Anonymous
10/20/2016 15:45
Subject: Am I forever at fault no matter what I've done since then?
What's debasing about making amends and being a loving and trustworthy husband?
You do the crime, you do the time, right? And if this involves allowing the woman you supposedly love to take her time in healing from the damage you did her, it seems to me you're doing the opposite of debasing yourself. You're rising up to take the consequences, act with love and care, and stand by her for as long as it takes.
That does mean both sides have to keep working on it, though, talking with counselors and whatever it takes to get to a point where she can identify, on her side, whether he's killed things for her for good.
If he can't hack it, and feels like tossing her away like a toy he broke and now he can't play with, that's just who he is.
Why not take action in talking to her, finding out why she's still so unhappy, why she's still feeling cold towards you?
You do the crime, you do the time, right? And if this involves allowing the woman you supposedly love to take her time in healing from the damage you did her, it seems to me you're doing the opposite of debasing yourself. You're rising up to take the consequences, act with love and care, and stand by her for as long as it takes.
That does mean both sides have to keep working on it, though, talking with counselors and whatever it takes to get to a point where she can identify, on her side, whether he's killed things for her for good.
If he can't hack it, and feels like tossing her away like a toy he broke and now he can't play with, that's just who he is.
Why not take action in talking to her, finding out why she's still so unhappy, why she's still feeling cold towards you?
Anonymous
10/20/2016 15:40
Subject: Am I forever at fault no matter what I've done since then?
You gave yourself permission to cheat the first time. There is something in your character that allowed yourself to lie and betray your spouse despite having vowed to love and cherish only her beforehand. Now you say that you promise to never do that again. But why should she trust you and believe you? You are the same person and probably have not had a character transplant. Perhaps you are genuinely sincere in your renewed commitment, but I imagine you were genuinely sincere when you made your marriage vows too. It is sad, but you broke something that cannot be fixed. She may very well just be tolerating you until the kids are grown and then plans to leave. I'm not sure how much more time you should give her. If you feel it is best for the kids to stay, then stay. But you cannot expect her to trust you again ... not in the same way she once did.
Anonymous
10/20/2016 14:19
Subject: Am I forever at fault no matter what I've done since then?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The thing that cheated on spouses need to understand is you can't stay in the marriage and also never let go of the anger and resentment. It's normal if that's how you feel and you can't get past it but you don't get to tell your spouse you want to stay married and then punish them in perpetuity. Committing to the marriage means assessing your own part in the situation and also WORKING to move past the incident so you can build a new marriage. It doesn't mean trapping someone into a relationship where they're never ever forgiven and are forever punished.
I do not believe any cheated upon spouse who has a partner who is truly remorseful and constantly working on earning back trust behaves this way. What the cheater is concerned with is not feeling guilty anymore, not making their partner feel loved and secure. They just want things to go back to normal without doing the hard work to make it right. Unfortunately that hard work doesn't feed their egos and requires selflessness. Not a cheater's strong suit.
It's been 3 years! How long is he supposed to debase himself? You and I have no idea who did what in this marriage or who is doing what to make it better now, so we can set aside any speculation there. The thing that OP reports is she is unhappy, the marriage is lifeless and no forgiveness or moving forward has been accomplished. It's possible she isn't capable, and she is within her rights to not be. But then don't hang on to the dying marriage. If you say you'll stay married to the cheating spouse, and the cheating spouse refuses to work on the marriage, then leave. If you say you'll stay married to the cheating spouse, but you really just intend to avoid the dirty work of divorce and stay married in name only while holding this over your spouse's head for years, you need to leave. It does nobody any good to drag out a charade like this when forgiveness and rebuilding either cannot or will be done.
Anonymous
10/20/2016 14:00
Subject: Am I forever at fault no matter what I've done since then?
Anonymous wrote:I cheated and lied about it and she found out. I ended the affair immediately, begged for forgiveness and have been, I believe, a loving and caring husband ever since as best as I can. Fast forward three years and there still is no warmth or intimacy from her, despite my efforts. We have been in counseling and both have our own therapists but there is very little movement and she seems completely uninterested in creating any.
