pbraverman wrote:With respect to the PP, this would not be my approach. It is a restatement of the idea that a particular school is more important to a child's success than the child herself.

I'd encourage you to ask first whether you think your daughter should switch schools after sixth grade. If the answer is no, trust your parenting and return in eighth grade to the question of which schools could be good fits. To make a decision now about where she might be in two years is folly; she will change a lot in that time and you are just as likely to be wrong as to be right. (The girl I wrote about earlier, and her parents, did indeed change their minds between grade 6 and grade 8.) At the same time you'll have foreclosed the chance for your daughter to be involved meaningfully in the decision at the very point she is most likely to grow from it.

The use of "you" in the previous post also leaves me uncomfortable — as in, "you" should know that "you" want Holton (I mean, unless you're actually the one applying, in which case we should have a different discussion. ) It suggests the YOUR goal of getting your daughter into the One Perfect School is more important than raising a self-reliant, confident daughter who can succeed in any environment. ("You're successful and happy now! Mommy wants you to switch!") What windmill are we chasing here?

If you have faith in your daughter, you know she will be awesome no matter where she goes to high school. If you don't, no school will help her overcome the lifetime avalanche of anxiety rolled up in the seductive veneer of "high achievement." (And yeah, I know we're all going to leave our children with clinical-level anxiety. Let's not get sidetracked here!)

Finally, I am surprised that the PP "suspects" that each admission level is "progressively harder than the next." I do not know whether that is the case for Holton specifically, but my experience with most schools does not support that assertion.

That said, I agree completely the admission team is terrific.

Peter

OP here, you are absolutely right Peter and its true, I have faith in my daugther and I know she will succeed academically in any school, at this point her feelings and wellbeing are more important. I like the idea that she will be making those decisions when she is in eight grade, with our guidance of course, but she will be part of it. Whereas if we do it next year she will be clueless about what she wants and upset becasue we will be forcing her out of a school she loves and feels part of it. Thanks so much for your good advice.

With the exception of this year's 9th grade class having few slots, as pp noted above, it's typically a good entry year. A point that hasn't been made yet is that the K-8s are so strong around here they seem to have good placements.

Anonymous wrote:6th is an entry for Holton. 5th goes from 3 classes to 4 classes in 6th grade (~15 spots for the 6th grade class) not many spots in 5th

My daughter came in at 6th grade and they accepted 23. Because they were such a big class (the biggest the school ever had) 7th grade acceptance was much smaller since they didn't add teachers in middle school to accommodate a higher number of girls. I believe this current year of 9th graders had the smallest 9th grade enrollment due to their middle school class size and very little kids leaving. So it all depends on the grade, who leaves, and if in prior years, some candidates are worth adding (grades, a kicker, no FA needed) that decreases the pot for future years. I do know in my daughter's 9th grade year, about 5 left for boarding school and 3 left for co-ed (due to brothers and easier on the parents for transport, sport schedules, etc..) 2 moved, 2 were "encouraged" to find a better fit, and 1 was shown the door (discipline issues.) So even though they were a bigger class, that is about 15 spots that opened up for 9th.

So you never honestly know but I do agree with previous posters that if you think that is a good fit for your daughter, sooner better than later. I think a transition in earlier years is easier.

Good luck! It is a fantastic school.

Anonymous wrote:I think it matters more where she finished, not where she started. Looking back most people don't stay close with lower school friends but have ties to where they graduate for life.

If you really want Holton as your #1 choice, you would be a fool to wait until the last major entry year.

Agree. If Holton is your choice. I wouldn't wait. And middle school was our favorite part at that school.

Anonymous wrote:Holton's big entry year are 3/4/7/9; I suspect each is progressively harder than the next, but all four are still MUCH easier than any other year. If you know you want Holton, I'd call the admissions office, let them know you're interested, and ask if there is any point in a 6th grade application. Since there are generally only spots open when an existing student leaves, they'll know whether there is even a possibility that ANYone could be admitted. I had a friend do this a few years ago, and the admissions team was very forthcoming and transparent.

Incorrect. 6th is a bigger entry year than 7th.

Anonymous wrote:Thanks a lot for this great advice. It really makes sense and you are right, the benefits she will get for being "queen of the hill" as you said will be with her for a long time and will give her confidence for the years ahead. It is rare to find such sincere and well intencioned advice here, so again, many thanks! I think you convinced me to stay.

