NP. I don't think Esther Perel is an infidelity apologist. IMO, she just offers some explanation for why many cheaters cheat, ie, because they're often looking to for fresh desire in a stale situation. She says couples need to work hard to keep things fresh to remove the temptation to get freshness by cheating. Indeed, I think she's a proponent of open marriages for many couples, and hints that her marriage is open, because that ensures the freshness, but she thinks they need to be honest and agree to that structure.

As much as people are blaming the husband, it will not work unless the OP accepts some of the blame as well. As she pointed out, she wasn't emotionally available for a good amount of time. Does she just get a pass on that?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am pp that recommended Esther Perel. I am also someone who was cheated on and left/divorced. Some marriages are worth saving and sounds like OP isn’t ready to throw up two fingas for hers. Esther Perel seems to focus on how to move past the infidelity and have a better? or at least a different marriage. Focusing on the hurt and betrayal and gaslighting and so on will not help OP stay married IMO it will just make/keep her miserable for however long she chooses to remain married to her children’s father.

Sooooooo she should just bury the hurt and betrayal and gaslighting deep down and slap on a happy face? Maybe some booze or Prozac? The H should be doing backflips to reassure her and bring her peace. We know he's not doing that. Even Esther Perel can't make him.

She has to control those things she can control and that is HER. OP says she doesn’t want to break up her family. Being hurt and pissed off at her husband for the next however many years is good for no one especially OP. Even if she ultimately decided to leave staying hurt and angry is not healthy, trust me I know. At some point you have to decide it happened and you will get over it and stay married or get over it and divorce and in both cases get on with the business of living.

That may be, but the wound of infidelity is traumatic = PTSD. She can't just get over it; it will take time.

I think some of Perel's remarks are callous. Not all ideas floated by therapists are sound.

The cheater made a unilateral decision to cheat. All marriages have problems or areas of disagreement at some point. So one partner decides that's justification for cheating while the other partner is in the same marriage with the same problems, yet does not cheat. Dr. Phil says you don't solve problems within a marriage by going outside of the marriage. Shirley Glass, who wrote Not Just Friends, said that infidelity is the nuclear option.

To answer OP's question, Peggy Vaughn, author of The Monogamy Myth, and a website about infidelity (dearpeggy.com) writes that it takes a minimum of 2-3 years, and that's if the spouse who had the affair is putting forth their best effort. Trust needs to be rebuilt by the cheater, and that happens one step at a time.
http://dearpeggy.com/2-affairs/com032.html

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am pp that recommended Esther Perel. I am also someone who was cheated on and left/divorced. Some marriages are worth saving and sounds like OP isn’t ready to throw up two fingas for hers. Esther Perel seems to focus on how to move past the infidelity and have a better? or at least a different marriage. Focusing on the hurt and betrayal and gaslighting and so on will not help OP stay married IMO it will just make/keep her miserable for however long she chooses to remain married to her children’s father.

Sooooooo she should just bury the hurt and betrayal and gaslighting deep down and slap on a happy face? Maybe some booze or Prozac? The H should be doing backflips to reassure her and bring her peace. We know he's not doing that. Even Esther Perel can't make him.

She has to control those things she can control and that is HER. OP says she doesn’t want to break up her family. Being hurt and pissed off at her husband for the next however many years is good for no one especially OP. Even if she ultimately decided to leave staying hurt and angry is not healthy, trust me I know. At some point you have to decide it happened and you will get over it and stay married or get over it and divorce and in both cases get on with the business of living.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Great post 12:18. I totally agree. I appreciate you explicitly stating how being cheated upon is sexual coersion. It happened to me, including unprotected sex when I was pregnant. It's just horrifying and in still with with the effects, which yes could probably be classified as PTSD. anyway thanks for getting it and validating my experience.


And pp, no trouble in a marriage means you can deny your spouse their own agency and risk their health, so f*ck off.

F*ck off for disagreeing with you? Aren't you a peach.

Not every infidelity jeopardizes the health of the other spouse. Some are emotional entanglements and so on.

Sounds like your husband jeopardized the health of you and your child. I guess you really know how to pick 'em!

See how nice a personal attack feels?

I just told you to f*ck off because YOU said this to PP:Yes, I’m sure it was easy and felt good for you to run to friends and therapists who will sanctify you and demonize your spouse.

I don't think that comes close how nasty you just were to me.

It's not nasty, it's the truth that many conversations about infidelity are overly simplified because it is politically correct to demonize the cheater and sanctify the cheated-on spouse. Sorry that is too much for you to grasp. The truth is that many people privately wonder about what more there is to the story when they hear about infidelity. They won't say it though. Affairs happen in both happy and lousy marriages. They sometimes happen because of flaws within the cheater, and they sometimes happen because of flaws within the marriage. Sometimes the relationship can be saved, sometimes it can't be saved. Sometimes the relationship is worth saving, sometimes it isn't. People who don't like Perel generally feel that way because they have only read tidbits of her work and they don't feel they get their "due". In other words, they want to be further elevated. These are often the same people whose cheating spouses never took responsibility and validated the hurt they caused, so they end up trying to get that validation from third parties.

