Anonymous
Post 12/20/2017 12:00     Subject: My kids never know what to study, information in too many differnt places
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:A few years ago, all the complaints were about teachers being overly dependent on textbooks and the resulting lack of creativity in the classroom. Teachers just can't win!

A lot of parents like textbooks so they can teach their kids one chapter ahead of the class. That way, little Larla/o looks sooo smart because he understands the lesson in class so quickly.

In the long run, it is better for kids to learn with their peers so that the teacher can get a better sense of when the class needs a little more time on an area and when they can move forward. It throws off the true rhythm of the class when a few kids have been working separately at home with parents or tutors.


This is exactly what is wrong with the education system in America. Instead of praising individual responsibility taken by a kid/family to take ownership of a student's own education, you want to disapprove of taking initiative to work harder in order to do better. Since when is it a bad thing to be prepared or to do one's very best? And we wonder why people are starting to complain about catering to the lowest common denominator in school and how kids don't feel any responsibility for their own educational attainment. Wow, PP. It's sad that so many people think like you.


Sorry, it is not simply "working hard" and "taking initiative" to try to set up child up to look smarter than s/he actually is. Being prepared is doing the homework as it is assigned, not being taught a lesson ahead of the class so as to look smarter than the other kids. If some kids are being taught ahead of the class, the teacher might think the class needs less time on an area, when that is not actually true. When the class learns together, the teacher can help all the students to understand the lesson using the available resources.

Doing what's assigned and doing it well is good, but I think of it as a bare minimum. You really never strive to go above and beyond, nor support your kids in doing the same?
Anonymous
Post 12/20/2017 11:34     Subject: My kids never know what to study, information in too many differnt places
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:A few years ago, all the complaints were about teachers being overly dependent on textbooks and the resulting lack of creativity in the classroom. Teachers just can't win!

A lot of parents like textbooks so they can teach their kids one chapter ahead of the class. That way, little Larla/o looks sooo smart because he understands the lesson in class so quickly.

In the long run, it is better for kids to learn with their peers so that the teacher can get a better sense of when the class needs a little more time on an area and when they can move forward. It throws off the true rhythm of the class when a few kids have been working separately at home with parents or tutors.


This is exactly what is wrong with the education system in America. Instead of praising individual responsibility taken by a kid/family to take ownership of a student's own education, you want to disapprove of taking initiative to work harder in order to do better. Since when is it a bad thing to be prepared or to do one's very best? And we wonder why people are starting to complain about catering to the lowest common denominator in school and how kids don't feel any responsibility for their own educational attainment. Wow, PP. It's sad that so many people think like you.


Sorry, it is not simply "working hard" and "taking initiative" to try to set up child up to look smarter than s/he actually is. Being prepared is doing the homework as it is assigned, not being taught a lesson ahead of the class so as to look smarter than the other kids. If some kids are being taught ahead of the class, the teacher might think the class needs less time on an area, when that is not actually true. When the class learns together, the teacher can help all the students to understand the lesson using the available resources.
Anonymous
Post 12/20/2017 10:41     Subject: My kids never know what to study, information in too many differnt places
Anonymous wrote:A few years ago, all the complaints were about teachers being overly dependent on textbooks and the resulting lack of creativity in the classroom. Teachers just can't win!

A lot of parents like textbooks so they can teach their kids one chapter ahead of the class. That way, little Larla/o looks sooo smart because he understands the lesson in class so quickly.

In the long run, it is better for kids to learn with their peers so that the teacher can get a better sense of when the class needs a little more time on an area and when they can move forward. It throws off the true rhythm of the class when a few kids have been working separately at home with parents or tutors.


This is exactly what is wrong with the education system in America. Instead of praising individual responsibility taken by a kid/family to take ownership of a student's own education, you want to disapprove of taking initiative to work harder in order to do better. Since when is it a bad thing to be prepared or to do one's very best? And we wonder why people are starting to complain about catering to the lowest common denominator in school and how kids don't feel any responsibility for their own educational attainment. Wow, PP. It's sad that so many people think like you.
Anonymous
Post 12/20/2017 10:32     Subject: Re:My kids never know what to study, information in too many differnt places
It is really on the parents to teach organization which is fine with me but sooooooo many parents don't want to be bothered with anything including homework. My son has ADHD and one of the reasons I moved him out of public school is that they don't teach any of the skills needed for success later on. Every room I walked into had student desks with crap literally falling out of it. So many papers and they were everywhere. If the schools aren't going to use textbooks, they need to teach the students how to organize the hundreds of papers they are being given. From the looks of it, the students shove the papers in their desks and lockers. So they push higher order thinking skills but the basics of organization are ignored. Thankfully my son is now in private school where there are some textbooks for his classes (algebra, grammar, vocabulary). His teachers give the students a sheet to put at the beginning of each section of their binders with a numbered list of each paper they hand out. The teachers collect and check the binders periodically for a grade. For someone with ADHD, it is very easy to get lost in a sea of papers.
Anonymous
Post 12/20/2017 10:32     Subject: My kids never know what to study, information in too many differnt places
A few years ago, all the complaints were about teachers being overly dependent on textbooks and the resulting lack of creativity in the classroom. Teachers just can't win!

