Anonymous
Post 09/07/2016 20:22     Subject: Separating from mentally ill spouse - what about the kids
If he's been a good father I'd trust your gut instincts. Us lawyers always deal with the situations when things go wrong and see outlandish cases. So we are risk averse and fill your head with What if this happened what if that happened. But we don't know how your spouse will react. We use logic and reasoning but frankly sometimes a reasonable course of action may not be the best one for an individual.
Anonymous
Post 09/07/2016 14:06     Subject: Separating from mentally ill spouse - what about the kids

If he's not formally diagnosed, he will have custody with you. So please consult a lawyer who knows about these things before doing anything rash!

Anonymous
Post 09/07/2016 13:51     Subject: Separating from mentally ill spouse - what about the kids
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It's not as easy as going into court and saying "My husband is mentally ill, I need custody" or else everyone would do it. Before you leave, make sure you have the proper documentation necessary to secure custody and supervised visitation when it comes down to it.


Yes. I am a family law attorney. You should speak with your attorney about the nature of the evidence that you have and the likelihood of success of a motion for supervised visitation. Without a diagnosis, this can be a tough case. I'm so sorry your family is going through this. I wish all of you, including your husband, peace and comfort.


Thank you. This is OP. Must say I am confused by these later posts as it is not my goal to keep my children from their father but everybody tells me I need to keep kids save by removing them from him. What does the system want from me?


Hi OP. So sorry you are going through this mess. It is indeed heartbreaking and traumatic. Your description of having PTSD caught my eye, because it is an apt description of the feelings and symptoms I had when I was living with and then splitting from my mentally ill partner. I hope you are able to work with a good psychologist who can help guide you to deal with your own trauma from this as well as educate you about your partner's likely illness and how to manage him. That person should also help you focus on how to structure your own life so you can create an environment in which you and your kids thrive even if things deteriorate with your partner.

The system is indeed confusing. It is set up to protect the rights of parents by not taking away children easily. It also protects children from separation from parents in all but the worst circumstances because the evidence shows that on balance keeping families together is better than separation or sending kids into the system. But, these goals are quite different from the "best interests of the child" standard which sometimes affects custody decisions. I think we all know that your kids would be best off living with you full time so there basic needs are met, but they will also benefit from having an understanding of their Dad's illness and a relationship with him long term. What exactly that looks like will vary over time and as your DH's illness changes. What you say to young kids will differ from what you can explain to a 16 y.o.

Some of the things my exDH was doing during bipolar hypomania were worrisome, but, lawyers made it clear that "worrisome" wasn't enough to ensure full custody to me, and that should DH choose to fight for it, he would get at least 50% custody. I focused a lot on my not getting custody, when I should have focused on whether DH would really have the desire and the resources to fight for custody. That turned out not to be the case. I also should have focused on the fact that the attorney was also telling me that I would absolutely get at least 50% custody. Having one stable healthy safe home can impact a child much more than having an unstable home 50% or 100% of the time.

Sorting out custody is difficult. You need to be working with a very good attorney, but not necessarily a highly aggressive one. You will have to choose a mixture of legal strategies and psychological ones. Sometimes the law isn't the best way to get what you want. Also, be aware that arguing rationally with a mentally ill person isn't really going to solve a lot of problems. You may have to think from his perspective and try to get him to understand what would make him do what you want him to do and what is best for kids. For example, if he really thinks there is a conspiracy against him, wouldn't it be better if he lived separately from you and the kids so that he could draw the conspiracy away from you and protect you? Of course, you could allow him to visit and see the kids, and maybe "they" (i.e. the conspiracy) wouldn't notice that so much.

My kids were very young when I realized what was going on. For the first few years, I stayed in the relationship, monitored everything (finances, whereabouts, etc.) and tried to be present all the time with DH and kids. It was very stressful and not something that could be maintained long term. The circumstances of my ex's bipolar illness meant that I eventually caught him at something that was a clear relationship ending behavior. I was able to confront him with the evidence and tell him he had to move out. I thought very carefully about how to set it up (disclosure of evidence and decision in a psychologist's office where we were for "couples counseling" along with the demand that he move out within 3 days). He complied. I made it clear that he would still have access to the kids even though he was moving out of the home.

I kept my promise and still let him see the kids. I made judgments every day about how stable I thought he was and whether it was OK to leave him alone with the kids depending on what they were doing. If I thought it wasn't OK, I would never say, "No, you can't you're too ill." Rather, I would just maneuver the situation so I could go along. The more he realized I wasn't keeping the kids from him, the more he actually let go of them. Sometimes he would cancel or show up late. I was never angry, I just rolled with it. In retrospect, when he was more ill, he would simply not spend as much time with the kids. Heartbreaking for them in some ways, but better than being with him when he wasn't capable of caring for them.

