Anonymous
Post 08/15/2018 15:24     Subject: Re:Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
Here is a list of child abuse cases.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Child_sexual_abuse_in_religious_groups
Anonymous
Post 08/15/2018 15:13     Subject: Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I am struggling. Hard. I have struggled for years.

At the same time, being Catholic is part of my core identity. I do not believe everything the church preaches (the biggies - birth control, gays, right to choose, etc), but the parts that are about building a relationship with god and building community I do strongly value.

At the same time, I am a person who believes in fixing what is wrong - not leaving and letting things get worse/more insular. If I leave the church, where are the progressive voices for reform?

The level of institutional coverup and sheer volume in this most recent report is sickening. Cardinal McCarrick. Absolutely sickening. Revolting.
'
But I can't just be protestant. I'm not a protestant. I am Catholic.

I genuinely do not know what to do. Should I drop a note in the collection basket that says I am still here, but will not donate until the church implements significant reforms?

And also - abuse of this magnitude just not just start. Reports are from the 60s, 70s, 80s to present day. Did this level of coverup and abuse exist in the 1920s? 1880s? has it always been this way?


I think you raise good questions. If you remain as a "progressive voice for reform," how do you show that? Do you feel like you actually have a voice? And yes, you could put a note in the basket and not donate, but are you somewhat showing compliance/agreement by being in the pews physically? I don't know the answers - I'm struggling too.


I keep thinking of the AMAZING Catholic nuns that I know. Women that taught me that are smart and strong and a powerful force for good in the world. The ones who have been in DC at protests for immigrant children and run the foodbanks and shelters, who are nurses and teachers that help people all day every day. What do they think? How do they reconcile their service with these reports? How do they stay and be progressive voices for reform? I don't know the answer...
Anonymous
Post 08/15/2018 15:02     Subject: Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:These crimes happen in every church - the abuse and the cover up. It's horrible and inexcusable, and has no influence on my ability to reconcile with the decision to remain Catholic.


Can you provide a source that the systemic, institutionalized abuse and cover up exists in other religions?


Is there another religion where a priest/preacher raped a kid then forced the kid to confess their sin to the predator? This level of physical abuse and psychological torture happening while the Catholic hierarchy looks the other way or actively covers up known abuses is sickening.

And yes, there were priests that forced their victims to go to confession after they raped them.

I’ve heard many Catholics cling to this idea that there are pedophiles and rapists of all religions. That is true, but there is no other mainstream Christian Church that has been protecting the abusers and covering up their crimes for decades. I’m done. Nothing will change until Catholics stand up for their own children and leave the Catholic church.


I completely agree.

My mom was raised Catholic, went to 12 years of Catholic school (pre and right after Vatican II) and, after marrying my Jewish Dad, decided to raise my sister and me Jewish because she understood Judaism (in the way we were raised -- Reform) teaches greater respect for women and minorities, and does not have the systemic child abuse the Catholic Church has. That's certainly not to say there aren't creepy Rabbis--there are--but Judaism isn't organized via a secretive hierarchy that enables systemic abuse. It has other issues, but that's not one of them.

Anonymous
Post 08/15/2018 15:01     Subject: Re:Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
Anonymous wrote:All people with unchecked powers are shady. Has very little to do with religion and everything to do with teaching people to stand up for themselves. What is the #metoo movement? Same thing. Every "industry", including organized religions, have this problem. Children should be taught to be strong and powerful, not weak and meek. Same for women. Let's get people empowered!



I think the fact that priests can't be married pushes away many good men who would otherwise make good priests.
My uncle left the clergy because he met a woman and wanted to marry her (which he did). It was once of the most loving marriages I've seen.
My father left the Catholic church and joined a Lutheran one several years ago.

Anonymous
Post 08/15/2018 15:00     Subject: Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
Anonymous wrote:I am struggling. Hard. I have struggled for years.

At the same time, being Catholic is part of my core identity. I do not believe everything the church preaches (the biggies - birth control, gays, right to choose, etc), but the parts that are about building a relationship with god and building community I do strongly value.

At the same time, I am a person who believes in fixing what is wrong - not leaving and letting things get worse/more insular. If I leave the church, where are the progressive voices for reform?

The level of institutional coverup and sheer volume in this most recent report is sickening. Cardinal McCarrick. Absolutely sickening. Revolting.
'
But I can't just be protestant. I'm not a protestant. I am Catholic.

