Anonymous
Post 11/17/2017 12:27     Subject: Help me help my DD navigate frenemy
Anonymous wrote:Agree about the need to make other friends. My son had a situation somewhat like this when he was around 5th-7th grade (a kid who was not his friend but tried to insert himself into DS's social plans whenever he made plans with other kids and to exclude DS whenever this kid had plans). The kid would also talk negatively about DS to other kids. DS finally just stopped all contact outside of school and started focusing a lot more on his sports friends. The kid reacted negatively for a while by stepping up his attempts to exclude DS and say negative things about him, but DS eventually just made a whole new circle of friends.

Over time, DS also realized that other kids in the original circle were kind of enabling this stuff -- one friend in particular (a girl) that DS considered one of his best friends. In middle school, DS finally realized that he was still trying to be friends but she was answering about one in three of his texts and also making sure that DS knew when she was hanging out with the frenemy boy. Once DS realized that she wasn't really his friend, he totally stop contact with her too. He was friendly when they saw each other at school but never texted or initiated any contact. When she invited him to hang out he replied regretfully that he had other plans whether he did or not. It was a somewhat tough year or so socially while that happened, but DS ended up MUCH happier and started to blossom socially as he challenged himself to hang out with different kids. Once high school started, his skill at getting out of his comfort zone and making new friends really helped him to make a lot of new friends. Meanwhile that group from ES/MS is largely all still in the same somewhat dysfunctional little group.



NP here. Thank you for sharing this. My son has the same situation as OP and there seems to be thi9s myth that boys don't ever have these issues.

OP we actually stopped encouraging friendships with the kids who don't defend DS too. We used to get them together outside of school, but as we started hearing it wasn't just that these boys said nothing, but that they sometimes jump into we decided enough. Hosting kids at my home can be work sometimes and I am not feeding and keeping safe a kid who is a jerk. I am always happy to host kids who are true friends. When those kids parents invite DS I make it his decision, but make sure he thinks about the message he sends by going after just that day they were cruel at recess. Now he gets why he should decline. Now if I hear the other kids turn around they will be welcome over again.

If your daughter keeps pursuing those friendships it keeps them feeling powerful. If she doesn't give them the time of day anymore, then they lose their power and their rude behavior is no longer reinforced. I know this is easier said than done of course.
Anonymous
Post 11/17/2017 11:40     Subject: Help me help my DD navigate frenemy
Anonymous wrote:Agree about the need to make other friends. My son had a situation somewhat like this when he was around 5th-7th grade (a kid who was not his friend but tried to insert himself into DS's social plans whenever he made plans with other kids and to exclude DS whenever this kid had plans). The kid would also talk negatively about DS to other kids. DS finally just stopped all contact outside of school and started focusing a lot more on his sports friends. The kid reacted negatively for a while by stepping up his attempts to exclude DS and say negative things about him, but DS eventually just made a whole new circle of friends.

Over time, DS also realized that other kids in the original circle were kind of enabling this stuff -- one friend in particular (a girl) that DS considered one of his best friends. In middle school, DS finally realized that he was still trying to be friends but she was answering about one in three of his texts and also making sure that DS knew when she was hanging out with the frenemy boy. Once DS realized that she wasn't really his friend, he totally stop contact with her too. He was friendly when they saw each other at school but never texted or initiated any contact. When she invited him to hang out he replied regretfully that he had other plans whether he did or not. It was a somewhat tough year or so socially while that happened, but DS ended up MUCH happier and started to blossom socially as he challenged himself to hang out with different kids. Once high school started, his skill at getting out of his comfort zone and making new friends really helped him to make a lot of new friends. Meanwhile that group from ES/MS is largely all still in the same somewhat dysfunctional little group.


Thanks - this gives me hope. This scenario matches up with what I see - my daughter has backed away to protect herself, which may have made things worse, in a way, similar to what you described. (I just don’t get that part - like the bully is oddly obsessed with ensuring that person is at his or her mercy? Aside from being spoiled, there are no issues in this girl’s home to ‘explain’ the bad behavior. Not sure if it helps to understand what drives it, but what gives? I find it to be pretty creepy.). Did you talk to your son about avoiding the bully and his accomplice, or did your son do this all on his own? I feel caught between letting her figure stufff out (although not totally on her own) and feeling the need to coach and offer suggestions.
Anonymous
Post 11/17/2017 11:02     Subject: Help me help my DD navigate frenemy
Agree about the need to make other friends. My son had a situation somewhat like this when he was around 5th-7th grade (a kid who was not his friend but tried to insert himself into DS's social plans whenever he made plans with other kids and to exclude DS whenever this kid had plans). The kid would also talk negatively about DS to other kids. DS finally just stopped all contact outside of school and started focusing a lot more on his sports friends. The kid reacted negatively for a while by stepping up his attempts to exclude DS and say negative things about him, but DS eventually just made a whole new circle of friends.