Anonymous wrote:I completely agree that Peter gives wise and rational advice on this and other threads. But I just have one comment, as a parent who in the last few years decided to have her daughter make the switch to Holton (having applied to a range of schools and landed on this as the best fit) from a K-8 after 6th grade. While she was happy at her school and would have benefited, as Peter pointed out, from being "king of the hill," and knowing herself better, there was no denying the data. She wanted--and so did we--a top school and the chances of getting in to any of the top 5 to 6 schools go down substantially when applying for 9th grade. I had admissions people at 2 different schools tell me this themselves. All of Peter's advice is great, if we weren't in DC. If you and your daughter know that she wants to attend there (because you have fully vetted it and know it's a good fit), you may as well go for it in 7th.

I think the PP raises two good points:

1. If you are in DC (and especially if you are applying to DC schools), I think the calculus changes a little insofar as you might not find your public options desirable. In that case, I certainly understand the heightened interest in finding something ... whenever.

2. If a parent and his or her child feel strongly about making a change — and have for a while (i.e., it's not just a flavor-of-the-month thing), that's also a different situation. In the original case, the child is happy where she is and I didn't get the feeling that there was any urgency outside of the "what if we don't get in for ninth grade" question.

Thanks for the thoughtful additions.
Peter

P.S. Oh, wait, there's a third good point the PP makes: "Peter gives wise and rational advice." LOL, but thanks sincerely for the compliment.

Anonymous wrote:

pbraverman wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD is at the moment in a very good private that goes up to 8th grade. We are interested in Holton Arms as a posible school for her after her current school. Would it be easier to apply to enter at 6th grade or in 9th grade. DD is happy in her current school so I am inclined to let her stay until 8th grade but worry about about the chances for that particular school. Any thoughts?

There is a lot of value to finishing something, and your daughter will likely reap a lot of benefit from being "queen of the hill" in eighth grade at her K-8. That's very hard for a middle schooler to get in a K-12 school. (I've worked in both.) She'll also have the thrill of graduation, a rite of passage and an achievement at a critical time for kids, i.e., early adolescence.

Perhaps the strongest reason to stay is that grades 7 and 8 are the years in which almost all kids (especially girls) experience enormous growth in self-awareness. That's not merely incidental; a child who is strongly self-aware is much better equipped to participate in the process of selecting her school than a younger child is. In my last year in a school, a family was in exactly the same position you're in. I encouraged them to consider the advantages of staying, and they decided their daughter would. She finished last year, and the family told me they (and she) were thrilled they finished the process, and how eagerly she dove into the high school search process.

The girl was offered a spot at every school to which she applied, and she's now old enough to apply that success to her college search in four years. I can't even count how many families told me that their college searches were unremarkable because their kids felt so confident as a result of their high school search experience. A sixth-grader is very unlikely to transfer her experience in the same way six years later — both because she's not as self-aware, and because it's a longer time between events.

There are reasons to apply in grade 6, but I think the case is stronger to wait — ESPECIALLY if she's happy where she is. In my experience, there are seldom, if ever, advantages in terms of numbers in the admission pools. Your experience, of course, may differ.

Good luck!
Peter
_____________________

Disclaimer: The anonymity here makes me uncomfortable; it's easy to be uninformed, personal, or simply mean-spirited if people don't identify themselves. For that reason, I have an account so you know whose words you're reading. I have more than 20 years' experience as a teacher and administrator in independent schools, and I hope I can be helpful to some folks. If you don't like something I've said, you're in good company — there's a long line of past students ahead of you. If you want to chat further, please feel free to contact me offline: peter <at> arcpd <dot> com

Thanks a lot for this great advice. It really makes sense and you are right, the benefits she will get for being "queen of the hill" as you said will be with her for a long time and will give her confidence for the years ahead. It is rare to find such sincere and well intencioned advice here, so again, many thanks! I think you convinced me to stay.

