Anonymous
Post 01/25/2017 18:26     Subject: Is this late start into clinical psychology crazy?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Take a vow of poverty. Most of the Psych PhDs I know never clear $100k.


$100K is poverty?

Call me a hobo then.


After 5 years of grad school, to max out at 100K is not great. Think of the loans.
Anonymous
Post 01/25/2017 14:23     Subject: Is this late start into clinical psychology crazy?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:As a clinical psychologist:

-Five years is an underestimate. Graduate school itself would take five years at a minimum, for many it takes six to get through everything (including internship). Depending on where you want to become licensed, you would then need at least a year of supervised practice before applying for licensure.
-Also: depending on what coursework you had in undergrad, you may need to complete additional course requirements, along with taking the GRE and psych GRE
-Getting into decent clinical psych programs is very, very difficult. Harder than getting into medical school. Most of the successful applicants have some experience in research and clinical work--not independent, of course, but maybe they've worked as a research assistant while volunteering for a crisis hotline. Many will have a publication or two and several presentations on their CVs.
-Starting salaries are not high, particularly not for someone unlicensed. You can earn a decent salary in private practice, but that takes time to build. I wouldn't expect to see six figures for a while. If you were to practice someplace like the VA or a hospital, the pay isn't super high but also is more stable.

So, you may well be looking at a 10 year endeavor, from getting the experience you need to get in, to actually getting in, to internship and licensure. Also: could you apply to programs all over, or just in the DC area? Those are quite competitive, as many people want to live here.

Last but not least, stay far, far away from any programs at for-profit places like Argosy, or various schools of professional psychology (and anything online, heaven forbid). You will pay an exorbitant amount of money for subpar training.

All this said, it's been worth it to me (I primarily do research now but am licensed and have done a lot of clinical work in the past). I love research and clinical work, though: if you're only interested in clinical practice, it's a ton of effort when a masters in social work, say, would probably suffice. You wouldn't do assessment, but could still do psychotherapy, program evaluation, etc. Happy to answer any more questions if you have them!


Wow, thank you! OP here.

My husband's job is not easily transferable to other places, so I'm looking for local programs. Do you have any insights on those?
I love research, but am also drawn to seeing clients and assessments. Are there significant salary differences between research and practice?
Thank you for answering my questions. I don't know any clinical psychologists in real life.




Frankly, the ones you might have a shot at are AU, Catholic, GMU (all PhD) and Loyola (PsyD, but a good reputation). Even the PhD programs would be a stretch: they all take people with research and some clinical experience. The other issue to consider re: location is that you need to complete a one year clinical internship as part of doctoral training in clinical psych (PhD or PsyD). They have local ones, but those are also extremely competitive. You need one that's APA-accredited, so you're still somewhat limited. Differences in salary for research in practice are less in amount, and more in stability: research tends to be more stable (although, perhaps not if you're in a major research university), private practice less so although potentially more lucrative. If you're in a hospital, etc., salary is probably more comparable to research but you have the stability absent in private practice.

I also don't entirely agree with the MSW above who said that psychotherapy is largely common sense. That's part of it, but to be effective you really need a strong foundation in psychopathology, theoretical orientations, etc. Clinical Psych programs offer a lot of training, and while you don't launch as an experienced clinician you should have that solid base. In my experience, it was having really outstanding, close supervision by expert psychotherapists that helped me be more effective with patients. The advice to be in therapy yourself is useful, though, particularly if you see yourself wanting to practice.

Last but not least, the DC area is fairly saturated with mental health practitioners of all stripes, particularly if you work with adults. You'd be wise to think of a speciality/sub-speciality to distinguish yourself if you want to work with adults. If couples, children, etc., that in itself is a decent niche.
Anonymous
Post 01/25/2017 12:31     Subject: Is this late start into clinical psychology crazy?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Take a vow of poverty. Most of the Psych PhDs I know never clear $100k.


$100K is poverty?

Call me a hobo then.


To start from scratch, take on debt, start working five/six years from now when you're 43, and take 10 years in the field to get near to 100k? Yeah, it's not a smart financial move.
Anonymous
Post 01/25/2017 12:23     Subject: Is this late start into clinical psychology crazy?
Anonymous wrote:Here is how you spend 5 years and do therapy and actually make money (which is what you want)...

spend the next year - 18 months taking pre-nursing requirements at community college

apply to nurse practitioner programs

spend 3 years in NP school and make your specialty psychiatric nurse practitioner

5 years later you can do therapy and prescribe meds so you will make actual money. you need to be able to prescribe meds if you want to charge a high hourly rate or be paid a high salary at a clinic/therapy office.


