Anonymous
08/25/2017 13:23
Subject: Does APS have a duty of care to move a child if situation in current school untenable?
Anonymous wrote:Maybe folks on this board could weigh in on whether their school has any/many same-sex couples? Then you might have a better idea if this is more normal at one school than another. I don't know of any at our school (ATS), but I'm sure that's not the case everywhere.
The other thing: if these remarks are "hideous but innocent", maybe the kids need to be educated in order to not say anything? Maybe the teachers in his/her classes can address the topic of "some families have two mommies" in a way that makes it normal to the kids. My daughter has a gay uncle, so we started watching "Modern Family" at a fairly young age. I wanted her to grow up with same-sex relationships being no big deal.
I think she was just giving same sex couples as an example of the situation not necessarily the situation she is facing right now.
Anonymous
08/25/2017 13:22
Subject: Does APS have a duty of care to move a child if situation in current school untenable?
Anonymous wrote:OP here. I was away yesterday so I couldn't check in. Thank you for the responses. They help in clarifying the extent of APS's legal duty of care. We are in a very unique situation- hence my reluctance to discuss. The closedt I can give is same sex couple (and much much more complicated but I'll leave it there for now) and school has no others. Child happy with set up at earlier Montessori school but at current public children have made the most hideous yet innocent remarks to child. Cannot blame school per se because they don't control their demographic. Can't blame little children( 5-7 range) because they know no better through no fault of their own. So many remarks that child is just in pain.
Parents chat with child-check
School counselor-check. Child poured out everything from an open ended question.
Private therapist- check
Tears have already started as school drawing near. Doesn't NOT want to go
To answer a PP's question I have gone as high up the chain of command as I can, cap in hand. At first shown compassion and given promise that all will be fine to get child to school where all thought would be best fit- few more with similar parents without compromising academic excellence provided by current school.
Next meeting a lot of back pedaling-space originally available no longer free. given a lot of information about numbers per teacher that are carved in stone. Totally gutted as seemed so positive at earlier meeting.
Now school in 3ish weeks and nothing achieved. Process started in March/April (when requests for transfers due).
So, would it help to engage a lawyer? Has anyone done this and ended up at school that is best fit and not just any school that is not the current school?
Sick to my stomach as I get asked daily now how many more sleeps until school, seeing pain and fear in child's eyes and tears.
How I wish could do private or homeschool
Sure you could retain a lawyer. It's probably the fastest way to find out what your options are and how to pursue them. Don't worry about making the school defensive. They will get over it.
In regards to transferring, did they guarantee you a space in the new school and do you have it in writing? Or did they say something like a transfer could be possible provided there is space available and don't worry because usually there is space available.
In terms of "best fit", it's impossible for a public school system to guarantee you a best fit for your child unless you are referring to a very specialized program that relies on something like an IEP.
Anonymous
08/25/2017 10:40
Subject: Re:Does APS have a duty of care to move a child if situation in current school untenable?
Is your child in a low SES school and you want out due to the ignorance of the parents and their kids?
Anonymous
08/25/2017 10:23
Subject: Does APS have a duty of care to move a child if situation in current school untenable?
Maybe folks on this board could weigh in on whether their school has any/many same-sex couples? Then you might have a better idea if this is more normal at one school than another. I don't know of any at our school (ATS), but I'm sure that's not the case everywhere.
The other thing: if these remarks are "hideous but innocent", maybe the kids need to be educated in order to not say anything? Maybe the teachers in his/her classes can address the topic of "some families have two mommies" in a way that makes it normal to the kids. My daughter has a gay uncle, so we started watching "Modern Family" at a fairly young age. I wanted her to grow up with same-sex relationships being no big deal.
The other thing: if these remarks are "hideous but innocent", maybe the kids need to be educated in order to not say anything? Maybe the teachers in his/her classes can address the topic of "some families have two mommies" in a way that makes it normal to the kids. My daughter has a gay uncle, so we started watching "Modern Family" at a fairly young age. I wanted her to grow up with same-sex relationships being no big deal.
Anonymous
08/25/2017 08:19
Subject: Re:Does APS have a duty of care to move a child if situation in current school untenable?
I am assuming your child does not have an IEP, and the rest of this answer is premised upon that fact-- if child does, answer might be a little different.
