Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your daughter is correct.

There is no point to an elite college.... Unless your intention is to have rich friends.

The point to life is to be a good person, have good friends, be kind to strangers, give back to your community and (hopefully) have a close family.

A surgeon from Penn is no happier than a plumber, if you can afford a house, food, have close friends.

Once you have a certain amount of money, happiness does not increase with more money and eventually declines.

dcum's love to laud plumbers and blue collar trades without actually being blue collar themselves. there's a reason why blue collar moms and dads also push their kids to college. blue collar people (god bless them) pay with their bodies at age 50+.

I grew up in a blue collar family and have lots of family/friends who work in trades. There is a difference between blue collar work in which you work for a large company (like at a steel mill) and a trade in which you are self-employed (like a plumber or electrician).

My friends/relatives who work in trades self-employed are doing well. Their skills are in demand and always will be. They aren't at the whim and fancy of CEOs and union bosses who don't necessarily have their best interests in mind.

Many people who work self-employed at trades reach a point by age 50 in which they have enough business to support hiring people to work for them to do the more physical work. They are much better positioned than white-collar workers at 50 who face getting replaced by younger professionals who are willing to work 60 hour weeks for half the pay.

If I had a child who seemed to have a knack for trades, I would encourage them to go into that field. They can still go to college, but I would want them to get certified in their trade as well.

Heading into the future, the people with hard skills (in trades) will have far more options and mobility than white collar workers in the rat race.

I'd still encourage college, but I wouldn't emphasize an Ivy or even an expensive school. The best path a high school senior could take right now to position himself or herself well for the future is to get a bachelor's from a less expensive school coupled with a trade. Even going to community college for two years and taking classes in a trade (in order to get a certification) and then going nights at a state school to finish for a BA is a good path.

I think that the current employment climate favors certifications over degrees.

No substitute for an elite campus. Folks that haven't attended one can't possibly understand the diff in ethos.

It's tacky to say out loud, I guess, but the diff between her social circle and prospective spouses at Penn and Big State U is night and day.

On-campus recruiting is night and day.

Grad school placement is night and day.

And on and on.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your daughter is correct.

There is no point to an elite college.... Unless your intention is to have rich friends.

The point to life is to be a good person, have good friends, be kind to strangers, give back to your community and (hopefully) have a close family.

A surgeon from Penn is no happier than a plumber, if you can afford a house, food, have close friends.

Once you have a certain amount of money, happiness does not increase with more money and eventually declines.

dcum's love to laud plumbers and blue collar trades without actually being blue collar themselves. there's a reason why blue collar moms and dads also push their kids to college. blue collar people (god bless them) pay with their bodies at age 50+.

+ 1

Anonymous wrote:Your daughter is correct.

There is no point to an elite college.... Unless your intention is to have rich friends.

The point to life is to be a good person, have good friends, be kind to strangers, give back to your community and (hopefully) have a close family.

A surgeon from Penn is no happier than a plumber, if you can afford a house, food, have close friends.

Once you have a certain amount of money, happiness does not increase with more money and eventually declines.

What? Or to have the kind of career that only an elite college can open for you? I work in finance and I know there are banks and money managers who will *only* recruit from the ivy league. They do that because they can, because they get SO many applicants that they can easily afford to be choosy. I know finance is not most people's idea of a good time so substitute any competitive career (journalism, magazines, book publishing, politics, museum curating, certain high profile tech companies) for what I just said.

Tell her that pushing herself now means she will have more options down the road, which is just plain truth. Say she decides she wants to major in art history. An art history major from Penn will be better off than one from Penn State, kwim?

If she is beautiful she be accessible to rich men probably in college

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In reference to the rat race, the fixation with elite colleges, all hoop jumping, all the tutoring, etc. For a moment I was speechless. In the end I just told her, "You'll regret it if you don't push yourself." What is the point?

Hmm, I regret pushing myself so hard. I pushed very hard through high school, went to a highly selective college, graduated with honors but hugely burnt out, and spent the next 5 years trying to find myself again. I had no idea why I was there or what I wanted to learn or do. If you arrive at the prestigious school the wrong way -- just because you did everything your parents asked -- you won't know what to make of the opportunities there.

I regret not pushing myself hard enough - first in high school, then at average college, then on to struggle career-wise for years, never quite knowing what I wanted to do with my life. Not to blame my parents, but I was one of 6 kids and there wasn't a lot of money and resources when I was in high school in the late 70s. There has got to be a middle ground now for our kids between the fixation on elite colleges & jumping through hoops, and just plodding along with no direction.

