Anonymous wrote:Yes to all of the above. I will agree, the cheating was all on me. My decision, my actions. But the dynamic in the marriage -- and the victim in the marriage -- was not just my spouse. We had things going on before that changed the course of our marriage and how we interacted.

I'm not saying it was his fault or her fault or one person caused the other to cheat. They didn't. It was ME making that choice, and I can own that. But my choices were informed by the rest of what was going on in our lives.

Both of us were "victims" if you want to put it that way, and both of us "perpetrators"

Both of you were contributors to the marriage, for good or ill. Contributor is not the same as victim, or perpetrator.

One of you was the perpetrator of the cheating.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well, my DH cheated a number of years ago- we had a small child and it felt like the worst kind of betrayal. We are still married, and in hindsight, I will take responsibility for my part in why certain aspects of our marriage weren't working well--but I will leave the cheating on the table. That was his choice and it nearly cost him his family. Fortunately, he saw that, ended things immediately with OW, and has grown up as a spouse and father.
It's behind us, but it changes the relationship forever- it creates a wound that can be reopened when times are tough. It adds a little extra weight, even years later.

Finally, an intelligent response. An affair is usually a sign of shared problems by two with a failure by one. PP presents a very realistic portrayal of real life. Sadly, not many marriages recover as hers has even though she admits that it changes the relationship forever and is a wound that can be reopened.

pp here- I don't want to over explain, but I think the future of the marriage really depends on the cheater taking full responsibility for cheating and taking immediate steps to instill trust- immediately breaking ties with AP, checking in regularly and dealing with the aftermath as if you caused a terrible wound- because you did. Any ambivalence needs to be taken care of separately- if the person who cheated is not 100%, they need to move out. Otherwise they just continue to cause damage. A friend of mine experienced her husband cheating, then had the added burden of helping him deal with *his* feelings about the other woman and whether he still wanted to be married. It was the height of selfishness, and that is a marriage that is not recovering.

After the initial shock of cheating and a commitment to staying married if possible--then it's a good time to sort through problems. Accepting that people are flawed, that we can't know someone as well as we think we do, people can change, and there is a big picture, it's all part of growing up--but it starts with taking responsibility.

Anonymous wrote:Well, my DH cheated a number of years ago- we had a small child and it felt like the worst kind of betrayal. We are still married, and in hindsight, I will take responsibility for my part in why certain aspects of our marriage weren't working well--but I will leave the cheating on the table. That was his choice and it nearly cost him his family. Fortunately, he saw that, ended things immediately with OW, and has grown up as a spouse and father.
It's behind us, but it changes the relationship forever- it creates a wound that can be reopened when times are tough. It adds a little extra weight, even years later.

Finally, an intelligent response. An affair is usually a sign of shared problems by two with a failure by one. PP presents a very realistic portrayal of real life. Sadly, not many marriages recover as hers has even though she admits that it changes the relationship forever and is a wound that can be reopened.

Yes to all of the above. I will agree, the cheating was all on me. My decision, my actions. But the dynamic in the marriage -- and the victim in the marriage -- was not just my spouse. We had things going on before that changed the course of our marriage and how we interacted.

I'm not saying it was his fault or her fault or one person caused the other to cheat. They didn't. It was ME making that choice, and I can own that. But my choices were informed by the rest of what was going on in our lives.

Both of us were "victims" if you want to put it that way, and both of us "perpetrators"

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That is very 2015 thinking. Psychologist have done much research since.

Marriages are an agreement between 2 adult parties unless it is an arranged marriage or if one is being held hostage.

Affairs are not and agreement between 2 people.

It is not reasonable to blame somebody for their spouses actions and is a kin to saying: "I wouldn't hit her if she wasn't such a B*tch" or "I drink because he is such a jerk".

People need to take responsibility for their own actions. If the marriage sucks end it. But... but... but... I don't want to, plain and simple. For the kids, for the money, for selfishness. It's a choice to stay married. It's a breach of an agreement to have an affair.

I agree with this. I'm sure that some affairs are rooted in problems within the marriage, but that's not an excuse. Having an affair crosses a huge line, boundary, and the cheater playing a victim doesn't justify it.

If the marriage is sexless, etc., then man up and either say you are going to open up the marriage or want a divorce. Don't be a coward.

I also think that some infidelity isn't rooted in problems. Some people don't like monogamy. I've dated two man like that. In both instances, we were very serious (in one case living together) and there was nothing wrong. One of them cheated in previous relationships (I didn't find that out until after we were serious). The other one (I know for a fact) cheated on his next girlfriend.

Some people want it all. They want to be able play the field and still have a stable and consistent companion at home. Sometimes cheating isn't rooted in flaws in the marriage; it is rooted in flaws in the cheater.

I agree with this, too. One person doesn't get to change the rules without the other person having input. Anything you're hiding from your spouse means that he/she is unable to make decisions with all the information.

Well, my DH cheated a number of years ago- we had a small child and it felt like the worst kind of betrayal. We are still married, and in hindsight, I will take responsibility for my part in why certain aspects of our marriage weren't working well--but I will leave the cheating on the table. That was his choice and it nearly cost him his family. Fortunately, he saw that, ended things immediately with OW, and has grown up as a spouse and father.
It's behind us, but it changes the relationship forever- it creates a wound that can be reopened when times are tough. It adds a little extra weight, even years later.

Anonymous wrote:That is very 2015 thinking. Psychologist have done much research since.

