I posted above and recommended the Queen Bees and Wannabees book. I've also observed that the same girls that were the ring leaders in 5th grade of excluding (one who even articulated that she wanted to be a mean girl because that's how you become popular) have invested a lot of time and energy into maintaining their status in MS. By ninth grade, they are the girls who have dumped several "best friends" to move up whatever they perceive to be the social ladder. They are not very involved in sports or other time-consuming activities and they are already drinking and vaping. They are spending a lot of time at "parties" which they organize themselves and then invite their tight knit group to and talk about endlessly on social media. My dd already perceives that they are no longer the "popular crowd" but the "party crowd.

OP here. Thanks for all the feedback. I will say those that are labeled as "popular" seem to have an air of confidence. I'v asked my DD if they are nice and she says they aren't mean to her, but she doesn't want to hang around them a lot b/c they talk about other people. I feel OK about that b/c she is being true to herself and she has always (for better or for worse) skewed a little more mature for her age. I do hope what has transpired recently passes. I'm sure I had my moments growing up, but that was a long time ago and my memories are fuzzy. I'm not going to interfere unless things get too tough for her to work through. I will order those books, though.

In the boys world, the athletic kids are the most popular and often likely to be exclusive. I know some MS boys who are absolutely horrible kids, and yet they are "popular" because they are good at a mainstream sport. Always been like that and sucks, but eventually their athletic prowess won't carry such weight.

Kids whose popularity is based on high status stuff are the same ones who will have trouble adjusting to adulthood because they their lifestyle can't be sustained on entry level incomes, but go right ahead and buy those iPhones and Montcler jackets for your fifth grader. Just plan on also providing a status car at 16, a status college with sorority membership, a status apartment with Pottery Barn furnishings for sophomore year and beyond. You'll also need to furnish downpayment on house and private school tuition for her kids.

Anonymous wrote:

Is this really true though? Doesn't the clique-behavior belie a lack of confidence and immaturity? After all, we are trying to teach kids to be inclusive, kind to everyone, sincere, confident in themselves, and secure enough to take an unpopular stand for what it right. Isn't the kid who confidently sits at the "unpopular table," who recognizes bullying for what it is, and isn't afraid to talk to everyone more sell-possesed and mature than the Queen Bees? Aren't these the social skills mature adults value?

Sometimes, maybe even most of the time, the Queen Bee and cool kid behavior is a sign of insecurity and immaturity. A PP noted that a lot of this happens between 5th and 7th, and some kids aren't a part of it. Teachers recognize those kids as "above the fray," "mature for their age" (in a good way), confident in who they are and light years ahead socially (even though they will be the target of immature social bullying in these middle years).

PP you're responding to. OK, I don't know whether the "popular" kids ARE self-confident. I do know that they act self-confident.

Also, the "popular" kids don't have a monopoly on being (or acting) self-confident. There are certainly also self-confident non-"popular" kids. There are also (according to my non-"popular" kids) kids who are ""popular" but nice."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This isn't true of ALL girls. Your daughter needs to be looking for higher quality friends. The kids in music and theater seem to have less of this. Popular doesn't mean well liked, it just means well known. The best lesson she can learn is if someone doesn't treat her well then they are out of her life.

This. The "popular" kids are self-confident and have high-status stuff and advanced skills at social dynamics. Why kids call this "popular", I don't know, but they do.

The good news is that at big enough schools, there are enough non-"popular" kids that non-"popular" kids can just ignore the "popular" kids and find their own people.

Is this really true though? Doesn't the clique-behavior belie a lack of confidence and immaturity? After all, we are trying to teach kids to be inclusive, kind to everyone, sincere, confident in themselves, and secure enough to take an unpopular stand for what it right. Isn't the kid who confidently sits at the "unpopular table," who recognizes bullying for what it is, and isn't afraid to talk to everyone more sell-possesed and mature than the Queen Bees? Aren't these the social skills mature adults value?

Sometimes, maybe even most of the time, the Queen Bee and cool kid behavior is a sign of insecurity and immaturity. A PP noted that a lot of this happens between 5th and 7th, and some kids aren't a part of it. Teachers recognize those kids as "above the fray," "mature for their age" (in a good way), confident in who they are and light years ahead socially (even though they will be the target of immature social bullying in these middle years).

Are you analyzing other people's children? That sounds crazy. I see what you are saying, but really, mind your own kid and teach him how to find their people to hang out with. It's not about negative this or that - its about helping your own kid.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This isn't true of ALL girls. Your daughter needs to be looking for higher quality friends. The kids in music and theater seem to have less of this. Popular doesn't mean well liked, it just means well known. The best lesson she can learn is if someone doesn't treat her well then they are out of her life.

In my experience, it was universally true because it is developmentally appropriate at that age to start forming cliques. It's not nice behavior but even the nicest kids with the best parents do it. It doesn't mean that the kid will be like that forever. It's away of trying on different personas that all kids will go through because again development.

+1

So let the kid grow, and you let your kid grow by finding nicer friends. Done.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This isn't true of ALL girls. Your daughter needs to be looking for higher quality friends. The kids in music and theater seem to have less of this. Popular doesn't mean well liked, it just means well known. The best lesson she can learn is if someone doesn't treat her well then they are out of her life.

This. The "popular" kids are self-confident and have high-status stuff and advanced skills at social dynamics. Why kids call this "popular", I don't know, but they do.

The good news is that at big enough schools, there are enough non-"popular" kids that non-"popular" kids can just ignore the "popular" kids and find their own people.