A lot of parents like textbooks so they can teach their kids one chapter ahead of the class. That way, little Larla/o looks sooo smart because he understands the lesson in class so quickly.

In the long run, it is better for kids to learn with their peers so that the teacher can get a better sense of when the class needs a little more time on an area and when they can move forward. It throws off the true rhythm of the class when a few kids have been working separately at home with parents or tutors.
Anonymous
Post 12/20/2017 10:31     Subject: Re:My kids never know what to study, information in too many differnt places
OP here. It all seems to be about balance. Maybe a little searching around for a 7th grader? Then more as they get older. That should satisfy the people who like the research. Then for people like me, what about say guaranteed at least two classes per grade with a textbook. Maybe languages and math? Both of those subjects are static enough that you don’t need a new version more than ever 5-10 years.
Anonymous
Post 12/20/2017 10:24     Subject: My kids never know what to study, information in too many differnt places
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Kids shouldn’t be spending more time learning how to gather information, most of the time should be spent learning the material.


This is completely wrong. How to gather and organize information is a key skill that kids need to learn to succeed later.


When it's done in a deliberate and thoughtful way at a point where children can handle it, absolutely. Not in middle school, and not because teachers are clearly lazy and ignorant and just can't be bothered to regroup and organize their sources.



The teacher is pointing them to the sources, it is up to them to organize the sources as best suits them because how to organize study materials will vary with each child's learning style. How to organize their school papers is a skill kids should be learning long before 7th/9th grade; if they haven't, that's a failing of their past teachers (and, frankly, their parents), not the current teachers.


This is partly the reason why more and more students are diagnosed with executive function disorders and ADHD, which are all linked to difficulties in organization and time management. Previously, such young children were not asked to become organized like this, since everyone had textbooks. I am NOT saying ADHD is purely created by environmental conditions, obviously. Just that more weaknesses are revealed if you put people in certain demanding conditions.

The same goes for dyslexia. The global method of teaching to read, used in recent years, has correlated with a higher incidence of dyslexia. This is because the global method assumes that learning to read is intuitive and children merely need to be exposed to texts and they will pick it up. Well, not all children. Previously, when a more rigorous phonetic approach was used, there were fewer dyslexia diagnoses.

Of course, all this is made murkier by the fact that learning disabilities and mental health were more taboo before than they are now, and therefore were less diagnosed. This is a confounding factor. However, other countries have made the same type of observations at different periods of time, so the mass of information available clearly points to the fact that when educational methods presume too much on the part of the student at a developmentally inappropriate time, there are more children with "issues" than before who need expensive remedial help and who develop low self-esteem, at a cost to the country. We should change the methods, instead of castigating the students or their families.



PP here, I have ADHD (diagnosed as an adult) as does my child, so I can relate to what you're saying. Where I differ from you, though, is in what I think we should take from the dynamic. I grew up with having everything organized and spoon-fed to me as a child (much as people are advocating for here), so I didn't learn how to do it myself when I was younger and then fell on my face in college when I was expected to already know how to do it and there was no one to help me. If anything, I think kids having to take responsibility for themselves at younger ages makes it easier to identify the kids who really struggle with that before they fail in a more consequential way, and may lead to earlier diagnosis and treatment/skill-building.

And if you have a child with ADHD, it's that much more important to take the opportunity now to teach your child how to organize themselves when they're young and it's simpler rather than leaving them to figure it out when they're on their own and everything is more complex. I've been teaching my kids how to organize their own school papers, plan projects, etc., since first grade. There's almost no effort in it at that age, but it's made it so much easier to add new elements or complexity later because they already had the foundation.
Anonymous
Post 12/20/2017 10:15     Subject: My kids never know what to study, information in too many differnt places
Pp, all the printing is expensive too. I don’t get what all the updating is about. Euclidean geometry hasn’t changed much in the last 10 years, or wait, 1000 years. Bring back the textbooks.
Anonymous
Post 12/20/2017 10:12     Subject: My kids never know what to study, information in too many differnt places
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Kids shouldn’t be spending more time learning how to gather information, most of the time should be spent learning the material.


This is completely wrong. How to gather and organize information is a key skill that kids need to learn to succeed later.