I seriously doubt there is any legal duty to move your child to a school of your choosing under this fact pattern. You can consult an attorney if you want- but I would not recommend having the attorney represent you to the school system-- I think that will just make them defensive.
If they were considering a voluntarily transfer- and the school you wanted to switch to is at the point where bringing your child would cause them to have to add another class- they will not do that (and their class ratios are pretty much set in stone- they won't go over them.)
You mention Montessori that worked well. I'm assuming you are either at Drew and want out (in which case you do have the 'right' to go to your neighborhood school.) or you are not at Drew and want it (in which case you probably would be able to unless they are really hitting ratios.)
I actually think APS does cater to individual parents a fair amount- so they probably will transfer your child- just not necessarily to the school of your choosing.
I'm not sure what level you are talking at. Keep in mind who has the power to do what-- talking to the principal won't get you anywhere b/c they can't transfer.
You are probably best off talking to individual school board members- https://www.apsva.us/contact-the-school-board/
If you are being offered a transfer to a school that you don't think has 'academic excellence' you probably will not get very far with them. I would focus on what you think is the best fit for your child and their unique needs vs trashing another school.
I seriously doubt there is any legal duty to move your child to a school of your choosing under this fact pattern. You can consult an attorney if you want- but I would not recommend having the attorney represent you to the school system-- I think that will just make them defensive.
If they were considering a voluntarily transfer- and the school you wanted to switch to is at the point where bringing your child would cause them to have to add another class- they will not do that (and their class ratios are pretty much set in stone- they won't go over them.)
You mention Montessori that worked well. I'm assuming you are either at Drew and want out (in which case you do have the 'right' to go to your neighborhood school.) or you are not at Drew and want it (in which case you probably would be able to unless they are really hitting ratios.)
I actually think APS does cater to individual parents a fair amount- so they probably will transfer your child- just not necessarily to the school of your choosing.
I'm not sure what level you are talking at. Keep in mind who has the power to do what-- talking to the principal won't get you anywhere b/c they can't transfer.
You are probably best off talking to individual school board members- https://www.apsva.us/contact-the-school-board/
If you are being offered a transfer to a school that you don't think has 'academic excellence' you probably will not get very far with them. I would focus on what you think is the best fit for your child and their unique needs vs trashing another school.
Anonymous
08/25/2017 06:56
Subject: Does APS have a duty of care to move a child if situation in current school untenable?
OP, reading your account - are you sure a new school is going to fix the issue? For argument's sake, let's say your child has blue skin. The blue skin is not going to go away and the kids are going to notice and say something because they're kids. Even rich white liberal kids are going to say something. I think holding out the promise to your child that a new school is going to magically be better and no one is going to notice the blue skin may be unfair to the child. The child may just go through it all again.
Without knowing the situation (and I can appreciate why you don't give details) unless it was the teachers and administrators making the remarks and encouraging other kids to do so, I'm not entirely sure what the school liability is and how a different school will help.
Without knowing the situation (and I can appreciate why you don't give details) unless it was the teachers and administrators making the remarks and encouraging other kids to do so, I'm not entirely sure what the school liability is and how a different school will help.
Anonymous
08/25/2017 03:04
Subject: Does APS have a duty of care to move a child if situation in current school untenable?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I can't give too many details because I'm considering lawyering up. I just wanted to understand if and to what extent APS has a duty to transfer child if their current school is causing such misery as to make the child wish they were dead. Is the duty, if it exists, limited to just finding the child a different school or must they also ensure other things such as very good academics which exist in the current school is available in the transfer school?
Is someone has any references, I'd be most grateful
There are transfers allowed for students because of mental health reasons, for which a suicidal child would qualify. However, the parents cannot choose one school over another because of perceived academic advantages. Generally, the school system determines which school is available and appropriate.
I would go through your child's psychologist and see what course of action they recommend.
Wrightslaw.com is an excellent resource for learning what can and cannot happen for students with special needs (a suicidal student qualifies them as having special needs). The law (FAPE) guarantees "appropriate" and not best.
Thank you. Will delve in now to understand my options better
Anonymous
08/25/2017 03:03
Subject: Re:Does APS have a duty of care to move a child if situation in current school untenable?
Anonymous wrote:OP,
If your child is that miserable, I would suggest you go up the chain.
I understand that you are not able to share the details, but, it is difficult to be helpful without them.