I genuinely do not know what to do. Should I drop a note in the collection basket that says I am still here, but will not donate until the church implements significant reforms?

And also - abuse of this magnitude just not just start. Reports are from the 60s, 70s, 80s to present day. Did this level of coverup and abuse exist in the 1920s? 1880s? has it always been this way?


I think you raise good questions. If you remain as a "progressive voice for reform," how do you show that? Do you feel like you actually have a voice? And yes, you could put a note in the basket and not donate, but are you somewhat showing compliance/agreement by being in the pews physically? I don't know the answers - I'm struggling too.
Anonymous
Post 08/15/2018 14:55     Subject: Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
Anonymous wrote:Sort of. My faith is intact. I still believe in God, and Jesus, and Mary and the saints and being a good person and loving all, etc. But I've long disagreed with many official holdings of the church - birth control, homosexuality, women can't be ordained, priests can't marry, etc. And of course, I'm disgusted by the decades (probably centuries) of sexual crimes and cover-ups. So basically, I dont consider the church any type of moral authority. The church leaders are just people, as flawed as anyone else. Certainly the church does some good in the world, and most priests are good people, but I don't see how it can hold itself out as a voice for justice and human rights and morality until it makes a LOT of big changes.

So yes, I can still be Catholic inasmuch as my faith guides my personal life. But I feel no loyalty to the institution of the Catholic Church. I hope one day the church can live up to it's potnential and promise.


I feel much the same, PP. Having been raised Catholic, I will always be a “cultural” Catholic, but I left the church years ago when I realized I couldn’t look my daughter in the eye and say I was taking her to a church that valued her brother more than her. As a human-made institution, the church, like all others, is inherently flawed. I never expected it to be perfect but it had all gone too far way before yesterday’s news. Makes me sad and angry.
Anonymous
Post 08/15/2018 14:50     Subject: Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
Anonymous wrote:Sort of. My faith is intact. I still believe in God, and Jesus, and Mary and the saints and being a good person and loving all, etc. But I've long disagreed with many official holdings of the church - birth control, homosexuality, women can't be ordained, priests can't marry, etc. And of course, I'm disgusted by the decades (probably centuries) of sexual crimes and cover-ups. So basically, I dont consider the church any type of moral authority. The church leaders are just people, as flawed as anyone else. Certainly the church does some good in the world, and most priests are good people, but I don't see how it can hold itself out as a voice for justice and human rights and morality until it makes a LOT of big changes.

So yes, I can still be Catholic inasmuch as my faith guides my personal life. But I feel no loyalty to the institution of the Catholic Church. I hope one day the church can live up to it's potnential and promise.


Your beliefs sound Episcopalian.

I don’t understand how you can consider yourself Catholic and not believe in the fundamental sacraments and principles of Catholicism.
Anonymous
Post 08/15/2018 14:48     Subject: Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
I am struggling. Hard. I have struggled for years.

At the same time, being Catholic is part of my core identity. I do not believe everything the church preaches (the biggies - birth control, gays, right to choose, etc), but the parts that are about building a relationship with god and building community I do strongly value.

At the same time, I am a person who believes in fixing what is wrong - not leaving and letting things get worse/more insular. If I leave the church, where are the progressive voices for reform?

The level of institutional coverup and sheer volume in this most recent report is sickening. Cardinal McCarrick. Absolutely sickening. Revolting.
'
But I can't just be protestant. I'm not a protestant. I am Catholic.

I genuinely do not know what to do. Should I drop a note in the collection basket that says I am still here, but will not donate until the church implements significant reforms?

And also - abuse of this magnitude just not just start. Reports are from the 60s, 70s, 80s to present day. Did this level of coverup and abuse exist in the 1920s? 1880s? has it always been this way?
Anonymous
Post 08/15/2018 14:47     Subject: Re:Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
Anonymous wrote:All people with unchecked powers are shady. Has very little to do with religion and everything to do with teaching people to stand up for themselves. What is the #metoo movement? Same thing. Every "industry", including organized religions, have this problem. Children should be taught to be strong and powerful, not weak and meek. Same for women. Let's get people empowered!




Yeah, let's teach that 18-month old baby who was molested to be strong and powerful and resist the priest.
Anonymous
Post 08/15/2018 14:46     Subject: Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:These crimes happen in every church - the abuse and the cover up. It's horrible and inexcusable, and has no influence on my ability to reconcile with the decision to remain Catholic.


