 10%, which would allow for suitable matching taxes on a county level.
Even at a rate of 10% for county and local, plus an assumed 35% federal, the hyper-rich will still have plenty of money left over to use to show how they are better than everyone else.
The math works just fine. What doesn't work are politicians who don't have the guts to do it.
And to those of you who suggest peoplecwill move away? No, they won't.
People don't move out of Scandinavian countries with FAR higher rates of tax contribution. And they won't move away from here, either. Not with all the amenities that our county could provide if our budget were increased in funding by six-fold. People would be clamming to move here, not moving out.
It's a very simple solution.
Anonymous
09/18/2018 12:25
Subject: Intra-county rivalry in MoCo
Who let Marc Elrich post on here?
Anonymous
09/18/2018 12:23
Subject: Intra-county rivalry in MoCo
Anonymous wrote:No, it's not. It's a gross oversimplification.
I don't want to live in a county where the #1 priority is bringing in businesses so they can pay taxes and hire more people to pay taxes. All that does is cause runaway sprawl and overdevelopment. Businesses aren't a community. Businesses don't like paying fair wages. Businesses don't care about the environment. Businesses don't care about schools. Businesses don't care about the homeless. Businesses don't care about getting rid of guns. Businesses don't care about affordable low income housing. All businesses care about is making money. And keeping money by paying as few taxes as possible.
Instead of luring businesses in, we should be asking the wealthy in Montgomery county to pay their fair share. Sorry, but if your HHI is over $100K, you need to be carrying more of the burden, because you're not doing enough.
The county's biggest problem is we have cowards who won't stand up to the rich and demand they pay their fair share. That's how you fix this.
This type of thinking is what sends wealthy people across county borders
Anonymous
09/18/2018 12:14
Subject: Intra-county rivalry in MoCo
Anonymous wrote:No, it's not. It's a gross oversimplification.
I don't want to live in a county where the #1 priority is bringing in businesses so they can pay taxes and hire more people to pay taxes. All that does is cause runaway sprawl and overdevelopment. Businesses aren't a community. Businesses don't like paying fair wages. Businesses don't care about the environment. Businesses don't care about schools. Businesses don't care about the homeless. Businesses don't care about getting rid of guns. Businesses don't care about affordable low income housing. All businesses care about is making money. And keeping money by paying as few taxes as possible.
Instead of luring businesses in, we should be asking the wealthy in Montgomery county to pay their fair share. Sorry, but if your HHI is over $100K, you need to be carrying more of the burden, because you're not doing enough.
The county's biggest problem is we have cowards who won't stand up to the rich and demand they pay their fair share. That's how you fix this.
This has got to be one of the most clueless posts I've ever read on this site, and that's saying something. This has pretty much been the attitude in MoCo for the last decade. How's it working out for you?
Besides, no one had said business is the only solution. As PP said, we used to get by on the strength of our school system. Problem is, we can't count on that anymore. Do you deny that MCPS is sliding? Any brilliant plans for fixing it? Or do you honestly think raising taxes while providing a decreasing quality of education is going to entice wealthy people to stick around?
Anonymous
09/18/2018 11:43
Subject: Intra-county rivalry in MoCo
Anonymous wrote:No, it's not. It's a gross oversimplification.
I don't want to live in a county where the #1 priority is bringing in businesses so they can pay taxes and hire more people to pay taxes. All that does is cause runaway sprawl and overdevelopment. Businesses aren't a community. Businesses don't like paying fair wages. Businesses don't care about the environment. Businesses don't care about schools. Businesses don't care about the homeless. Businesses don't care about getting rid of guns. Businesses don't care about affordable low income housing. All businesses care about is making money. And keeping money by paying as few taxes as possible.
Instead of luring businesses in, we should be asking the wealthy in Montgomery county to pay their fair share. Sorry, but if your HHI is over $100K, you need to be carrying more of the burden, because you're not doing enough.
The county's biggest problem is we have cowards who won't stand up to the rich and demand they pay their fair share. That's how you fix this.
I'm as left wing as they come, but THIS my friend is a gross oversimplification.