Here are some suggestions:
Sit down and write a list of the problems--like you were going to post it here, but I am not suggesting that.
Write down the issue(s).
Describe the incident(s).
Describe the response(s).
Include specific dates whenever possible. (I assume this is some type of bullying situation.)
Be specific.
In other words, do not say that Bobby was "mean" to Sally. Tell exactly what Bobby did say to Sally or did.
If you have any specific documentation, include that, as well. (Emails, etc.)
Be sure and describe how you tried to address the problem with the school and the school's response to you and/or your child.
Then describe the problem your child is having and why changing schools is needed.
If you think you are going to "lawyer up" you will need what I described.
Try to leave emotion out of this on paper. Hysterics never help.
OP Here. Thank you!!
Anonymous
08/25/2017 03:01
Subject: Does APS have a duty of care to move a child if situation in current school untenable?
OP here. I was away yesterday so I couldn't check in. Thank you for the responses. They help in clarifying the extent of APS's legal duty of care. We are in a very unique situation- hence my reluctance to discuss. The closedt I can give is same sex couple (and much much more complicated but I'll leave it there for now) and school has no others. Child happy with set up at earlier Montessori school but at current public children have made the most hideous yet innocent remarks to child. Cannot blame school per se because they don't control their demographic. Can't blame little children( 5-7 range) because they know no better through no fault of their own. So many remarks that child is just in pain.
Parents chat with child-check
School counselor-check. Child poured out everything from an open ended question.
Private therapist- check
Tears have already started as school drawing near. Doesn't NOT want to go
To answer a PP's question I have gone as high up the chain of command as I can, cap in hand. At first shown compassion and given promise that all will be fine to get child to school where all thought would be best fit- few more with similar parents without compromising academic excellence provided by current school.
Next meeting a lot of back pedaling-space originally available no longer free. given a lot of information about numbers per teacher that are carved in stone. Totally gutted as seemed so positive at earlier meeting.
Now school in 3ish weeks and nothing achieved. Process started in March/April (when requests for transfers due).
So, would it help to engage a lawyer? Has anyone done this and ended up at school that is best fit and not just any school that is not the current school?
Sick to my stomach as I get asked daily now how many more sleeps until school, seeing pain and fear in child's eyes and tears.
How I wish could do private or homeschool
Parents chat with child-check
School counselor-check. Child poured out everything from an open ended question.
Private therapist- check
Tears have already started as school drawing near. Doesn't NOT want to go
To answer a PP's question I have gone as high up the chain of command as I can, cap in hand. At first shown compassion and given promise that all will be fine to get child to school where all thought would be best fit- few more with similar parents without compromising academic excellence provided by current school.
Next meeting a lot of back pedaling-space originally available no longer free. given a lot of information about numbers per teacher that are carved in stone. Totally gutted as seemed so positive at earlier meeting.
Now school in 3ish weeks and nothing achieved. Process started in March/April (when requests for transfers due).
So, would it help to engage a lawyer? Has anyone done this and ended up at school that is best fit and not just any school that is not the current school?
Sick to my stomach as I get asked daily now how many more sleeps until school, seeing pain and fear in child's eyes and tears.
How I wish could do private or homeschool
Anonymous
08/23/2017 16:54
Subject: Does APS have a duty of care to move a child if situation in current school untenable?
Anonymous wrote:I can't give too many details because I'm considering lawyering up. I just wanted to understand if and to what extent APS has a duty to transfer child if their current school is causing such misery as to make the child wish they were dead. Is the duty, if it exists, limited to just finding the child a different school or must they also ensure other things such as very good academics which exist in the current school is available in the transfer school?
Is someone has any references, I'd be most grateful
There are transfers allowed for students because of mental health reasons, for which a suicidal child would qualify. However, the parents cannot choose one school over another because of perceived academic advantages. Generally, the school system determines which school is available and appropriate.
I would go through your child's psychologist and see what course of action they recommend.
Wrightslaw.com is an excellent resource for learning what can and cannot happen for students with special needs (a suicidal student qualifies them as having special needs). The law (FAPE) guarantees "appropriate" and not best.
Anonymous
08/23/2017 16:31
Subject: Re:Does APS have a duty of care to move a child if situation in current school untenable?
OP,
If your child is that miserable, I would suggest you go up the chain.
I understand that you are not able to share the details, but, it is difficult to be helpful without them.