If you want to sling prescriptions this is the way to go. If you want to be a therapist do not think you will be one in any agency. NPs are not doing therapy. They are diagnosing and prescribing and collaborating with actual therapists. I would never seek a NP for therapy. They follow a medical model.
Anonymous
Post 01/25/2017 11:42     Subject: Is this late start into clinical psychology crazy?
Here is how you spend 5 years and do therapy and actually make money (which is what you want)...

spend the next year - 18 months taking pre-nursing requirements at community college

apply to nurse practitioner programs

spend 3 years in NP school and make your specialty psychiatric nurse practitioner

5 years later you can do therapy and prescribe meds so you will make actual money. you need to be able to prescribe meds if you want to charge a high hourly rate or be paid a high salary at a clinic/therapy office.
Anonymous
Post 01/25/2017 10:45     Subject: Is this late start into clinical psychology crazy?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Take a vow of poverty. Most of the Psych PhDs I know never clear $100k.

There's a Psych PhD and a PsyD. How many do you know?


I worked at a university in a field along side psychologists and had salary info. Between them and friends who constantly waffle between being SAHMs and working as clinical psychologists for $50k - $60k, I probably know a dozen. One earns over $100k.


So the psychologist earning 100K is full-time, whereas the ones earning 50K are part-time, or are there other differences?
NO 50k would be for full time positions. Worked for a mental health center when I lived in Atlanta and clinical psychologists (PhD or PsyD) staff earned between 50-65k.
Anonymous
Post 01/25/2017 05:28     Subject: Is this late start into clinical psychology crazy?
Anonymous wrote:Take a vow of poverty. Most of the Psych PhDs I know never clear $100k.


$100K is poverty?

Call me a hobo then.
Anonymous
Post 01/24/2017 20:59     Subject: Is this late start into clinical psychology crazy?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Oh my. You're young. I switched careers to become a psychotherapist at age 44! Never too late. I chose social work cause it took the least time and afforded the best options for being hired. You don't learn how to be a good therapist in school. So much is common sense along w theories as outlines and compassion. Plenty of therapists in this area make $100000 or more if that's what your goal is. Best suggestion is to make sure you are in therapy yourself to work through your issues. We all have issues. If the therapist is bad note what not to do and move on to one that is excellent. The best way to learn. Good luck.


Good point, PP.

OP here. If you don't mind me asking, are you happy with this late career change? Was it difficult to switch? Are you in private practice?

Thank you.


Don't mind. Second career following a 20 year career as an event planner with the a national museum. I love the work and find it fulfilling. I enjoyed grad school (it's my 2nd grad degee). I worked for an agency after graduation to get my hours toward clinical liscensure. I am working part time at agency now and starting private practice work with a small group. There is a local fb group call D.C. Therapy
Connects you might want to check out. Other fb groups too I'm sure.
pp again. Had no student loans cause more affordable than other psych degrees. No gre or gmat tests required.
Anonymous
Post 01/24/2017 20:51     Subject: Is this late start into clinical psychology crazy?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Oh my. You're young. I switched careers to become a psychotherapist at age 44! Never too late. I chose social work cause it took the least time and afforded the best options for being hired. You don't learn how to be a good therapist in school. So much is common sense along w theories as outlines and compassion. Plenty of therapists in this area make $100000 or more if that's what your goal is. Best suggestion is to make sure you are in therapy yourself to work through your issues. We all have issues. If the therapist is bad note what not to do and move on to one that is excellent. The best way to learn. Good luck.


Good point, PP.

OP here. If you don't mind me asking, are you happy with this late career change? Was it difficult to switch? Are you in private practice?

Thank you.


Don't mind. Second career following a 20 year career as an event planner with the a national museum. I love the work and find it fulfilling. I enjoyed grad school (it's my 2nd grad degee). I worked for an agency after graduation to get my hours toward clinical liscensure. I am working part time at agency now and starting private practice work with a small group. There is a local fb group call D.C. Therapy
Connects you might want to check out. Other fb groups too I'm sure.
Anonymous
Post 01/24/2017 20:39     Subject: Is this late start into clinical psychology crazy?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:As a clinical psychologist:

-Five years is an underestimate. Graduate school itself would take five years at a minimum, for many it takes six to get through everything (including internship). Depending on where you want to become licensed, you would then need at least a year of supervised practice before applying for licensure.
-Also: depending on what coursework you had in undergrad, you may need to complete additional course requirements, along with taking the GRE and psych GRE
-Getting into decent clinical psych programs is very, very difficult. Harder than getting into medical school. Most of the successful applicants have some experience in research and clinical work--not independent, of course, but maybe they've worked as a research assistant while volunteering for a crisis hotline. Many will have a publication or two and several presentations on their CVs.
-Starting salaries are not high, particularly not for someone unlicensed. You can earn a decent salary in private practice, but that takes time to build. I wouldn't expect to see six figures for a while. If you were to practice someplace like the VA or a hospital, the pay isn't super high but also is more stable.