Anonymous wrote:I went to Duke. I was burnt out and unhappy before I even got there. I didn't like the campus culture and was too much of a sourpuss to just suck it up and enjoy what I could. I was in desperate need of advice on my career path and no one seemed to give a shit about me, plus I was too naive to understand that my classmates who all seemed to be extraordinary, stylish, able to drink and party all weekend and still get straight A's, were also kind of insecure and miserable.

It stunk. Eventually I realized I have no more Fs left to give, and I have been so much happier since then and I wish I had come to this place far sooner.

Don't let your kid be me!

duke and penn have poor campus cultures.

there are elite schools that have good cultures though - pomona is one.

I went to Duke. I was burnt out and unhappy before I even got there. I didn't like the campus culture and was too much of a sourpuss to just suck it up and enjoy what I could. I was in desperate need of advice on my career path and no one seemed to give a shit about me, plus I was too naive to understand that my classmates who all seemed to be extraordinary, stylish, able to drink and party all weekend and still get straight A's, were also kind of insecure and miserable.

It stunk. Eventually I realized I have no more Fs left to give, and I have been so much happier since then and I wish I had come to this place far sooner.

Don't let your kid be me!

Anonymous wrote:Your daughter is correct.

There is no point to an elite college.... Unless your intention is to have rich friends.

The point to life is to be a good person, have good friends, be kind to strangers, give back to your community and (hopefully) have a close family.

A surgeon from Penn is no happier than a plumber, if you can afford a house, food, have close friends.

Once you have a certain amount of money, happiness does not increase with more money and eventually declines.

dcum's love to laud plumbers and blue collar trades without actually being blue collar themselves. there's a reason why blue collar moms and dads also push their kids to college. blue collar people (god bless them) pay with their bodies at age 50+.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The point is that not hating your life, having money to experience the world, and being able to take care of yourself until your death are pretty key points in having a worthy existence. The hoop jumping of high school and college are building blocks to those goals.

Now...the push to be super duper elite, whatever that is, is a different question, and one that I wouldn't know how to answer because I have no such desire.

+1

I would add, having knowledge to experience the world. Going abroad and knowing the history of the places you visit, knowing something about music, dance literature, science. It makes for a rich experience of the world.

Talk about a false dichotomy. You don't have to go to an elite school for ANY of that. Not even close.

Agree. That is why I agreed "+1" with the PP, including her last line.

Anonymous wrote:Stanley Hauerwas wrote a beautiful piece in the magazine First Things back in 2010 for Christian students heading off to college. That's its primary point of view, but the following resonates for everyone, I think:

"To be a student is a calling. Your parents are setting up accounts to pay the bills, or you are scraping together your own resources and taking out loans, or a scholarship is making college possible. Whatever the practical source, the end result is the same. You are privileged to enter a time—four years!—during which your main job is to listen to lectures, attend seminars, go to labs, and read books.

It is an extraordinary gift. In a world of deep injustice and violence, a people exists that thinks some can be given time to study."

The problems of the world are huge, and we want our children to learn empathy, argument, reason, and knowledge, to be able to solve the big problems and to be of service to one another in our communities. That's the point. And she can do it anywhere, not just at Penn or Duke. (Though if she goes to Duke, she should find an excuse to take a class with Hauerwas!)

Full article here if anyone is interested: https://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/10/go-with-god.

Thanks for sharing!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The point is that not hating your life, having money to experience the world, and being able to take care of yourself until your death are pretty key points in having a worthy existence. The hoop jumping of high school and college are building blocks to those goals.

Now...the push to be super duper elite, whatever that is, is a different question, and one that I wouldn't know how to answer because I have no such desire.

+1

I would add, having knowledge to experience the world. Going abroad and knowing the history of the places you visit, knowing something about music, dance literature, science. It makes for a rich experience of the world.

Talk about a false dichotomy. You don't have to go to an elite school for ANY of that. Not even close.

Anonymous wrote:The point is that not hating your life, having money to experience the world, and being able to take care of yourself until your death are pretty key points in having a worthy existence. The hoop jumping of high school and college are building blocks to those goals.

Now...the push to be super duper elite, whatever that is, is a different question, and one that I wouldn't know how to answer because I have no such desire.

+1

I would add, having knowledge to experience the world. Going abroad and knowing the history of the places you visit, knowing something about music, dance literature, science. It makes for a rich experience of the world.

Your daughter is correct.

There is no point to an elite college.... Unless your intention is to have rich friends.

The point to life is to be a good person, have good friends, be kind to strangers, give back to your community and (hopefully) have a close family.

A surgeon from Penn is no happier than a plumber, if you can afford a house, food, have close friends.

Once you have a certain amount of money, happiness does not increase with more money and eventually declines.