When it's done in a deliberate and thoughtful way at a point where children can handle it, absolutely. Not in middle school, and not because teachers are clearly lazy and ignorant and just can't be bothered to regroup and organize their sources.



The teacher is pointing them to the sources, it is up to them to organize the sources as best suits them because how to organize study materials will vary with each child's learning style. How to organize their school papers is a skill kids should be learning long before 7th/9th grade; if they haven't, that's a failing of their past teachers (and, frankly, their parents), not the current teachers.


This is partly the reason why more and more students are diagnosed with executive function disorders and ADHD, which are all linked to difficulties in organization and time management. Previously, such young children were not asked to become organized like this, since everyone had textbooks. I am NOT saying ADHD is purely created by environmental conditions, obviously. Just that more weaknesses are revealed if you put people in certain demanding conditions.

The same goes for dyslexia. The global method of teaching to read, used in recent years, has correlated with a higher incidence of dyslexia. This is because the global method assumes that learning to read is intuitive and children merely need to be exposed to texts and they will pick it up. Well, not all children. Previously, when a more rigorous phonetic approach was used, there were fewer dyslexia diagnoses.

Of course, all this is made murkier by the fact that learning disabilities and mental health were more taboo before than they are now, and therefore were less diagnosed. This is a confounding factor. However, other countries have made the same type of observations at different periods of time, so the mass of information available clearly points to the fact that when educational methods presume too much on the part of the student at a developmentally inappropriate time, there are more children with "issues" than before who need expensive remedial help and who develop low self-esteem, at a cost to the country. We should change the methods, instead of castigating the students or their families.

Anonymous
Post 12/20/2017 10:11     Subject: My kids never know what to study, information in too many differnt places
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Kids shouldn’t be spending more time learning how to gather information, most of the time should be spent learning the material.


This is completely wrong. How to gather and organize information is a key skill that kids need to learn to succeed later.


So you’re saying that instead of repetitively going over Spanish vocabulary and grammar, they should be clicking around gathering word lists or trying to find the list in the first place? So 30 minutesof gathering and 20 minutes of studying? You said I was completely wrong. I believe that at some point the material matters more.


According to the OP, the teacher had already directed them to the sources. On the first day they are directed to the word list, they should find it (which won't take 30 minutes unless they've left it for a week, didn't write down what the teacher said at the time, and now can't remember where the teacher said it was), print it out and stick it in a folder or binder where they keep their Spanish notes. Then when they're ready to study, they know exactly where it is and don't have to waste time searching for it.

I'm honestly shocked that this is such a difficult concept for people in this thread. Sure, many kids will need to be taught these kinds of organizational skills, but it shouldn't be hard for the parents to figure it out. I mean, what do you do at work? If your boss gives you a new project, do you not take notes on what they tell you to do and any resources they suggest? Do you not save copies (hard or soft) of the materials you consult for future review? Do you not collect all of your notes and resources in a single easy-to-find place for future review?

This is exactly the age for kids to be learning how to do this (if not earlier) because as they older, the material with get more substantial/complex, and they will need to have already learned these skills to keep up. If your kids don't have the skills, you as the parent need to teach them. Otherwise you're setting them up to fail.
Anonymous
Post 12/20/2017 10:10     Subject: My kids never know what to study, information in too many differnt places
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Scientific researcher again.

Teachers are not adequately trained in this country. Despite their love of children and enthusiasm, they are unfortunately often the bottom of the barrel academically. That's why we rank so low in international rankings of reading and math, while spending so much on education. We should invest in hiring smarter teachers (select only the best, design more rigorous education programs, pay much better), who will be able to understand and adapt to the multiple changes in curriculae they will experience over their teaching career, and implement them intelligently, always putting the students' development first.


I think that's only part of the problem. What has caused this trend away from textbooks? It seems clear that it does not improve the learning environment and in fact harms it. I would think a moderately skilled teacher would do better with a text to teach from, instead of having to start from scratch gathering materials.


PP you responded to. Textbooks are bloody expensive and have to be constantly updated. I taught in a state college, and the price of books was exorbitant. I think if one state had the courage to unify a curriculum for all its public school systems, and order textbooks for all, it might get a reasonable price. But at a time when people expect everything to be new and shiny and disposable, we would also have to understand that books have to be taken care of, handed back in at the end of the year in reasonable condition (perhaps with a fee for damage), and used for next year's class, to keep costs down.