Obviously, your approach needs to be tailored to your situation. Because we were engaged but not married and our finances were not heavily co-mingled, I didn't have to get him to agree to anything in writing to protect myself financially. Crazy decisions and debts made by a mentally ill spouse can ruin your future for a long time, so get good legal advice about exactly how much separation you need to protect yourself. I quickly was able to maneuver into a voluntary verbal agreement where the kids lived with me full time and exDH came over to spend time with them on a regular schedule. It was very hard to be basically the sole parent, but that is what it is.

We were lucky that exDH never had a full psychotic break and was never physically violent, although he lost multiple jobs over the years. YMMV.

Two great books to read are "Burden of Sympathy" by David Karp about what our obligations are to our mentally ill family members and "I'm not Sick, I don't need help" by Xavier Amador, about how to talk to a mentally ill loved one in a productive way to get them to accept treatment or behavior changes.

NAMI is also a great resource. Take one of their Family to Family courses. Use their support group. Also, look at the information on the Treatment Advocacy Center's website. Commitment standards vary by state statute. Some states are easier to get a loved one on a psychiatric evaluation hold than in other states.

Is your DH still able to hold down a job? How old are your kids? Do you have a good divorce attorney guiding you to plan the steps to change the family set-up? Have you told any friends and family members what's going on? Do you have a job and do you think you can maintain it thru this?


Dear PP! Thank you so much for typing this out, you understand exactly what I am going through. I wish there was a way to meet in real life. Anyway, I will read those books.
FYI, he works but has a very spotty employment history and has made many financially very bad decisions that impact him and the family. I have told several people in my environment and am floored by the support I have been getting. I am financially independent - not well off but enough to feed my kids and put a roof over our head.
Anonymous
Post 09/07/2016 13:20     Subject: Separating from mentally ill spouse - what about the kids
Sounds like bipolar. Mania can cause paranoia.
Anonymous
Post 09/07/2016 11:35     Subject: Separating from mentally ill spouse - what about the kids
Anonymous wrote:

Hi OP. So sorry you are going through this mess. It is indeed heartbreaking and traumatic. Your description of having PTSD caught my eye, because it is an apt description of the feelings and symptoms I had when I was living with and then splitting from my mentally ill partner. I hope you are able to work with a good psychologist who can help guide you to deal with your own trauma from this as well as educate you about your partner's likely illness and how to manage him. That person should also help you focus on how to structure your own life so you can create an environment in which you and your kids thrive even if things deteriorate with your partner.


I'm not the OP, though I am going through a similar situation in that I'm contemplating leaving a mentally unstable spouse. Wanted to say thank you for the above (sometimes, people on DCUM can be helpful).
Anonymous
Post 09/07/2016 10:58     Subject: Separating from mentally ill spouse - what about the kids
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It's not as easy as going into court and saying "My husband is mentally ill, I need custody" or else everyone would do it. Before you leave, make sure you have the proper documentation necessary to secure custody and supervised visitation when it comes down to it.


Yes. I am a family law attorney. You should speak with your attorney about the nature of the evidence that you have and the likelihood of success of a motion for supervised visitation. Without a diagnosis, this can be a tough case. I'm so sorry your family is going through this. I wish all of you, including your husband, peace and comfort.


Thank you. This is OP. Must say I am confused by these later posts as it is not my goal to keep my children from their father but everybody tells me I need to keep kids save by removing them from him. What does the system want from me?


Hi OP. So sorry you are going through this mess. It is indeed heartbreaking and traumatic. Your description of having PTSD caught my eye, because it is an apt description of the feelings and symptoms I had when I was living with and then splitting from my mentally ill partner. I hope you are able to work with a good psychologist who can help guide you to deal with your own trauma from this as well as educate you about your partner's likely illness and how to manage him. That person should also help you focus on how to structure your own life so you can create an environment in which you and your kids thrive even if things deteriorate with your partner.

The system is indeed confusing. It is set up to protect the rights of parents by not taking away children easily. It also protects children from separation from parents in all but the worst circumstances because the evidence shows that on balance keeping families together is better than separation or sending kids into the system. But, these goals are quite different from the "best interests of the child" standard which sometimes affects custody decisions. I think we all know that your kids would be best off living with you full time so there basic needs are met, but they will also benefit from having an understanding of their Dad's illness and a relationship with him long term. What exactly that looks like will vary over time and as your DH's illness changes. What you say to young kids will differ from what you can explain to a 16 y.o.