Here are some suggestions:
Sit down and write a list of the problems--like you were going to post it here, but I am not suggesting that.
Write down the issue(s).
Describe the incident(s).
Describe the response(s).
Include specific dates whenever possible. (I assume this is some type of bullying situation.)
Be specific.
In other words, do not say that Bobby was "mean" to Sally. Tell exactly what Bobby did say to Sally or did.
If you have any specific documentation, include that, as well. (Emails, etc.)
Be sure and describe how you tried to address the problem with the school and the school's response to you and/or your child.
Then describe the problem your child is having and why changing schools is needed.
If you think you are going to "lawyer up" you will need what I described.
Try to leave emotion out of this on paper. Hysterics never help.
If your child is that miserable, I would suggest you go up the chain.
I understand that you are not able to share the details, but, it is difficult to be helpful without them.
Here are some suggestions:
Sit down and write a list of the problems--like you were going to post it here, but I am not suggesting that.
Write down the issue(s).
Describe the incident(s).
Describe the response(s).
Include specific dates whenever possible. (I assume this is some type of bullying situation.)
Be specific.
In other words, do not say that Bobby was "mean" to Sally. Tell exactly what Bobby did say to Sally or did.
If you have any specific documentation, include that, as well. (Emails, etc.)
Be sure and describe how you tried to address the problem with the school and the school's response to you and/or your child.
Then describe the problem your child is having and why changing schools is needed.
If you think you are going to "lawyer up" you will need what I described.
Try to leave emotion out of this on paper. Hysterics never help.
Anonymous
08/23/2017 16:19
Subject: Does APS have a duty of care to move a child if situation in current school untenable?
Anonymous wrote:I can't give too many details because I'm considering lawyering up. I just wanted to understand if and to what extent APS has a duty to transfer child if their current school is causing such misery as to make the child wish they were dead. Is the duty, if it exists, limited to just finding the child a different school or must they also ensure other things such as very good academics which exist in the current school is available in the transfer school?
Is someone has any references, I'd be most grateful
I would say that if a child's safety is at risk or the environment is so hostile they can not learn, then yes, they might have a "duty" to transfer the student but I would guess it would also be limited to the schools that are geographically close and/or have seats available.
If you used either a safety or hostile environment argument, you couldn't reasonably turn down an offered school unless either conditions were likely to occur as well at the offered school.
As far as test scores, as far as I know there are no unaccredited schools in Arlington so that would mean they have test scores that are satisfactory enough for the state which is likely the same bar the school district would be bound to if they are bound to anything on scores.
Anonymous
08/23/2017 14:47
Subject: Does APS have a duty of care to move a child if situation in current school untenable?
Anonymous wrote:Here's the problem, though: is your child doing something to cause/provoke/worsen the bullying? Not to blame the victim, but in the same way that people often end up in multiple abusive relationships, kids can end up in multiple bullying situations. I'd want to make sure there was some therapy going on to figure things out before risking the same thing happening at a new school. I'd want to make sure it wasn't my kid being overly dramatic before going to all this trouble.
OP hasn't provided enough details for the rest of us to know if bullying is the problem. S/he just said that the school is causing misery.
I agree, though, that OP should seriously consider whether this is a problem that would be limited to the current school before attempting to change schools or "lawyer up."
Anonymous
08/23/2017 14:27
Subject: Does APS have a duty of care to move a child if situation in current school untenable?
Here's the problem, though: is your child doing something to cause/provoke/worsen the bullying? Not to blame the victim, but in the same way that people often end up in multiple abusive relationships, kids can end up in multiple bullying situations. I'd want to make sure there was some therapy going on to figure things out before risking the same thing happening at a new school. I'd want to make sure it wasn't my kid being overly dramatic before going to all this trouble.
Anonymous
08/23/2017 11:01
Subject: Re:Does APS have a duty of care to move a child if situation in current school untenable?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:If my child was so miserable they wanted to die, avoiding the school with slightly lower SOL scores wouldn't even be on my priority list.
Seriously. I'd get my kid into a private school so fast, he wouldn't even feel it. I don't care if it put me in debt forever. No child should be intimating that they want to die- may need to move schools and find a good therapist
This. And I'd homeschool in the meantime. I recently read an article about a child who committed suicide due to bad cyber bullying. Parents were aware and were "researching options" when child died.