So, you may well be looking at a 10 year endeavor, from getting the experience you need to get in, to actually getting in, to internship and licensure. Also: could you apply to programs all over, or just in the DC area? Those are quite competitive, as many people want to live here.

Last but not least, stay far, far away from any programs at for-profit places like Argosy, or various schools of professional psychology (and anything online, heaven forbid). You will pay an exorbitant amount of money for subpar training.

All this said, it's been worth it to me (I primarily do research now but am licensed and have done a lot of clinical work in the past). I love research and clinical work, though: if you're only interested in clinical practice, it's a ton of effort when a masters in social work, say, would probably suffice. You wouldn't do assessment, but could still do psychotherapy, program evaluation, etc. Happy to answer any more questions if you have them!


+1 to every bit of this. Bottom line: Unless you really want to do research, become an LCSW instead.


+2. Another licensed clinical psychologist who primarily works in research settings. I'll echo especially how tough it is to get into competitive clinical psych programs--there are better odds of getting into medical school, but for typically far less pay (my husband's an MD). For example, of the 600 people who applied to my clinical psych program the year I applied: 60 were offered interviews, and admission offers were extended to only about 20 applicants. Also, these days, it's really tough to get admitted to these programs without a couple years of immediate experience working in a research lab, and some poster presentations and even research publications under your belt when applying. This is in addition to high GPAs and SAT scores. The kids admitted to these programs are not just bright and personable, but have a lot of grit and a ton of ambition, IME.

I agree with the PPs suggesting more clinically-focused fields--here you'll have a better chance of getting admitted to these programs, especially if you need to stay locally, and they'll be shorter in duration with fewer research requirements. When I advise undergrads, I tend to steer them away from doing clinical psych, unless I see that look in their eye--the look that says they're primarily focused on having an academic/research career, and won't be happy with anything else. Most others that know from the start that they primarily want to do clinical work I advise towards more appropriate degrees.

I also agree about staying away from most psychology professional schools (with a couple of notable exceptions, but none local). You'll come out with often inadequate training and six figures of debt.
Anonymous
Post 01/24/2017 20:21     Subject: Is this late start into clinical psychology crazy?
Anonymous wrote:Oh my. You're young. I switched careers to become a psychotherapist at age 44! Never too late. I chose social work cause it took the least time and afforded the best options for being hired. You don't learn how to be a good therapist in school. So much is common sense along w theories as outlines and compassion. Plenty of therapists in this area make $100000 or more if that's what your goal is. Best suggestion is to make sure you are in therapy yourself to work through your issues. We all have issues. If the therapist is bad note what not to do and move on to one that is excellent. The best way to learn. Good luck.


Good point, PP.

OP here. If you don't mind me asking, are you happy with this late career change? Was it difficult to switch? Are you in private practice?

Thank you.
Anonymous
Post 01/24/2017 20:18     Subject: Is this late start into clinical psychology crazy?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Take a vow of poverty. Most of the Psych PhDs I know never clear $100k.

There's a Psych PhD and a PsyD. How many do you know?


I worked at a university in a field along side psychologists and had salary info. Between them and friends who constantly waffle between being SAHMs and working as clinical psychologists for $50k - $60k, I probably know a dozen. One earns over $100k.


So the psychologist earning 100K is full-time, whereas the ones earning 50K are part-time, or are there other differences?
Anonymous
Post 01/24/2017 20:16     Subject: Is this late start into clinical psychology crazy?
Anonymous wrote:As a clinical psychologist:

-Five years is an underestimate. Graduate school itself would take five years at a minimum, for many it takes six to get through everything (including internship). Depending on where you want to become licensed, you would then need at least a year of supervised practice before applying for licensure.
-Also: depending on what coursework you had in undergrad, you may need to complete additional course requirements, along with taking the GRE and psych GRE
-Getting into decent clinical psych programs is very, very difficult. Harder than getting into medical school. Most of the successful applicants have some experience in research and clinical work--not independent, of course, but maybe they've worked as a research assistant while volunteering for a crisis hotline. Many will have a publication or two and several presentations on their CVs.
-Starting salaries are not high, particularly not for someone unlicensed. You can earn a decent salary in private practice, but that takes time to build. I wouldn't expect to see six figures for a while. If you were to practice someplace like the VA or a hospital, the pay isn't super high but also is more stable.