You are no expert simply because you got pregnant by a guy who risked your child's life and your life.

Perel writes about how there is definitely different levels of betrayals, and risking the life of your child is a betrayal of the highest order. I cannot imagine any circumstance in which that would be okay. But, you don't know the OPs situation, and not all affairs necessarily do that. You don't have a right to dismiss the work of an accomplished therapist whose work you haven't even fully read, and whose work might be able to help OP. Perel writes extensively about betrayal and its devastation. Many cheated-on spouses find her work helpful.

Dude, you personally attacked two betrayed spouses on this thread. Being and championing an infidelity apologist is the least of your problems.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Great post 12:18. I totally agree. I appreciate you explicitly stating how being cheated upon is sexual coersion. It happened to me, including unprotected sex when I was pregnant. It's just horrifying and in still with with the effects, which yes could probably be classified as PTSD. anyway thanks for getting it and validating my experience.


And pp, no trouble in a marriage means you can deny your spouse their own agency and risk their health, so f*ck off.

F*ck off for disagreeing with you? Aren't you a peach.

Not every infidelity jeopardizes the health of the other spouse. Some are emotional entanglements and so on.

Sounds like your husband jeopardized the health of you and your child. I guess you really know how to pick 'em!

See how nice a personal attack feels?

I just told you to f*ck off because YOU said this to PP:Yes, I’m sure it was easy and felt good for you to run to friends and therapists who will sanctify you and demonize your spouse.

I don't think that comes close how nasty you just were to me.

It's not nasty, it's the truth that many conversations about infidelity are overly simplified because it is politically correct to demonize the cheater and sanctify the cheated-on spouse. Sorry that is too much for you to grasp. The truth is that many people privately wonder about what more there is to the story when they hear about infidelity. They won't say it though. Affairs happen in both happy and lousy marriages. They sometimes happen because of flaws within the cheater, and they sometimes happen because of flaws within the marriage. Sometimes the relationship can be saved, sometimes it can't be saved. Sometimes the relationship is worth saving, sometimes it isn't. People who don't like Perel generally feel that way because they have only read tidbits of her work and they don't feel they get their "due". In other words, they want to be further elevated. These are often the same people whose cheating spouses never took responsibility and validated the hurt they caused, so they end up trying to get that validation from third parties.

You are no expert simply because you got pregnant by a guy who risked your child's life and your life.

Perel writes about how there is definitely different levels of betrayals, and risking the life of your child is a betrayal of the highest order. I cannot imagine any circumstance in which that would be okay. But, you don't know the OPs situation, and not all affairs necessarily do that. You don't have a right to dismiss the work of an accomplished therapist whose work you haven't even fully read, and whose work might be able to help OP. Perel writes extensively about betrayal and its devastation. Many cheated-on spouses find her work helpful.

This was me years ago but my (now X) DH left for his AP so I didn't have to make a decision. But I know I would have hung in there for a long time. I would recommend individual and couples therapy. It sounds like you have a lot of anger (understandably!) that can be very hard to "get over" but if you are both 100% "in" and willing to try, I think you can do it. What I don't think you can do is try to stifle it and pretend that everything is fine in order to keep the peace/move forward. You need to deal with this trauma and explore if he's really grown/learned from this such that you can trust him again.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Great post 12:18. I totally agree. I appreciate you explicitly stating how being cheated upon is sexual coersion. It happened to me, including unprotected sex when I was pregnant. It's just horrifying and in still with with the effects, which yes could probably be classified as PTSD. anyway thanks for getting it and validating my experience.


And pp, no trouble in a marriage means you can deny your spouse their own agency and risk their health, so f*ck off.

F*ck off for disagreeing with you? Aren't you a peach.

Not every infidelity jeopardizes the health of the other spouse. Some are emotional entanglements and so on.

Sounds like your husband jeopardized the health of you and your child. I guess you really know how to pick 'em!

See how nice a personal attack feels?

I just told you to f*ck off because YOU said this to PP:Yes, I’m sure it was easy and felt good for you to run to friends and therapists who will sanctify you and demonize your spouse.

I don't think that comes close how nasty you just were to me.

Anonymous wrote:I am pp that recommended Esther Perel. I am also someone who was cheated on and left/divorced. Some marriages are worth saving and sounds like OP isn’t ready to throw up two fingas for hers. Esther Perel seems to focus on how to move past the infidelity and have a better? or at least a different marriage. Focusing on the hurt and betrayal and gaslighting and so on will not help OP stay married IMO it will just make/keep her miserable for however long she chooses to remain married to her children’s father.

Sooooooo she should just bury the hurt and betrayal and gaslighting deep down and slap on a happy face? Maybe some booze or Prozac? The H should be doing backflips to reassure her and bring her peace. We know he's not doing that. Even Esther Perel can't make him.