Over time, DS also realized that other kids in the original circle were kind of enabling this stuff -- one friend in particular (a girl) that DS considered one of his best friends. In middle school, DS finally realized that he was still trying to be friends but she was answering about one in three of his texts and also making sure that DS knew when she was hanging out with the frenemy boy. Once DS realized that she wasn't really his friend, he totally stop contact with her too. He was friendly when they saw each other at school but never texted or initiated any contact. When she invited him to hang out he replied regretfully that he had other plans whether he did or not. It was a somewhat tough year or so socially while that happened, but DS ended up MUCH happier and started to blossom socially as he challenged himself to hang out with different kids. Once high school started, his skill at getting out of his comfort zone and making new friends really helped him to make a lot of new friends. Meanwhile that group from ES/MS is largely all still in the same somewhat dysfunctional little group.
Anonymous
Post 11/17/2017 09:19     Subject: Help me help my DD navigate frenemy
Go purchase these two books and read them cover to cover.

Untangled: Guiding Teenage Girls Through the Seven Transitions into Adulthood

Queen Bees and Wannabes, 3rd Edition: Helping Your Daughter Survive Cliques, Gossip, Boys, and the New Realities of Girl World

These will help you understand a lot of what is happening - and what will happen.

WRT the girl - this is typical, she is controlling your daughter in a way that if you replaced the language and she was dating this person you would say it was abusive.

You need to go to the school and use the right words and be very specific in what you want. "Lunch bunch" with this girl will not do anything. Lunch time and Recess is school time. The school needs to be engaged and come up with solutions. Telling your daughter that she should just be by herself and read is not OK. She is being bullied.
Anonymous
Post 11/17/2017 09:18     Subject: Help me help my DD navigate frenemy
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:My DD is also in 5th grade and sometimes the social complications between friends group can get out of control.

Really you cannot change another person's behavior, but you can change your reactions to it. This is true for 5th graders and for full grown women.

You can decide not to be offended, you can decide not to dwell. Its very hard but its entirely do-able, it just takes practice and more interesting diversions. Good luck.


PP makes a good point. Your DD needs to get to the point where she can dismiss the nastiness as "frenamy's drama" and move right along with nothing more than an eye roll. You might also suggest she talk to the guidance counselor as they are experts at this stuff.


OP here, yes, of course, I wish this were easy. Some find this harder than others (I’m convinced we are hardwired.). Advice on how to coach this?!?


I am last pp above, saying it will resolve fast enough. My DD is what you would call social butterfly. Yes, expect more drama. What she does is she lets it roll off her. She forgives people pretty fast too. I don't have this skill like she does. One thing I do notice is that my DD(now 16, but was like this for a long time) has ton of "friends" and no enemies. She doesn't hold a grudge. I've tried a few times to tell her to see why kid is mean, and often it is some issue in the family, something to feel defensive about. Example, one "mean" girl had a Dad that was an alcoholic and even DD heard him lashing out. I don't know if this helps, but it works for my DD. Just last week, she heard about few girls gossiping about her, and I was more upset about it than her. She has a healthier way of approaching these things, just doesn't care and keeps on smiling. I guess my DD is confident and doesn't let it bother her? plus she has made a huge circle of kids her friends, and has done this since 3 years old.
Anonymous
Post 11/17/2017 09:09     Subject: Help me help my DD navigate frenemy
You should know that in middle school, many elementary friendship switch, change or they have completely new friends. Unless this girl is bullying your DD, you should leave it alone. It will resolve on its own.
Anonymous
Post 11/17/2017 09:04     Subject: Help me help my DD navigate frenemy
See if your daughter is ok with you talking to the teacher. Again, your child is being bullied. You shouldn't take this lightly.The teacher can do things like have your daughter sit in a different group in class and the teacher can talk to the bully about the way she treats your child. Then outside of school, help your dd make other friends with play dates and activities.
Anonymous
Post 11/17/2017 08:51     Subject: Help me help my DD navigate frenemy
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:My DD is also in 5th grade and sometimes the social complications between friends group can get out of control.

Really you cannot change another person's behavior, but you can change your reactions to it. This is true for 5th graders and for full grown women.

You can decide not to be offended, you can decide not to dwell. Its very hard but its entirely do-able, it just takes practice and more interesting diversions. Good luck.