I have almost gotten to the point where I can't keep going without any physical affection and very little emotional life between us. I feel very grateful that she didn't leave me as that would have been well within her rights, although hell on the kids, but is there ever a point that I can leave and not feel guilty? Or at least leave and have people understand? Or do I need to stick it out as long as she's willing to?
She's clearly not happy and I think probably would have left if not for the kids (both under 10), and says she wants a physical and emotional connection with someone, but is unwilling to try and get that from me. I suppose she could be having her own affair but I don't think so.
Anyway, I know I'm the original sinner and am not expecting sympathy, but just some perspective and insight. Thanks.
You will be forever at fault for cheating on your wife. You are to be commended for trying to repair your marriage, which is not something you can do on your own. Have you discussed the lack of forward progress in counseling? Usually one of the things that gets discussed is what the wronged spouse needs to feel secure in the marriage and specific things you can do to facilitate those things.
How was your intimate life before your affair? Is it possible that there is a fundamental drive incompatibility underlying the fallout from your affair? It is normal for her to feel apprehensive about intimacy with someone who betrayed her (intimately) and it can take time to recover from that, but if you are disconnected to the point that she is not able to connect with you and isn't interested in fixing that situation, I think your marriage is doomed.
You are trying to fix it. She is not. Later, when you are looking back, you will be responsible for the divorce because absent your affair, her disconnect wouldn't exist.
Anonymous
10/20/2016 13:58
Subject: Am I forever at fault no matter what I've done since then?
Anonymous wrote:The thing that cheated on spouses need to understand is you can't stay in the marriage and also never let go of the anger and resentment. It's normal if that's how you feel and you can't get past it but you don't get to tell your spouse you want to stay married and then punish them in perpetuity. Committing to the marriage means assessing your own part in the situation and also WORKING to move past the incident so you can build a new marriage. It doesn't mean trapping someone into a relationship where they're never ever forgiven and are forever punished.
I do not believe any cheated upon spouse who has a partner who is truly remorseful and constantly working on earning back trust behaves this way. What the cheater is concerned with is not feeling guilty anymore, not making their partner feel loved and secure. They just want things to go back to normal without doing the hard work to make it right. Unfortunately that hard work doesn't feed their egos and requires selflessness. Not a cheater's strong suit.
Anonymous
10/20/2016 13:53
Subject: Am I forever at fault no matter what I've done since then?
You blew it OP. These are the consequences. Deal with em.
Anonymous
10/20/2016 13:52
Subject: Am I forever at fault no matter what I've done since then?
Not feeling guilty and having others understand is what your most afraid of? Do this woman a favor and leave her.
Anonymous
10/20/2016 10:21
Subject: Am I forever at fault no matter what I've done since then?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Whether or not you feel guilty for leaving is up to you, but don't hold your breath waiting for others to understand. People love to judge.
For what it's worth, just because you broke something doesn't mean you have to stay the rest of your life trying to fix it. If there has been no movement in three years, there's been no move it. You each may be happier without the other.
100% agree with all points on this post. You're a brave man, because the crazy women are about to come out of the woodwork to tell you that you deserve a life of hell. I'm a woman and I don't think you do. You fucked up. You tried to fix it. She clearly wants to hold it against you forever so at some point you have to decide if you want to live like this forever. I think a lot of women secretly enjoy having a cross to bear and being the victim and that may be the case here. I don't think anyone, even people who have royally fucked shit up, deserves to be punished their entire life. You deserve a good life. Go out and find it.
x2. I've been in your situation and it did get better, although I live with the consequences to this day (over 10 years).
Anonymous
10/20/2016 10:15
Subject: Am I forever at fault no matter what I've done since then?
Anonymous wrote:I cheated and lied about it and she found out. I ended the affair immediately, begged for forgiveness and have been, I believe, a loving and caring husband ever since as best as I can. Fast forward three years and there still is no warmth or intimacy from her, despite my efforts. We have been in counseling and both have our own therapists but there is very little movement and she seems completely uninterested in creating any.
