Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP I think that's kind of a minor detail. I don't think you're going to see a huge number of AA and Hispanic students even applying to the top schools because for many the type of education they've received up to high school would not make them competitive in the first place.

The really sad data point was some of the data from state flagship schools, especially in states that have a significant AA population. I don't understand what is going on there.

We really need minority populations to go to college and graduate because otherwise we are writing off the portion of our population that needs to be working and productive to keep our country going. I am somewhat concerned about this as a 50 year old and I think we sometimes miss the forest for the trees in this discussion.

I agree with you, but I disagree that PP's point about statistics it is a minor detail in terms of OP's misleading title. That data set actually doesn't show anything about affirmative action in admissions because it isn't limited to the pool of applicants. Since the data is compared to the entire US population, it shows that relative to the population, fewer black and hispanic kids are going to college. The reason for this does not begin and end at the college admission officer's desk, and to suggest so (as OP's title does) fails to focus on the bigger issues of what is preventing these kids from getting into the applicant pool in the first place. You can't hold colleges accountable for failing to admit people who can't or didn't apply for whatever reasons (didn't graduate high school, incarceration, already working in field that doesn't require a degree, etc.). You can't fix a problem if you don't focus on it properly. Use the right data to make the right points.

In fact, the cited article isn't really about affirmative action and whether it has "failed":

"Affirmative action increases the numbers of black and Hispanic students at many colleges and universities, but experts say that persistent underrepresentation often stems from equity issues that begin earlier."

To evaluate the effectiveness of affirmative action, you need to use the applicant pool. To determine why various populations are underrepresented in the college applicant pool generally, you need to look way back, earlier in life than a child's 18th year.

The title of the thread, comes directly from the NYTimes article.

No, it doesn't. The article does NOT say that affirmative action in admissions has failed. The article is entitled "Even with Affirmative Action, Blacks and Hispanics are More Under-represented." It CLEARLY says that affirmative action at the college admissions level HELPS, but is not enough:

"Affirmative action increases the numbers of black and Hispanic students at many colleges and universities, but experts say that persistent underrepresentation often stems from equity issues that begin earlier."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP I think that's kind of a minor detail. I don't think you're going to see a huge number of AA and Hispanic students even applying to the top schools because for many the type of education they've received up to high school would not make them competitive in the first place.

The really sad data point was some of the data from state flagship schools, especially in states that have a significant AA population. I don't understand what is going on there.

We really need minority populations to go to college and graduate because otherwise we are writing off the portion of our population that needs to be working and productive to keep our country going. I am somewhat concerned about this as a 50 year old and I think we sometimes miss the forest for the trees in this discussion.

Yes, that's a really excellent point, and one which gets totally lost when people think about college education as an individual investment/entitlement/choice rather than a public good.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not an expert researcher. But the article is missing some data that I want. The article is using college age population for each group as the base. I don't want that to be the only information I'm given. I would like to know what percent of the total population base of each group has even applied to college at all. Does that make sense? Maybe the % is the same if you compare it to total number of college applicants rather than total percent of college age kids of each group.

I think that's a really good point and would make a tremendous difference to the figures. "College aged" is not sufficient it is a blanket group which will include non-English speakers, kids who dropped out of high school aged 16 or thereabouts and those who went into trades with no intention of ever attending college. Its not a detailed enough category.

No, that's entirely the point. You start from the premise that all kids are equally educable. Not that some people by virture of their skin color drop out at higher rates.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not an expert researcher. But the article is missing some data that I want. The article is using college age population for each group as the base. I don't want that to be the only information I'm given. I would like to know what percent of the total population base of each group has even applied to college at all. Does that make sense? Maybe the % is the same if you compare it to total number of college applicants rather than total percent of college age kids of each group.

I think that's a really good point and would make a tremendous difference to the figures. "College aged" is not sufficient it is a blanket group which will include non-English speakers, kids who dropped out of high school aged 16 or thereabouts and those who went into trades with no intention of ever attending college. Its not a detailed enough category.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP I think that's kind of a minor detail. I don't think you're going to see a huge number of AA and Hispanic students even applying to the top schools because for many the type of education they've received up to high school would not make them competitive in the first place.

The really sad data point was some of the data from state flagship schools, especially in states that have a significant AA population. I don't understand what is going on there.

We really need minority populations to go to college and graduate because otherwise we are writing off the portion of our population that needs to be working and productive to keep our country going. I am somewhat concerned about this as a 50 year old and I think we sometimes miss the forest for the trees in this discussion.

I agree with you, but I disagree that PP's point about statistics it is a minor detail in terms of OP's misleading title. That data set actually doesn't show anything about affirmative action in admissions because it isn't limited to the pool of applicants. Since the data is compared to the entire US population, it shows that relative to the population, fewer black and hispanic kids are going to college. The reason for this does not begin and end at the college admission officer's desk, and to suggest so (as OP's title does) fails to focus on the bigger issues of what is preventing these kids from getting into the applicant pool in the first place. You can't hold colleges accountable for failing to admit people who can't or didn't apply for whatever reasons (didn't graduate high school, incarceration, already working in field that doesn't require a degree, etc.). You can't fix a problem if you don't focus on it properly. Use the right data to make the right points.

In fact, the cited article isn't really about affirmative action and whether it has "failed":

"Affirmative action increases the numbers of black and Hispanic students at many colleges and universities, but experts say that persistent underrepresentation often stems from equity issues that begin earlier."

To evaluate the effectiveness of affirmative action, you need to use the applicant pool. To determine why various populations are underrepresented in the college applicant pool generally, you need to look way back, earlier in life than a child's 18th year.