So, you may well be looking at a 10 year endeavor, from getting the experience you need to get in, to actually getting in, to internship and licensure. Also: could you apply to programs all over, or just in the DC area? Those are quite competitive, as many people want to live here.

Last but not least, stay far, far away from any programs at for-profit places like Argosy, or various schools of professional psychology (and anything online, heaven forbid). You will pay an exorbitant amount of money for subpar training.

All this said, it's been worth it to me (I primarily do research now but am licensed and have done a lot of clinical work in the past). I love research and clinical work, though: if you're only interested in clinical practice, it's a ton of effort when a masters in social work, say, would probably suffice. You wouldn't do assessment, but could still do psychotherapy, program evaluation, etc. Happy to answer any more questions if you have them!


Wow, thank you! OP here.

My husband's job is not easily transferable to other places, so I'm looking for local programs. Do you have any insights on those?
I love research, but am also drawn to seeing clients and assessments. Are there significant salary differences between research and practice?
Thank you for answering my questions. I don't know any clinical psychologists in real life.


Anonymous
Post 01/24/2017 17:59     Subject: Is this late start into clinical psychology crazy?
Oh my. You're young. I switched careers to become a psychotherapist at age 44! Never too late. I chose social work cause it took the least time and afforded the best options for being hired. You don't learn how to be a good therapist in school. So much is common sense along w theories as outlines and compassion. Plenty of therapists in this area make $100000 or more if that's what your goal is. Best suggestion is to make sure you are in therapy yourself to work through your issues. We all have issues. If the therapist is bad note what not to do and move on to one that is excellent. The best way to learn. Good luck.
Anonymous
Post 01/24/2017 16:19     Subject: Is this late start into clinical psychology crazy?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Take a vow of poverty. Most of the Psych PhDs I know never clear $100k.

There's a Psych PhD and a PsyD. How many do you know?
PsyD programs are usually private and very expensive. The PP is right that it can easily be a 10 year investment. Think hard about the career- the pay rarely goes above 100k and there is high burnout in the field.

Some other options to consider aside from Psychologists include:
- social workers
-licensed professional counselors (LPC)
-school counselors
-guidance counselors
-Psychiatric nurses
-Psychiatric nurse practitioners

All of those options will be a much lower time investment, although they each have varying pay levels.


I'm 13:32 above: this list comprises very different career paths and daily duties. A psych RN or CRNP isn't going to do psychotherapy, nor would school counselors or guidance counselors. Any counselor, including an LPC, is going to have a fairly limited scope of practice. An MSW is a robust degree that is well-respected and offers various career paths. It has some of the flexibility afforded by a PhD in clinical psychology, although obviously not as much.


I am an LPC and chose counseling v. social work because the program of study - at 3 years v. 2 years for SW - was much more clinically focused. I was surprised by how many of my SW colleagues never sat with clients before graduation. A counseling degree at an accredited school (make sure this is the case, OP) requires deep clinical experience and leaves candidates with a strong set of skills to use when accumulating those 3000 clinical hours required for licensure. I am in fee-for-service private practice and see a wide range of cases relating to my interests (and my post-graduation continuing ed). I made well into six figures last year, so no vows of poverty are required, but I have been in practice 10+ years.

But if you are planning to live and work in DC, SW might be a better call due to the prevalence of LICSWs and the associated preference for that affiliation when looking for internship placements, supervision and jobs.

OP, the median age of students in my MS-level grad program was 35, so you go ahead and make this change! You won't be the only one, and life experience is very useful in this work.


I'm in a social work program, and I don't understand how this is possible. My program has 2 internships (one of which is 480 hours and the other is 600 hours, completed over an academic year). Other programs have more or less fieldwork, and obviously your internship itself may involve more or less face time with clients, but unless you're talking about colleagues who didn't practice individual counseling or something, I don't see how that's possible for a MSW in the US.


Sorry for the confusion - those I mentioned colleagues hadn't sat with clients for actual therapy or with clinical supervision of those sessions (taping/video, live consultations), but had done quite a bit of case management in their internships.


Not all social workers want to do clinical work. You do two year long internships for your masters degree. Its heavy internship - 2 days a week the first year and 3 days a week the second year.


MSW student from above. Yes, this is true. It depends on the program and focus of your particular curriculum. I'm in the clinical program, and it's generally expected that our internships will be in clinical settings, particularly the second one. The first one is slightly more flexible, and a lot of people end up in case management because frankly, case management organizations need bodies and don't require a ton of experience.