SOME businesses don't pay fair wages, or care about the environment, or schools, or the homelessness. Not all. We need an incentive structure that rewards ethical business practices, and draconian and/or outdated blanket regulations aren't going to do this, which, by the way, is something Marc Elrich of all people is actually looking to do. Go through regulations and toss out the ones we don't need.
Of course, we need to think beyond the surface argument that "business friendly" = less regulation and less taxes. It's not more or fewer regulations, it's "which" and "how." We need to look at our regulatory system and bring it into the 21st century and not take such a one-size-fits-all approach. A bare minimum of regulation is needed to ensure competitiveness. Also, I'm tired of people saying that we need to grow our tax base and then saying taxes on businesses are too high in the same breath. It's about balance, we need to tax businesses just enough that we can pay for progressive social programs while also allowing local businesses to thrive. It's a math problem.
If you don't tax enough, services will decline and the county will be unlivable. If you tax too much, especially smaller businesses, then they won't be able to make it. Balance.
Hardly a leftist communist manifesto.
Also, income thresholds are more complicated. I don't think $100K is considered rich here. It's survivable. A single person could maybe get by on $75K in east county. A family needs over $100K or else they'd be living pretty bare-bones. Things are just that expensive here. It's the households over $300K and beyond that don't pay their fair share, and that's because they have lawyers to help them get out of it. Heck, we could probably lower taxes on people making less than $150K if we could get everyone else to pay what they are supposed to and not weasel their way out of it. And if certain real estate developers didn't try to pay off politicians to write their own legislation, maybe ordinary homeowners wouldn't have been facing those awful property tax increases. Not trying to single out any County Executive candidate or anything...but maybe I am.
Anonymous
09/18/2018 11:36
Subject: Intra-county rivalry in MoCo
[quote=Anonymous]No, it's not. It's a gross oversimplification.
I don't want to live in a county where the #1 priority is bringing in businesses so they can pay taxes and hire more people to pay taxes. All that does is cause runaway sprawl and overdevelopment. Businesses aren't a community. Businesses don't like paying fair wages. Businesses don't care about the environment. Businesses don't care about schools. Businesses don't care about the homeless. Businesses don't care about getting rid of guns. Businesses don't care about affordable low income housing. All businesses care about is making money. And keeping money by paying as few taxes as possible.
Instead of luring businesses in, we should be asking the wealthy in Montgomery county to pay their fair share. Sorry, but if your HHI is over $100K, you need to be carrying more of the burden, because you're not doing enough.
The county's biggest problem is we have cowards who won't stand up to the rich and demand they pay their fair share. That's how you fix this. [/quote]
And this is why NoVa is eating MoCo’s lunch.
I don't want to live in a county where the #1 priority is bringing in businesses so they can pay taxes and hire more people to pay taxes. All that does is cause runaway sprawl and overdevelopment. Businesses aren't a community. Businesses don't like paying fair wages. Businesses don't care about the environment. Businesses don't care about schools. Businesses don't care about the homeless. Businesses don't care about getting rid of guns. Businesses don't care about affordable low income housing. All businesses care about is making money. And keeping money by paying as few taxes as possible.
Instead of luring businesses in, we should be asking the wealthy in Montgomery county to pay their fair share. Sorry, but if your HHI is over $100K, you need to be carrying more of the burden, because you're not doing enough.
The county's biggest problem is we have cowards who won't stand up to the rich and demand they pay their fair share. That's how you fix this. [/quote]
And this is why NoVa is eating MoCo’s lunch.
Anonymous
09/18/2018 11:28
Subject: Intra-county rivalry in MoCo
No, it's not. It's a gross oversimplification.
I don't want to live in a county where the #1 priority is bringing in businesses so they can pay taxes and hire more people to pay taxes. All that does is cause runaway sprawl and overdevelopment. Businesses aren't a community. Businesses don't like paying fair wages. Businesses don't care about the environment. Businesses don't care about schools. Businesses don't care about the homeless. Businesses don't care about getting rid of guns. Businesses don't care about affordable low income housing. All businesses care about is making money. And keeping money by paying as few taxes as possible.