And the lure of technology is just too great. I volunteered for years in my kids' elementary, which pioneered the use of Promethean boards and laptops for each student, and it's ridiculous. Children are not taught how to write with good form, under the belief that they will only need to type as adults. Yet research shows that learning and memorization is enhanced by physically writing down information, NOT typing it. And using cursive might even be better, learning-wise, than block letters. Only a small handful of public school students know how to write well in cursive, which allows for swift and comfortable writing - pushing them to type even earlier. Looking at screens all day strains the eyes more than looking at a sheet of paper.
Yet people are so convinced that more tech is better that it's hard for school systems to appear to "regress" in that regard.

Anyway. One of my pet peeves.


I teach at an online university that now requires all classes to use only FREE electronic resources. This can include items owned by the library, so it's not all blogs or anything, but boy do I miss textbooks. When you teach a basic level class in anything, nothing beats a textbook for organizing that foundational information in a clear way that leads from one idea logically to the next. It's ridiculous, for example, that when I teach Introduction to Women's Studies, there's no comprehensive reading on the history of the women's movement in the US anymore with graphics and a timeline. It's the kind of thing a textbook does so well, but the online textbooks are either not that good (the open source, free ones) or expensive, so the school won't assign them.

So I put together powerpoint shows that basically reproduce the old textbooks. Yes, I cite them, but no, I am not updating them with the latest findings every term.
Anonymous
Post 12/20/2017 10:04     Subject: My kids never know what to study, information in too many differnt places
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Scientific researcher again.

Teachers are not adequately trained in this country. Despite their love of children and enthusiasm, they are unfortunately often the bottom of the barrel academically. That's why we rank so low in international rankings of reading and math, while spending so much on education. We should invest in hiring smarter teachers (select only the best, design more rigorous education programs, pay much better), who will be able to understand and adapt to the multiple changes in curriculae they will experience over their teaching career, and implement them intelligently, always putting the students' development first.


I think that's only part of the problem. What has caused this trend away from textbooks? It seems clear that it does not improve the learning environment and in fact harms it. I would think a moderately skilled teacher would do better with a text to teach from, instead of having to start from scratch gathering materials.


PP you responded to. Textbooks are bloody expensive and have to be constantly updated. I taught in a state college, and the price of books was exorbitant. I think if one state had the courage to unify a curriculum for all its public school systems, and order textbooks for all, it might get a reasonable price. But at a time when people expect everything to be new and shiny and disposable, we would also have to understand that books have to be taken care of, handed back in at the end of the year in reasonable condition (perhaps with a fee for damage), and used for next year's class, to keep costs down.

And the lure of technology is just too great. I volunteered for years in my kids' elementary, which pioneered the use of Promethean boards and laptops for each student, and it's ridiculous. Children are not taught how to write with good form, under the belief that they will only need to type as adults. Yet research shows that learning and memorization is enhanced by physically writing down information, NOT typing it. And using cursive might even be better, learning-wise, than block letters. Only a small handful of public school students know how to write well in cursive, which allows for swift and comfortable writing - pushing them to type even earlier. Looking at screens all day strains the eyes more than looking at a sheet of paper.
Yet people are so convinced that more tech is better that it's hard for school systems to appear to "regress" in that regard.

Anyway. One of my pet peeves.
Anonymous
Post 12/20/2017 10:03     Subject: My kids never know what to study, information in too many differnt places
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Kids shouldn’t be spending more time learning how to gather information, most of the time should be spent learning the material.


This is completely wrong. How to gather and organize information is a key skill that kids need to learn to succeed later.


When it's done in a deliberate and thoughtful way at a point where children can handle it, absolutely. Not in middle school, and not because teachers are clearly lazy and ignorant and just can't be bothered to regroup and organize their sources.



The teacher is pointing them to the sources, it is up to them to organize the sources as best suits them because how to organize study materials will vary with each child's learning style. How to organize their school papers is a skill kids should be learning long before 7th/9th grade; if they haven't, that's a failing of their past teachers (and, frankly, their parents), not the current teachers.
Anonymous
Post 12/20/2017 09:58     Subject: My kids never know what to study, information in too many differnt places
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Kids shouldn’t be spending more time learning how to gather information, most of the time should be spent learning the material.


This is completely wrong. How to gather and organize information is a key skill that kids need to learn to succeed later.


So you’re saying that instead of repetitively going over Spanish vocabulary and grammar, they should be clicking around gathering word lists or trying to find the list in the first place? So 30 minutesof gathering and 20 minutes of studying? You said I was completely wrong. I believe that at some point the material matters more.
Anonymous
Post 12/20/2017 09:53     Subject: My kids never know what to study, information in too many differnt places
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Kids shouldn’t be spending more time learning how to gather information, most of the time should be spent learning the material.


This is completely wrong. How to gather and organize information is a key skill that kids need to learn to succeed later.


It's an inefficient way to learn something. Learning how to research is great, but it shouldn't be the primary focus of a 7th grade math class!