The title of the thread, comes directly from the NYTimes article.

No, it doesn't. The article does NOT say that affirmative action in admissions has failed. The article is entitled "Even with Affirmative Action, Blacks and Hispanics are More Under-represented." It CLEARLY says that affirmative action at the college admissions level HELPS, but is not enough:

"Affirmative action increases the numbers of black and Hispanic students at many colleges and universities, but experts say that persistent underrepresentation often stems from equity issues that begin earlier."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm really surprised with the data from the Ivy League. Harvard 2020 I believe is 15% black.

I would struggle to think any time at Harvard when the black concentration was that high.

Incorrect. It was 11.4%.
http://features.thecrimson.com/2016/freshman-survey/makeup/

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP I think that's kind of a minor detail. I don't think you're going to see a huge number of AA and Hispanic students even applying to the top schools because for many the type of education they've received up to high school would not make them competitive in the first place.

The really sad data point was some of the data from state flagship schools, especially in states that have a significant AA population. I don't understand what is going on there.

We really need minority populations to go to college and graduate because otherwise we are writing off the portion of our population that needs to be working and productive to keep our country going. I am somewhat concerned about this as a 50 year old and I think we sometimes miss the forest for the trees in this discussion.

I agree with you, but I disagree that PP's point about statistics it is a minor detail in terms of OP's misleading title. That data set actually doesn't show anything about affirmative action in admissions because it isn't limited to the pool of applicants. Since the data is compared to the entire US population, it shows that relative to the population, fewer black and hispanic kids are going to college. The reason for this does not begin and end at the college admission officer's desk, and to suggest so (as OP's title does) fails to focus on the bigger issues of what is preventing these kids from getting into the applicant pool in the first place. You can't hold colleges accountable for failing to admit people who can't or didn't apply for whatever reasons (didn't graduate high school, incarceration, already working in field that doesn't require a degree, etc.). You can't fix a problem if you don't focus on it properly. Use the right data to make the right points.

In fact, the cited article isn't really about affirmative action and whether it has "failed":

"Affirmative action increases the numbers of black and Hispanic students at many colleges and universities, but experts say that persistent underrepresentation often stems from equity issues that begin earlier."

To evaluate the effectiveness of affirmative action, you need to use the applicant pool. To determine why various populations are underrepresented in the college applicant pool generally, you need to look way back, earlier in life than a child's 18th year.

The title of the thread, comes directly from the NYTimes article.

Anonymous wrote:I am not an expert researcher. But the article is missing some data that I want. The article is using college age population for each group as the base. I don't want that to be the only information I'm given. I would like to know what percent of the total population base of each group has even applied to college at all. Does that make sense? Maybe the % is the same if you compare it to total number of college applicants rather than total percent of college age kids of each group.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP I think that's kind of a minor detail. I don't think you're going to see a huge number of AA and Hispanic students even applying to the top schools because for many the type of education they've received up to high school would not make them competitive in the first place.

The really sad data point was some of the data from state flagship schools, especially in states that have a significant AA population. I don't understand what is going on there.

We really need minority populations to go to college and graduate because otherwise we are writing off the portion of our population that needs to be working and productive to keep our country going. I am somewhat concerned about this as a 50 year old and I think we sometimes miss the forest for the trees in this discussion.

I agree with you, but I disagree that PP's point about statistics it is a minor detail in terms of OP's misleading title. That data set actually doesn't show anything about affirmative action in admissions because it isn't limited to the pool of applicants. Since the data is compared to the entire US population, it shows that relative to the population, fewer black and hispanic kids are going to college. The reason for this does not begin and end at the college admission officer's desk, and to suggest so (as OP's title does) fails to focus on the bigger issues of what is preventing these kids from getting into the applicant pool in the first place. You can't hold colleges accountable for failing to admit people who can't or didn't apply for whatever reasons (didn't graduate high school, incarceration, already working in field that doesn't require a degree, etc.). You can't fix a problem if you don't focus on it properly. Use the right data to make the right points.

In fact, the cited article isn't really about affirmative action and whether it has "failed":

"Affirmative action increases the numbers of black and Hispanic students at many colleges and universities, but experts say that persistent underrepresentation often stems from equity issues that begin earlier."

To evaluate the effectiveness of affirmative action, you need to use the applicant pool. To determine why various populations are underrepresented in the college applicant pool generally, you need to look way back, earlier in life than a child's 18th year.

Anonymous wrote:PP I think that's kind of a minor detail. I don't think you're going to see a huge number of AA and Hispanic students even applying to the top schools because for many the type of education they've received up to high school would not make them competitive in the first place.

The really sad data point was some of the data from state flagship schools, especially in states that have a significant AA population. I don't understand what is going on there.

We really need minority populations to go to college and graduate because otherwise we are writing off the portion of our population that needs to be working and productive to keep our country going. I am somewhat concerned about this as a 50 year old and I think we sometimes miss the forest for the trees in this discussion.

Anonymous wrote:PP I think that's kind of a minor detail. I don't think you're going to see a huge number of AA and Hispanic students even applying to the top schools because for many the type of education they've received up to high school would not make them competitive in the first place.

The really sad data point was some of the data from state flagship schools, especially in states that have a significant AA population. I don't understand what is going on there.

We really need minority populations to go to college and graduate because otherwise we are writing off the portion of our population that needs to be working and productive to keep our country going. I am somewhat concerned about this as a 50 year old and I think we sometimes miss the forest for the trees in this discussion.