Instead of luring businesses in, we should be asking the wealthy in Montgomery county to pay their fair share. Sorry, but if your HHI is over $100K, you need to be carrying more of the burden, because you're not doing enough.
The county's biggest problem is we have cowards who won't stand up to the rich and demand they pay their fair share. That's how you fix this.
I don't want to live in a county where the #1 priority is bringing in businesses so they can pay taxes and hire more people to pay taxes. All that does is cause runaway sprawl and overdevelopment. Businesses aren't a community. Businesses don't like paying fair wages. Businesses don't care about the environment. Businesses don't care about schools. Businesses don't care about the homeless. Businesses don't care about getting rid of guns. Businesses don't care about affordable low income housing. All businesses care about is making money. And keeping money by paying as few taxes as possible.
Instead of luring businesses in, we should be asking the wealthy in Montgomery county to pay their fair share. Sorry, but if your HHI is over $100K, you need to be carrying more of the burden, because you're not doing enough.
The county's biggest problem is we have cowards who won't stand up to the rich and demand they pay their fair share. That's how you fix this.
Anonymous
09/18/2018 10:04
Subject: Re:Intra-county rivalry in MoCo
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:MoCo is a complete mess. The past decade has been a disaster on all fronts. No new industries while VA, DC, Howard and even Frederick have been growing. Poverty is increasing in the east and up county areas. School system has dropped from being 1st in the state to being 9th in the state. Tax revenues are declining, debt service is increasing, no new funds for schools and the Kirwan commission is likely to reallocate 20-70% of state funding from MCPS to Baltimore so its all going to get worse.
The intra-county rivalry seems to be between the west which is sitting there wondering what happened and why they are still paying for all this and the east which keeps making dumb policies and thinks its deserves more and more resources from the west. The rural areas to the far west and north are basically ignored. I'd gather that no one in SS or Bethesda could find Dickerson on a map. They think Poolesville is in Potomac and no one ever traveled to Clarksburg before the outlets opened.
This. So much this.
People don't seem to understand that to offer all the government services we MOCO liberals want, we need money for the government. That means a strong tax base. Like it or not, we need BUSINESSES and the rich property owners in Potomac, Bethesda, etc. But we've been driving all of them away. MOCO has very business-unfriendly policies and regulations. No one in their right mind would start a business in MOCO when they could go across the river and start it in VA. We might be able to get around that if we have a high enough individual tax base, but the two biggest factors for the wealthy when choosing where to buy a home are schools and commute. If they don't work here, because their business isn't here, they won't want to live here. For a long time it was the school system that saved us. MCPS was one of the best systems in the nation, so wealthy people wanted to live here anyway. That's no longer true.
MCPS is a disaster, even in Bethesda and Potomac. Central office is a mess. About 50% of the County's annual budget goes to MCPS and they're still a disaster. Schools are overcrowded and underfunded. Classes are too big. The physical buildings are crumbling. We don't pay teachers enough, and so the best ones don't want to work in MOCO. And the curriculum - I can't even. In attempting to close the achievement gap, we've dumbed down our better schools rather than lifting up those schools that struggle. We need a complete overhaul of the schools. We need to spend a few years cutting back on other programs and infusing cash into the schools (the actual schools, not central office). An "education surge" if you will. We need immediate construction/remodeling, better teacher pay, and better curriculum.
MOCO spends a TON of money on social service programs. Take a look at the Council's community grant awards. And we're the only County in MD that fully self-funds our Department of Health and Human Services. For everyone else, that department is a State office. And that's good - we are a County that wants to take care of each other, that doesn't want someone denied healthcare because they can't afford it, that doesn't want children to go hungry, and I want to live in a place like that.
But to do all those wonderful things, we need money. We get money by building a strong tax base. We build a strong tax base by: (1) being a place where successful businesses want to headquarter (and pay taxes, and employ people, who in turn pay taxes); and (2) having the best schools, which makes property values (and taxes) go up. It's really quite simple.
Great summary.
+1
All so true