Anonymous wrote:Great post 12:18. I totally agree. I appreciate you explicitly stating how being cheated upon is sexual coersion. It happened to me, including unprotected sex when I was pregnant. It's just horrifying and in still with with the effects, which yes could probably be classified as PTSD. anyway thanks for getting it and validating my experience.


And pp, no trouble in a marriage means you can deny your spouse their own agency and risk their health, so f*ck off.

F*ck off for disagreeing with you? Aren't you a peach.

Not every infidelity jeopardizes the health of the other spouse. Some are emotional entanglements and so on.

Sounds like your husband jeopardized the health of you and your child. I guess you really know how to pick 'em!

See how nice a personal attack feels?

I am pp that recommended Esther Perel. I am also someone who was cheated on and left/divorced. Some marriages are worth saving and sounds like OP isn’t ready to throw up two fingas for hers. Esther Perel seems to focus on how to move past the infidelity and have a better? or at least a different marriage. Focusing on the hurt and betrayal and gaslighting and so on will not help OP stay married IMO it will just make/keep her miserable for however long she chooses to remain married to her children’s father.

Great post 12:18. I totally agree. I appreciate you explicitly stating how being cheated upon is sexual coersion. It happened to me, including unprotected sex when I was pregnant. It's just horrifying and in still with with the effects, which yes could probably be classified as PTSD. anyway thanks for getting it and validating my experience.


And pp, no trouble in a marriage means you can deny your spouse their own agency and risk their health, so f*ck off.

PP, while I respect the experience you have, you could learn a thing or two about respecting the many people Perel’s work has helped.

She released a book on Tuesday, and I’m almost finished with it. She writes extensively in it about how toxic deception is, and about respecting the experience of the victim spouse. I doubt you’re as familiar with her work as you claim to be.

Perel’s work is for couples that actually have something worth saving. She is not necessarily particularly helpful to women who were cheated on by a “narcissistic pr!ck”, as she calls some cheating men. Perhaps you were married to one of these men. In that case, I can understand why you can’t possibly identify with couples who are better situated to work through a crisis than you were.

Perel’s work is helpful to cheated-on spouses who are capable of self-examination. OP indicated that the marriage was troubled, overall, before the affair. Yes, I’m sure it was easy and felt good for you to run to friends and therapists who will sanctify you and demonize your spouse.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You should listen/read Esther Perel. She talks about marriages recovering from infidelity. Basically the marriage you had is over. You need to move forward with creating the new marriage with your husband based around who you two are now.

Also, seeing a therapist might help you work through your issues and figure out how to move forward.

+1

I second the Esther Perel recommendation.

And I second the PP above who thinks Esther Perel is terrible.

Perel completely fails to recognize the abusive nature of infidelity and it's traumatic impact on the victim spouse. More and more psychologists are recognizing that infidelity is a kind of emotional abuse that often involves verbal abuse (when the cheating partner tells the victim all the negative things she has done to cause or deserve the cheating), gas lighting (when the perpetrator spouse tries to convince the victim spuse that what the victim sees and feels isn't real or doesn't mean what it appears to mean) and out right lying and denial. All of these are forms of abuse. Checkout loveisrespect.org.

More and more psychologists are now recognizing that repeated infidelity has a cycle that is very similar to the overall cycle of domestic violence -- a tension phase, the explosion of the discovery of the infidelity, some form of attempt at reconciliation or honeymoon phase, etc. And many aspects of the power and control wheel are applicable to infidelity.

More also recognize that infidelity, particularly repeated infidelity over a period of time with denial upon being revealed, can cause a complex post-traumatic stress reaction.

Infidelity is also a form of sexual coercion -- the victim partner has typically only consented to sex in the context of monogamy, but the perpetrator partner typically hides the fact that he/she is no longer willing to be monogamous and continues to take sex from the victim partner. The victim spouse is consenting to one kind of sex (monogamous) while the cheating partner is taking non-monogamous sex without consent. Remember that consensual sex is a relatively recent thing in the history of marital sex -- marital rape was a man's right until about 1973 and really didn't become a crime in all 50 states until the early to mid 1990s.

Perel ignores entirely these aspects of the victim spouse's experience. She favors a construct that non-monogamy is to be expected, and openly implies that she has had "several marriages" with the same person...implying that there has been repeated cheating by one or both partners in her marriage.

Personally, I favor the idea of explicit consent. Two people can have any kind of marriage they like, as long as they agree explicitly ahead of time without coercion. And they can ask for a change in the terms of the marriage, explicitly and in advance without coercion.

But, having an affair in secret without the knowledge of your spouse and having sex with your monogamy-expecting spouse at the same time is sexual coercion. I'm not sure anyone can or should get over that. I left my cheating husband because I realized that I would never advise my daughter to remain in a relationship where the other person had so little care for her.

Is he over you being emotionally distant for years?