I completely agree that Peter gives wise and rational advice on this and other threads. But I just have one comment, as a parent who in the last few years decided to have her daughter make the switch to Holton (having applied to a range of schools and landed on this as the best fit) from a K-8 after 6th grade. While she was happy at her school and would have benefited, as Peter pointed out, from being "king of the hill," and knowing herself better, there was no denying the data. She wanted--and so did we--a top school and the chances of getting in to any of the top 5 to 6 schools go down substantially when applying for 9th grade. I had admissions people at 2 different schools tell me this themselves. All of Peter's advice is great, if we weren't in DC. If you and your daughter know that she wants to attend there (because you have fully vetted it and know it's a good fit), you may as well go for it in 7th.

6th is an entry for Holton. 5th goes from 3 classes to 4 classes in 6th grade (~15 spots for the 6th grade class) not many spots in 5th

With respect to the PP, this would not be my approach. It is a restatement of the idea that a particular school is more important to a child's success than the child herself.

I'd encourage you to ask first whether you think your daughter should switch schools after sixth grade. If the answer is no, trust your parenting and return in eighth grade to the question of which schools could be good fits. To make a decision now about where she might be in two years is folly; she will change a lot in that time and you are just as likely to be wrong as to be right. (The girl I wrote about earlier, and her parents, did indeed change their minds between grade 6 and grade 8.) At the same time you'll have foreclosed the chance for your daughter to be involved meaningfully in the decision at the very point she is most likely to grow from it.

The use of "you" in the previous post also leaves me uncomfortable — as in, "you" should know that "you" want Holton (I mean, unless you're actually the one applying, in which case we should have a different discussion. ) It suggests the YOUR goal of getting your daughter into the One Perfect School is more important than raising a self-reliant, confident daughter who can succeed in any environment. ("You're successful and happy now! Mommy wants you to switch!") What windmill are we chasing here?

If you have faith in your daughter, you know she will be awesome no matter where she goes to high school. If you don't, no school will help her overcome the lifetime avalanche of anxiety rolled up in the seductive veneer of "high achievement." (And yeah, I know we're all going to leave our children with clinical-level anxiety. Let's not get sidetracked here!)

Finally, I am surprised that the PP "suspects" that each admission level is "progressively harder than the next." I do not know whether that is the case for Holton specifically, but my experience with most schools does not support that assertion.

That said, I agree completely the admission team is terrific.

Peter

Holton's big entry year are 3/4/7/9; I suspect each is progressively harder than the next, but all four are still MUCH easier than any other year. If you know you want Holton, I'd call the admissions office, let them know you're interested, and ask if there is any point in a 6th grade application. Since there are generally only spots open when an existing student leaves, they'll know whether there is even a possibility that ANYone could be admitted. I had a friend do this a few years ago, and the admissions team was very forthcoming and transparent.

A more effective message is: Wherever you go to college or high school (and that goes triple for this area) you will find more opportunities than you can possibly engage. Your success will depend on how well you take advantage of the opportunities that appeal most to you, how you cope with setbacks and mistakes, how you nurture your passions, how you treat others, and how you use your strengths to compensate for your weaknesses. College, or even high school, is not the "end game." There is a mountain of research on the reasons children benefit from focus on the process rather than the outcome. Po Bronson, Wendy Mogel, and Carol Dweck are among my favorites on the subject, but put as briefly as possible: Praise children for their hard work, not their GPAs or their college acceptance letters.

A bit of a pet issue for me, admittedly, but one I hope parents will continue to consider.

Peter (who graduated from his THIRD-choice college)
_____________________


I LOVE this!
Thank you Peter.

Anonymous wrote:I think it matters more where she finished, not where she started. Looking back most people don't stay close with lower school friends but have ties to where they graduate for life.

If you really want Holton as your #1 choice, you would be a fool to wait until the last major entry year.

This is a sensitive topic for me.

I agree that high school friends will likely be more long-term, but isn't that true of any high school? It's not as if Holton has a monopoly on creating these types of friendships — that's a function of adolescence. (Again, I think very highly of Holton, their staff, and their students. This isn't about them at all.)

I didn't sense the OP was looking to select her daughter's friends from a particular school; she was looking for an educational environment that would fit well, and her daughter will be more capable of contributing meaningfully to the looking when she is in eighth grade. My original post was intended to provide one perspective to the OP by rephrasing her question, from "How to get into XYZ school" to "What's the right time to switch schools if my daughter is happy where she is?"