Marriages are an agreement between 2 adult parties unless it is an arranged marriage or if one is being held hostage.

Affairs are not and agreement between 2 people.

It is not reasonable to blame somebody for their spouses actions and is a kin to saying: "I wouldn't hit her if she wasn't such a B*tch" or "I drink because he is such a jerk".

People need to take responsibility for their own actions. If the marriage sucks end it. But... but... but... I don't want to, plain and simple. For the kids, for the money, for selfishness. It's a choice to stay married. It's a breach of an agreement to have an affair.

Psychologists have conducted and published "much research" on this topic since 2015? So in two years, they've done the research, published it, and what was true in 2015 is now passé. Okay.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disagree with the quote. I agree with the idea that no one is 100% guilty and no one is 100% innocent, but in an affair scenario the cheating spouse has a severely compromised moral compass. The other spouse may be depressed, ill, poor at communicating, but two wrongs don't make a right. You should have learned that in elementary school.

If your marriage is bad, END IT. Don't cheat.

I love these platitudes! There is no "I" in team!

Back to the real world, when there are children, and school districts, and families with health issues, and health insurance issues, and economic considerations, 401ks, the idea of "just end it!" is totally meaningless.

It's far, far less messy to just find a way to get discreet needs met outside the marriage, if sex is the only issue. The idea you need to blow up your kids world as the go to response is backwards. Keep your family intact, go do what you need to do if your spouse becomes unwilling to do it.

To me the idea that you need to get sexual needs met so badly that you go outside the marriage is absurd. That one would put children, their schooling, your family, your finances, your home, etc. etc. all at risk for some tail is just.... monstrous.

Anonymous wrote:Disagree with the quote. I agree with the idea that no one is 100% guilty and no one is 100% innocent, but in an affair scenario the cheating spouse has a severely compromised moral compass. The other spouse may be depressed, ill, poor at communicating, but two wrongs don't make a right. You should have learned that in elementary school.

If your marriage is bad, END IT. Don't cheat.

I love these platitudes! There is no "I" in team!

Back to the real world, when there are children, and school districts, and families with health issues, and health insurance issues, and economic considerations, 401ks, the idea of "just end it!" is totally meaningless.

It's far, far less messy to just find a way to get discreet needs met outside the marriage, if sex is the only issue. The idea you need to blow up your kids world as the go to response is backwards. Keep your family intact, go do what you need to do if your spouse becomes unwilling to do it.

Disagree with the quote. I agree with the idea that no one is 100% guilty and no one is 100% innocent, but in an affair scenario the cheating spouse has a severely compromised moral compass. The other spouse may be depressed, ill, poor at communicating, but two wrongs don't make a right. You should have learned that in elementary school.

If your marriage is bad, END IT. Don't cheat.

I completely agree with that quote. It was true for us.

People aren't perfect. Marriage is hard. There is a difference between being less-than perfect and stepping out on your marriage. There's no excuse for cheating. If your marriage is that bad, fix it or get a divorce. Don't cheat.

Anonymous wrote:The victim of the affair was the OW. He had an EA with a woman who told him she would leave her DH if he left me. Perhaps he was seeking something emotional that was missing in our marriage, but I was so drained by years of emotional and financial abuse by him that I had nothing left to give. So, like other emotional vampires, he found a new source of energy to feed off. Free of some of his negative attentions, my head cleared enough that I could see his abuse of me for what it was. I accepted the help my parents had offered for years. And in my third trimester, I filed for divorce.

I didn't blame her. She was unhappy in her own marriage and my ex has always been able to oversell himself. I was relieved for her and her DC when she decided to stay with her DH, though I heard from multiple sources that it was a financial decision. I consider her the victim of the affair because she was lured into investing so much of herself into a man who was unavailable due to his personality disorder, but claiming only his marriage was holding him back.

I really like "emotional vampire" and the description of the affair and surrounding behaviour as abusive. I also think that the extreme deception and manipulation behind the affair as well as the sexual betrayal and the repeated pattern of bad behaviour, revelation, faux remorse, etc., fits the classic cycle of abuse and the resultant trauma to the victim is often under-valued.

It is a classic part of abuser behaviour to blame the victim. ("I wouldn't hit you, but you did X, which makes me really angry."). Cheating is no different in this respect - I cheated because you made me feel X or you wouldn't give me X sexually.

I personally am not a fan of Perel. I think her work veers to close to blaming the victim. That said, Perel makes it very clear that once there is cheating, the marriage is over. Only if both parties want to try and build a new marriage can the work of creating a new marriage concept/contract/story be possible. In that context, both parties have to be honest about their role and needs in the marriage and whether that is contributing to a healthy partnership. She also acknowledges that the betrayal of an affair could be so damaging that it's just not possible to move beyond it together.

BTW, PP, I also had to end a marriage during my 3rd trimester due to cheating. It was really tough - tough to not have a partner during pregnancy and birth, tough to see my youngest grow up without a reliable father. You are so very amazing for having the power to step away from this kind of abuse at such a vulnerable time.

Sounds like victim-blaming bullshit to me.

NO amount of "indifference or emotional unavailability" or anything else justifies an affair. You want out, GET A DIVORCE.

Sure infidelity is rooted in problems in the marriage, but those problems are sometimes one-sided. My mother's family comes from a culture where male infidelity is shrugged off, but women would be ostracized if not killed for stepping out. I have many female relatives who did everything right and still ended up with cheating husbands. Some men just think it's their right.