I have almost gotten to the point where I can't keep going without any physical affection and very little emotional life between us. I feel very grateful that she didn't leave me as that would have been well within her rights, although hell on the kids, but is there ever a point that I can leave and not feel guilty? Or at least leave and have people understand? Or do I need to stick it out as long as she's willing to?
She's clearly not happy and I think probably would have left if not for the kids (both under 10), and says she wants a physical and emotional connection with someone, but is unwilling to try and get that from me. I suppose she could be having her own affair but I don't think so.
Anyway, I know I'm the original sinner and am not expecting sympathy, but just some perspective and insight. Thanks.
No, there's never a point that you can leave and not feel guilty. Just like there's never going to be a point where she can be with a man (any man, not just you) and feel the same level of trust and love that she once felt with you.
You did something that broke both your lives irretrievably. Neither of you will ever be able to go back to the way things were before your affair. It doesn't matter how much you begged for forgiveness. You did something that is un-doable.
Your only way forward is to build a new life that is different from the old one. If by saying there is "no warmth or intimacy," you mean that you have not had sex in three years, then I think you have to ask yourself if you are willing to continue this way or whether it's time to accept responsibility for your actions and acknowledge that you did something that broke the marriage and it is just not fixable and time to ask for a divorce. But, for god's sake, don't blame her for not being able to forgive you. YOU caused this with your cheating.
When you say "she's clearly not happy". What is she unhappy about? What have you done to address that? You say, "there is very little movement and she seems completely uninterested in creating any." You seem to think it's her responsibility to repair the relationship. It's not. You broke it. You have to fix it.
Grow up.
Anonymous
10/20/2016 09:48
Subject: Am I forever at fault no matter what I've done since then?
Anonymous wrote:Well then divorce. She can't get over your discretion which is her prerogative but it doesn't mean you have to stay married and in this awful stasis pattern.
+1. Your marriage is done. Both of you need to get on with your lives instead of staying miserable.
Anonymous
10/20/2016 08:28
Subject: Am I forever at fault no matter what I've done since then?
Anonymous wrote:^another example. If we're in the middle of sex, and something uncomfortable is happening - even if it's just the blanket is all awkward or something -- and I say something for him to fix it. And he doesn't hear me, and I ask again, and he still doesn't hear/listen/fix it: my oxytocin automatically is done. I mean, it could come back, but my body just takes over and is back to square one.
He used to get frustrated at me for moments like that, understandably.
But I have to tell him, I can feel it just drop. Like we could be super hot, and then in an instant, it's like I'm back to before we started making out or whatever. Not on at all.
It's trust. Because there we were being super close, and he can't even listen to something I said? And he'll be like, I couldn't hear! And I'm like, you and are are about 2 inches away. It tells me we were being close, but he wasn't really paying attention to me.
Now that it has been years of this happening (rarely, but disappointingly every time), we know it. And he KNOWS to pay quick attention if he hears me say something that he didn't hear the first time.
OK! So how this applies to you:
Your wife's trust and hormonal response are tightly linked.
If she cannot trust you (your fault pretty much), she's not going to have a positive hormonal reaction. It's almost physically impossible even if she thinks she might be over it. You have to go ABOVE and BEYOND to restore this. She is partly responsible for choosing to trust also. But I hate to say, you can't hold it against her if 1) you haven't done 200% to restore it, and 2) if at the end she just chooses not to trust you anymore.
I don't understand how him not hearing you ask him to move a blanket has anything to do with trust or sex. You are way WAY overthinking things. Get out of your own head.
Anonymous
10/20/2016 08:26
Subject: Am I forever at fault no matter what I've done since then?
^another example. If we're in the middle of sex, and something uncomfortable is happening - even if it's just the blanket is all awkward or something -- and I say something for him to fix it. And he doesn't hear me, and I ask again, and he still doesn't hear/listen/fix it: my oxytocin automatically is done. I mean, it could come back, but my body just takes over and is back to square one.
He used to get frustrated at me for moments like that, understandably.
But I have to tell him, I can feel it just drop. Like we could be super hot, and then in an instant, it's like I'm back to before we started making out or whatever. Not on at all.
It's trust. Because there we were being super close, and he can't even listen to something I said? And he'll be like, I couldn't hear! And I'm like, you and are are about 2 inches away. It tells me we were being close, but he wasn't really paying attention to me.
