Anonymous wrote:

I don't think people like the idea of someone's future being narrowed down for them while they are in their teens.

This. My kids are going to college, absolutely. We value higher education. After college they can become anything they want. They can become a welder, electrician, plumber, an entrepreneur ... anything. I'm paying for college. If you can do this as a parent, it would be foolish not to.

Do you "value" the college party culture? Why do you think your kid won't partake?

I don't think people like the idea of someone's future being narrowed down for them while they are in their teens.

This. My kids are going to college, absolutely. We value higher education. After college they can become anything they want. They can become a welder, electrician, plumber, an entrepreneur ... anything. I'm paying for college. If you can do this as a parent, it would be foolish not to.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe we should use a German model and start tracking kids into vocations and professions starting from middle school.

I agree but America is all about the land of opportunities. I don't think people like the idea of someone's future being narrowed down for them while they are in their teens.

I think the German tracking model makes sense in countries where there is less income/class disparity and the playing field is more even to begin with.
I've met several people who were raised in low SES families and made bad choices in their teens, but later on excelled. One girl from my HS got knocked up our senior year and was a poor single mom, now she's a lawyer. One guy I know with a single mom from Mexico almost flunked out of HS but worked his way up through community college, transferred to state school, and is now making around 400K/year in his field. On the other hand I know some rich kids who got good SATs and all the resources their parents could throw at them, went to privates and ivies, yet who just can't seem to get a stable job or do anything productive in life. The successful people aren't necessarily the ones whose parents were pushing them in HS.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If we're honest with ourselves, college has become about class. As in a social class.

The problem is that many kids are pushed into college; they believe the counselors and teachers who feed them the "college is the path to the middle class!" line and then they get to school with poor preparation, don't graduate, and have no discernible skills, but DO have a pile of debt.

They don't know that there are sooo many options out there that don't need to involve a 4-year degree. I don't know how we've gotten to the point in our society where people think the options are college degree or $11/hour job at Safeway because it's just plain not true.

I agree 100%. Media and the colleges are in cahoots, with nonstop mutual backscratching. Even Obama was in on it, as almost every other politician.

Beware of the lies.

Anonymous wrote:If we're honest with ourselves, college has become about class. As in a social class.

The problem is that many kids are pushed into college; they believe the counselors and teachers who feed them the "college is the path to the middle class!" line and then they get to school with poor preparation, don't graduate, and have no discernible skills, but DO have a pile of debt.

They don't know that there are sooo many options out there that don't need to involve a 4-year degree. I don't know how we've gotten to the point in our society where people think the options are college degree or $11/hour job at Safeway because it's just plain not true.

If we're honest with ourselves, college has become about class. As in a social class.

We don't need to start tracking kids as young as middle school but by the high school, that fair. Trades needs to be presented as a real option. We also need more options for post secondary education. We should bring back AA/AS as a real degree not just as a stepping stone to a BA/BS. An Associates can be a kind of white collar vocational training degree for paralegals, residential real estate, small business/property management, etc. It would teach people what they need to know for a specific job. There should also be an option for European style 3 year undergrad degree in a specific field. Students can either choose that or traditional American undergrad format.

There are multiple avenues for success- higher education should reflect that.

p.s. To fix my remote control and entertainment system, the guy who comes in to help has to "reprogram it". The regular cable guys are useless.

With increasingly sophisticated technology, will our young engineers end up filling advanced trade roles?

Anonymous wrote:Because the manufacturing sector/path to middle class disappeared

Actually, this is completely untrue.

MOST jobs of the future will NOT require a college degree. There is a massive trade shortage. Right now, we are starting our tradespeople off at $55K/year. Problem is, we (along with pretty much every other company) have a tough time finding people to fill these roles.

Here's a video that does a great job explaining the "new" economy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs6nQpVI164

I don't know, but it's one of the biggest educational crises in the past few decades, IMO.

IMO a mini form of business school should accompany vocational training. One can do very well with a trade but would be well served to understand the basics of running their own business or moving into management. People get injured and old. These are generally physical professions. A family member owns construction companies that he built from the ground up. He's good with his hands and is naturally savvy but also has a 4 year business degree. It all worked together successfully.

There's a lot of discussion and innovation concerned with the "value of a four year college education". See Mitch Daniels at Purdue who is laser focused on providing measurable value to students (and has maintained tuition at the same level for the past seven years). One issue is that high school students are not well prepared for college - a focus on higher, measurable, standards for HS graduation, and improved career guidance, could help students and families assess their readiness, ambition and interest for college. It's been said that "college is not the place to find yourself" - unless of course you have plenty of time and money. When plumbers, iron workers, large equipment operators, electricians, HVAC/Gas can earn $60,000/yr after a training program post HS, for a lot of kids it makes sense. If you can work up to running a few crews, invest in property, work hard, you can make more than most "white collar" guys - and if it's your thing you will have more fun. Showing students a broad range of employment paths is important. The WaPo highlights local entrepreneurs each week and it's fun to read about how people found their niche.

Some other resources -

https://www.nas.org/articles/one_hundred_great_ideas_for_higher_education

Watch The Case Against Education - Bryan Caplan Professor at George Mason : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hZylJp-pHo HIGHLY RECOMMENDED

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertfarrington/2014/11/10/5-proud-alternatives-to-going-to-college/#212f00da354e


As Mark Twain said: "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education".

Because we can't admit that not all kids are equally smart. no more than 10-15% of kids can actually benefit from college level coursework in a sense of learning/retaining something and using it afterwards. Of course if you water down coursework many more can pretend to be at that level so the rest must pursue graduate degrees. it's a stupid and wasteful system.

Because the manufacturing sector/path to middle class disappeared