As children grow up, the lines of authority naturally begin to blur. With a first grade applicant, nearly every parent would make the school decision (accepting that they will listen to their child's view of her experience on a visit and so forth). On the other end, most parents today allow their rising ninth-graders to make the school decision — absent any strong objection, or "veto" of particular schools, by the parents — an acknowledgement of growing maturity and faith in our children's judgment, obviously. In the middle it's a little murky. Some reasonable adults will allow their sixth graders to make those decisions; other reasonable adults retain decision-making authority.

But the word "your" in the quotation above makes me uneasy. In sixth grade it may be "your" decision — i.e., the parents', though it's a little blurry — but in eighth grade the OP's daughter will be able to contribute much more meaningfully. That exercise in itself is enormously beneficial to a teenager's development overall and to her schooling in particular.

I may be reading incorrectly, but the "one-itis" involved in this process for some families (we MUST have our first choice — or we MUST have one of the so-called "Big Three") simply does not help children. It puts the locus for success on the school rather than the student, the outcome rather than the process. Children (all people, in fact) are disempowered when success depends more on things they cannot control than things they can. If a student doesn't get in to one of her parents' choices it signifies a failure — again, in an area where the student has limited control. Even if it's not stated explicitly, children are well aware of the failure involved if the family discussion has involved "Harvard-Yale-Princeton" for a dozen years.

A more effective message is: Wherever you go to college or high school (and that goes triple for this area) you will find more opportunities than you can possibly engage. Your success will depend on how well you take advantage of the opportunities that appeal most to you, how you cope with setbacks and mistakes, how you nurture your passions, how you treat others, and how you use your strengths to compensate for your weaknesses. College, or even high school, is not the "end game." There is a mountain of research on the reasons children benefit from focus on the process rather than the outcome. Po Bronson, Wendy Mogel, and Carol Dweck are among my favorites on the subject, but put as briefly as possible: Praise children for their hard work, not their GPAs or their college acceptance letters.

A bit of a pet issue for me, admittedly, but one I hope parents will continue to consider.

Peter (who graduated from his THIRD-choice college)
_____________________

Disclaimer: The anonymity here makes me uncomfortable; it's easy to be uninformed, personal, or simply mean-spirited if people don't identify themselves. For that reason, I have an account so you know whose words you're reading. I have more than 20 years' experience as a teacher and administrator in independent schools, and I hope I can be helpful to some folks. If you don't like something I've said, you're in good company — there's a long line of past students ahead of you. If you want to chat further, please feel free to contact me offline: peter <at> arcpd <dot> com

Anonymous wrote:Many posters on here talk about the "ramp up" at Holton in tenth grade, but fwiw our next door neighbors' daughter (we know the family and the girl very well) is a tenth grader at Holton and she hasn't experienced a crushing work load. Of course she gets a good deal of work but that would be the case in tenth grade anywhere - for example her parents say it doesn't seem to be any different than the workloads of the numerous Whitman high schoolers in the neighborhood. She is very happy at Holton and continues with a high time commitment an outside activity, and has great friends!

It depends on what her courseload is. Some take 5 majors with a sprinkle of honors. They have some study halls and go home at 3:30. Others take multiple honors, AP's, 6 major, while playing sports (some with long intense training like swim, crew, ice hockey) while being president of the robotics club, and still singing in chorus.

The courses are intense and there is no hiding in the back of the class because there are only 10 girls in your English class with oral presentations weekly etc... For girls that love that interaction and teacher involvement, they do well. Many kids move from public for that very reason and thrive. Others feel pressured because they have to always be "on" if that makes sense. Everyone knows your name and the expectation is to be a leader and self advocate. It can be a tough transition.

I think it matters more where she finished, not where she started. Looking back most people don't stay close with lower school friends but have ties to where they graduate for life.

If you really want Holton as your #1 choice, you would be a fool to wait until the last major entry year.

Anonymous wrote:DD applied for Holton last year for 9th and were wait listed. We declined because it was our fourth choice and we got into two of the top three. Apparently, the word was it was extremely competitive last year there. We didn't really have any connections and didn't really care enough to use what we had. It was a nice school but DD didn't want an all girls school. Both all female schools were 4th and 5th choice but applied for options.

The last 2 years have been very competitive.