Now that it has been years of this happening (rarely, but disappointingly every time), we know it. And he KNOWS to pay quick attention if he hears me say something that he didn't hear the first time.
OK! So how this applies to you:
Your wife's trust and hormonal response are tightly linked.
If she cannot trust you (your fault pretty much), she's not going to have a positive hormonal reaction. It's almost physically impossible even if she thinks she might be over it. You have to go ABOVE and BEYOND to restore this. She is partly responsible for choosing to trust also. But I hate to say, you can't hold it against her if 1) you haven't done 200% to restore it, and 2) if at the end she just chooses not to trust you anymore.
He used to get frustrated at me for moments like that, understandably.
But I have to tell him, I can feel it just drop. Like we could be super hot, and then in an instant, it's like I'm back to before we started making out or whatever. Not on at all.
It's trust. Because there we were being super close, and he can't even listen to something I said? And he'll be like, I couldn't hear! And I'm like, you and are are about 2 inches away. It tells me we were being close, but he wasn't really paying attention to me.
Now that it has been years of this happening (rarely, but disappointingly every time), we know it. And he KNOWS to pay quick attention if he hears me say something that he didn't hear the first time.
OK! So how this applies to you:
Your wife's trust and hormonal response are tightly linked.
If she cannot trust you (your fault pretty much), she's not going to have a positive hormonal reaction. It's almost physically impossible even if she thinks she might be over it. You have to go ABOVE and BEYOND to restore this. She is partly responsible for choosing to trust also. But I hate to say, you can't hold it against her if 1) you haven't done 200% to restore it, and 2) if at the end she just chooses not to trust you anymore.
Anonymous
10/20/2016 08:15
Subject: Am I forever at fault no matter what I've done since then?
The thing that cheated on spouses need to understand is you can't stay in the marriage and also never let go of the anger and resentment. It's normal if that's how you feel and you can't get past it but you don't get to tell your spouse you want to stay married and then punish them in perpetuity. Committing to the marriage means assessing your own part in the situation and also WORKING to move past the incident so you can build a new marriage. It doesn't mean trapping someone into a relationship where they're never ever forgiven and are forever punished.
Anonymous
10/20/2016 08:15
Subject: Am I forever at fault no matter what I've done since then?
She cannot trust you.
For women, sex is wrapped up in a few complicated gears that all work together. It's this combination of physical-emotional-hormonal barriers that fall down when you can trust someone. The physical because technically you are bigger and stronger than she is. The emotional because that's what gets her over the physical barrier. And the hormonal because that's what automatically happens in her body when positive feelings can exist (and it ties the physical and emotional trust together). And the hormonal (the oxytocin, and specifically the oxytocin tied to YOU) is more present when it has recently been active, and again specifically with you.
I had 100% complete trust in DH for a long time. We did it more, because there weren't as many barriers. He did a couple of things to break my full confidence in him. Since then, it's just a little harder for me to 'get there.' I recognize the inner workings. And that I do trust him now. So I work on that oxytocin, and making sure it's 'used' frequently enough to keep on rolling.
For women, sex is wrapped up in a few complicated gears that all work together. It's this combination of physical-emotional-hormonal barriers that fall down when you can trust someone. The physical because technically you are bigger and stronger than she is. The emotional because that's what gets her over the physical barrier. And the hormonal because that's what automatically happens in her body when positive feelings can exist (and it ties the physical and emotional trust together). And the hormonal (the oxytocin, and specifically the oxytocin tied to YOU) is more present when it has recently been active, and again specifically with you.
I had 100% complete trust in DH for a long time. We did it more, because there weren't as many barriers. He did a couple of things to break my full confidence in him. Since then, it's just a little harder for me to 'get there.' I recognize the inner workings. And that I do trust him now. So I work on that oxytocin, and making sure it's 'used' frequently enough to keep on rolling.
Anonymous
10/20/2016 08:05
Subject: Re:Am I forever at fault no matter what I've done since then?
If she wants intimacy from someone but is unwilling to get that from you, I'd ask her point-blank if she wants a divorce.