Can you provide a source that the systemic, institutionalized abuse and cover up exists in other religions?


Is there another religion where a priest/preacher raped a kid then forced the kid to confess their sin to the predator? This level of physical abuse and psychological torture happening while the Catholic hierarchy looks the other way or actively covers up known abuses is sickening.

And yes, there were priests that forced their victims to go to confession after they raped them.

I’ve heard many Catholics cling to this idea that there are pedophiles and rapists of all religions. That is true, but there is no other mainstream Christian Church that has been protecting the abusers and covering up their crimes for decades. I’m done. Nothing will change until Catholics stand up for their own children and leave the Catholic church.
Anonymous
Post 08/15/2018 14:45     Subject: Re:Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
There will be more shocking disgusting things coming. From the people you trusted the most. Prepare yourself. It will be devastating.


https://thelightinthedarkplace.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/vatican-audience-hall-snake-e1524240496557.png?w=616
Anonymous
Post 08/15/2018 14:44     Subject: Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
Anonymous wrote:Sort of. My faith is intact. I still believe in God, and Jesus, and Mary and the saints and being a good person and loving all, etc. But I've long disagreed with many official holdings of the church - birth control, homosexuality, women can't be ordained, priests can't marry, etc. And of course, I'm disgusted by the decades (probably centuries) of sexual crimes and cover-ups. So basically, I dont consider the church any type of moral authority. The church leaders are just people, as flawed as anyone else. Certainly the church does some good in the world, and most priests are good people, but I don't see how it can hold itself out as a voice for justice and human rights and morality until it makes a LOT of big changes.

So yes, I can still be Catholic inasmuch as my faith guides my personal life. But I feel no loyalty to the institution of the Catholic Church. I hope one day the church can live up to it's potnential and promise.


So what defines you as Catholic as opposed to some other sect of Christianity?
Anonymous
Post 08/15/2018 14:42     Subject: Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
Sort of. My faith is intact. I still believe in God, and Jesus, and Mary and the saints and being a good person and loving all, etc. But I've long disagreed with many official holdings of the church - birth control, homosexuality, women can't be ordained, priests can't marry, etc. And of course, I'm disgusted by the decades (probably centuries) of sexual crimes and cover-ups. So basically, I dont consider the church any type of moral authority. The church leaders are just people, as flawed as anyone else. Certainly the church does some good in the world, and most priests are good people, but I don't see how it can hold itself out as a voice for justice and human rights and morality until it makes a LOT of big changes.

So yes, I can still be Catholic inasmuch as my faith guides my personal life. But I feel no loyalty to the institution of the Catholic Church. I hope one day the church can live up to it's potnential and promise.
Anonymous
Post 08/15/2018 14:25     Subject: Re:Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
Anonymous wrote:All people with unchecked powers are shady. Has very little to do with religion and everything to do with teaching people to stand up for themselves. What is the #metoo movement? Same thing. Every "industry", including organized religions, have this problem. Children should be taught to be strong and powerful, not weak and meek. Same for women. Let's get people empowered!



They are using their position of trust and authority to prey on the weak. And in the name of God. Children told their parents - many did
- and it was not credible because they were PRIESTS. The priests situate themselves to have private access and lay people in the know facilitate it. Special one on one sessions with troubled kids, the ones who teachers have indicated need more nurturing due to difficult home situations. “Let the little children come to me.” It’s abhorrent.

Do these priests even have a calling to serve God? Or is priesthood an opportunistic choice they’re making from the start? In many cases, I believe it’s the latter.
Anonymous
Post 08/15/2018 14:10     Subject: Re:Can you reconcile remaining Catholic?
Anonymous wrote:All people with unchecked powers are shady. Has very little to do with religion and everything to do with teaching people to stand up for themselves. What is the #metoo movement? Same thing. Every "industry", including organized religions, have this problem. Children should be taught to be strong and powerful, not weak and meek. Same for women. Let's get people empowered!



I completely agree that these kinds of abuses result in every industry where people are in positions of power. But I think this is extra, extra sickening because of the role religion serves to organize people's lives, eternity, and worth in a way that does not utilize the concept of "forever" like entertainment and politics. It's an abuse like no other, because these men - and the many, many men who enabled abusers in the Catholic Church - betrayed people on a whole other level. The systemic nature of it all also seems much, much more deeply rooted. But yes, people in positions of power will often abuse their roles, when it comes to matters of women and children.