Is this really true though? Doesn't the clique-behavior belie a lack of confidence and immaturity? After all, we are trying to teach kids to be inclusive, kind to everyone, sincere, confident in themselves, and secure enough to take an unpopular stand for what it right. Isn't the kid who confidently sits at the "unpopular table," who recognizes bullying for what it is, and isn't afraid to talk to everyone more sell-possesed and mature than the Queen Bees? Aren't these the social skills mature adults value?

Sometimes, maybe even most of the time, the Queen Bee and cool kid behavior is a sign of insecurity and immaturity. A PP noted that a lot of this happens between 5th and 7th, and some kids aren't a part of it. Teachers recognize those kids as "above the fray," "mature for their age" (in a good way), confident in who they are and light years ahead socially (even though they will be the target of immature social bullying in these middle years).

Anonymous wrote:This isn't true of ALL girls. Your daughter needs to be looking for higher quality friends. The kids in music and theater seem to have less of this. Popular doesn't mean well liked, it just means well known. The best lesson she can learn is if someone doesn't treat her well then they are out of her life.

In my experience, it was universally true because it is developmentally appropriate at that age to start forming cliques. It's not nice behavior but even the nicest kids with the best parents do it. It doesn't mean that the kid will be like that forever. It's away of trying on different personas that all kids will go through because again development.

9:52: On Halloween I was driving my son to a friend's house and a big group of middle school girls crossed the road dressed alike. My immediate thought was: who are they excluding? Someone is about to have a very bad night.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This isn't true of ALL girls. Your daughter needs to be looking for higher quality friends. The kids in music and theater seem to have less of this. Popular doesn't mean well liked, it just means well known. The best lesson she can learn is if someone doesn't treat her well then they are out of her life.

This. The "popular" kids are self-confident and have high-status stuff and advanced skills at social dynamics. Why kids call this "popular", I don't know, but they do.

The good news is that at big enough schools, there are enough non-"popular" kids that non-"popular" kids can just ignore the "popular" kids and find their own people.

+1

If you insist on helicoptering, the best gift you can give your child is the ability to find friends that want him or her around!

Anonymous wrote:This isn't true of ALL girls. Your daughter needs to be looking for higher quality friends. The kids in music and theater seem to have less of this. Popular doesn't mean well liked, it just means well known. The best lesson she can learn is if someone doesn't treat her well then they are out of her life.

This. The "popular" kids are self-confident and have high-status stuff and advanced skills at social dynamics. Why kids call this "popular", I don't know, but they do.

The good news is that at big enough schools, there are enough non-"popular" kids that non-"popular" kids can just ignore the "popular" kids and find their own people.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be a lot of exclusion or random meanness hailing in the 5th grade at my daughter’s school. It started with kids being label as popular. How does that happen in ES? Apparently, those girls, “like to gossip and talk to boys a lot.” I’m not sure what that even means as I heard it from another girl. Then, some girls started finding ways to have lunch outside the cafeteria, but act secretive about it when asked. I’m not talking about a lunch club with the guidance counselor. They were using it to be exclusive. The teachers shut down one of their lunch clubs, but it doesn’t seem to have gone away. Just recently, my daughter’s BFF came up to her with and ther girl and said things meant to hurt her feelings and exclude her. I tried to figure out if there was a trigger, but it seems just random. WTH is going on? What is my roll and how do I help my daughter navigate what seems to be a much more complicated social world?

In 5th girls aren't "finding ways to have lunch outside the cafeteria." They are either allowed to or invited to do so. That sentence makes me think you are believing how other girls are interpreting it. I'm guessing there is another side to this. (I know once a kid thought my daughter was excluding her but her class had been instructed to try not talking for an hour to see what it felt like to have some disabilities, like cerebral palsy. It was all straightened out but the kids got a lesson on not assuming. It's wise not to champion your kids' causes based solely on their word.

+1

^ meant to say mom of 7th and 9th grade girls

Mom of 9th and 7th graders, this is a developmental stage that peaks in 7th.

Someone recommended this book "Untangled" about girls' developmental stages and it's been very useful to me.

One thing to note is that what your kid describes as "popular" is actually "powerful" as in, socially powerful--girls using threats of exclusion or shaming to advance/maintain their social status, and keep the other girls non-differentiated. Powerful girls in these younger ages are learning that this works for them, but they have not yet figured out the long-term repercussions of this behavior...

when kids are younger, they are cowed into line by this; by 10th, they are mature enough to say "I don't care if Larla shames me, she's a bully and I'm not (conforming)." And Larla's social status drops and that's when Larla learns that she is actually not liked much; i.e., not powerful anymore and was never popular (in the true sense of the word).

My 7th grader just got a load of this at Halloween. Her basketball coach, who is a young guy not skilled in girl development, referred to her as "my best player" in front of the other girls. Well that's practically like assigning a mean girl to get my DD back in line, socially.

The girls had a Halloween party and all dressed in the same outfit and did not tell my DD. We drove up to a swarm of identically-dressed girls, and it was so shocking I stopped the car short and asked DD if she knew about this and if she was ok with it, before letting her out. Fortunately my kid has other friends and is psychologically protected from this group for a variety of (non-relevant) reasons, so she put up with it.

As a side note, I'm glad you posted your OP, because I decided while writing this post that I'm going to get our coach that book. He is very committed to his teams and each girl individually, but he doesn't understand that some things that motivate boys just backfire on girls. In my example above, if it were a boy's team, being called out as the best may incentivize a teammate to both admire that kid, and practice harder and better to become the best like that kid. But with girls, who are in a "cocooning" stage and want to blend in their group, any call-outs are embarrassing and unhelpful.