PP makes a good point. Your DD needs to get to the point where she can dismiss the nastiness as "frenamy's drama" and move right along with nothing more than an eye roll. You might also suggest she talk to the guidance counselor as they are experts at this stuff.


OP here, yes, of course, I wish this were easy. Some find this harder than others (I’m convinced we are hardwired.). Advice on how to coach this?!?


Part of the formula is what you model. I've seen some mom's catastrophize these dramas such that the are magnified rather than put in perspective. I'm not saying they don't matter, they do, and I think you should by all means get the school involved if you need help putting an end to bulllying. But not every minor incident of meanness should be treated like the sky is falling. Social slights should not define your DD's day and you can send that message by tempering your reaction a bit, while still offering support. I think an appropriate response to a minor slight or mean incident would be. "That must have hurt your feelings. If I were you, I'm not sure I'd want to spend time with friends like that." or "Girls sure are mean and stupid sometimes aren't they" or "Yuck. How did you to react to that?" I think you want to be matter of fact and don't create a second dram discussing the first. Also, get the Queen Bees and Wannabees book ASAP as it has some good concrete advice.
Anonymous
Post 11/17/2017 08:36     Subject: Help me help my DD navigate frenemy
Thanks - we’ve tried both routes but I’m he only one she will confide in. No clinical anxiety, per the counselor, but if I was her age, feeling squeezed out would make me feel pretty anxious, too. Play dates with girls outside this group is helping, but recess time seems to be pretty set in stone in terms of groups who play together. It’s dififuclt at that age to switch or get into another one.
Anonymous
Post 11/17/2017 08:21     Subject: Help me help my DD navigate frenemy
OP, you mentioned anxiety twice. Not sure if you meant this is in the clinical sense, but if she's seeing a therapist by chance, this could be a topic to discuss. Event if she's not in therapy, maybe there's a school counselor who could help her strategize about friendships? This was the sort of topic where my DD benefitted from having an adult other than mom who was on her side and helping her think through things.
Anonymous
Post 11/17/2017 08:16     Subject: Help me help my DD navigate frenemy
Anonymous wrote:I would encourage her to make new friends outside of this group.i would also tell her it's okay to spend time on her own as she seeks new friendships. Better on one's own than subjected to toxic behavior.


THIS. My daughter is finding this to be very true as she goes through some friendship dramas of her own. I make myself available to her all the time for outings to the movies, mall, hikes, etc., so she always at least has me to do things with. I'm sure she'd prefer a nice friend to hang out with, but she knows I'm always here for her in the meantime.
Anonymous
Post 11/16/2017 20:34     Subject: Help me help my DD navigate frenemy
OP here, yes, I agree with PP. Also, she told me today that it’s not just unkind words, but making her feel left out, which sounds orchestrated. I’ve tried to suggest that she read at recess, for example, or do something on her own,, but she seems to reject my advice when I try to say just do something on your own. Sadly, she is really into he other friends who are nice to her absent this one and seem to genuinely like her a lot. They just aren’t mature enough to help stand up for her or make sure she’s not left out. Again, trying to expand beyond, but it takes time...
Anonymous
Post 11/16/2017 19:23     Subject: Help me help my DD navigate frenemy
Anonymous wrote:I would encourage her to make new friends outside of this group.i would also tell her it's okay to spend time on her own as she seeks new friendships. Better on one's own than subjected to toxic behavior.


This. Her "friend" is a controlling bully. She is being bullied. Make sure that girl isn't in the same class as your daughter next year.
Anonymous
Post 11/16/2017 18:27     Subject: Help me help my DD navigate frenemy
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:My DD is also in 5th grade and sometimes the social complications between friends group can get out of control.

Really you cannot change another person's behavior, but you can change your reactions to it. This is true for 5th graders and for full grown women.

You can decide not to be offended, you can decide not to dwell. Its very hard but its entirely do-able, it just takes practice and more interesting diversions. Good luck.


PP makes a good point. Your DD needs to get to the point where she can dismiss the nastiness as "frenamy's drama" and move right along with nothing more than an eye roll. You might also suggest she talk to the guidance counselor as they are experts at this stuff.


OP here, yes, of course, I wish this were easy. Some find this harder than others (I’m convinced we are hardwired.). Advice on how to coach this?!?
Anonymous
Post 11/16/2017 18:06     Subject: Help me help my DD navigate frenemy
I would encourage her to make new friends outside of this group.i would also tell her it's okay to spend time on her own as she seeks new friendships. Better on one's own than subjected to toxic behavior.