Some of the things my exDH was doing during bipolar hypomania were worrisome, but, lawyers made it clear that "worrisome" wasn't enough to ensure full custody to me, and that should DH choose to fight for it, he would get at least 50% custody. I focused a lot on my not getting custody, when I should have focused on whether DH would really have the desire and the resources to fight for custody. That turned out not to be the case. I also should have focused on the fact that the attorney was also telling me that I would absolutely get at least 50% custody. Having one stable healthy safe home can impact a child much more than having an unstable home 50% or 100% of the time.

Sorting out custody is difficult. You need to be working with a very good attorney, but not necessarily a highly aggressive one. You will have to choose a mixture of legal strategies and psychological ones. Sometimes the law isn't the best way to get what you want. Also, be aware that arguing rationally with a mentally ill person isn't really going to solve a lot of problems. You may have to think from his perspective and try to get him to understand what would make him do what you want him to do and what is best for kids. For example, if he really thinks there is a conspiracy against him, wouldn't it be better if he lived separately from you and the kids so that he could draw the conspiracy away from you and protect you? Of course, you could allow him to visit and see the kids, and maybe "they" (i.e. the conspiracy) wouldn't notice that so much.

My kids were very young when I realized what was going on. For the first few years, I stayed in the relationship, monitored everything (finances, whereabouts, etc.) and tried to be present all the time with DH and kids. It was very stressful and not something that could be maintained long term. The circumstances of my ex's bipolar illness meant that I eventually caught him at something that was a clear relationship ending behavior. I was able to confront him with the evidence and tell him he had to move out. I thought very carefully about how to set it up (disclosure of evidence and decision in a psychologist's office where we were for "couples counseling" along with the demand that he move out within 3 days). He complied. I made it clear that he would still have access to the kids even though he was moving out of the home.

I kept my promise and still let him see the kids. I made judgments every day about how stable I thought he was and whether it was OK to leave him alone with the kids depending on what they were doing. If I thought it wasn't OK, I would never say, "No, you can't you're too ill." Rather, I would just maneuver the situation so I could go along. The more he realized I wasn't keeping the kids from him, the more he actually let go of them. Sometimes he would cancel or show up late. I was never angry, I just rolled with it. In retrospect, when he was more ill, he would simply not spend as much time with the kids. Heartbreaking for them in some ways, but better than being with him when he wasn't capable of caring for them.

Obviously, your approach needs to be tailored to your situation. Because we were engaged but not married and our finances were not heavily co-mingled, I didn't have to get him to agree to anything in writing to protect myself financially. Crazy decisions and debts made by a mentally ill spouse can ruin your future for a long time, so get good legal advice about exactly how much separation you need to protect yourself. I quickly was able to maneuver into a voluntary verbal agreement where the kids lived with me full time and exDH came over to spend time with them on a regular schedule. It was very hard to be basically the sole parent, but that is what it is.

We were lucky that exDH never had a full psychotic break and was never physically violent, although he lost multiple jobs over the years. YMMV.

Two great books to read are "Burden of Sympathy" by David Karp about what our obligations are to our mentally ill family members and "I'm not Sick, I don't need help" by Xavier Amador, about how to talk to a mentally ill loved one in a productive way to get them to accept treatment or behavior changes.

NAMI is also a great resource. Take one of their Family to Family courses. Use their support group. Also, look at the information on the Treatment Advocacy Center's website. Commitment standards vary by state statute. Some states are easier to get a loved one on a psychiatric evaluation hold than in other states.

Is your DH still able to hold down a job? How old are your kids? Do you have a good divorce attorney guiding you to plan the steps to change the family set-up? Have you told any friends and family members what's going on? Do you have a job and do you think you can maintain it thru this?
Anonymous
Post 09/07/2016 10:13     Subject: Re:Separating from mentally ill spouse - what about the kids
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:This is schizophrenia. I am sorry, but you must protect yourself and your kids. Get you and kids to a safe place and then work on logistics of divorce. You can do it.


Are you a medical professional? This sounds more like delusional disorder to me, but it's really irresponsible to diagnose people on the internet based on a paragraph description.

Stop trying to make OP panic.


Or it could be florid mania of bipolar. Or it could be a reaction to medication.

Only a treating psychiatrist with experience in schizophrenia and mood disorders will be able to make a good differential diagnosis.
Anonymous
Post 09/07/2016 00:32     Subject: Re:Separating from mentally ill spouse - what about the kids
I'd consider calling the NAMI helpline and asking them.

http://www.nami.org/Find-Support/Family-Members-and-Caregivers
Anonymous
Post 09/07/2016 00:07     Subject: Separating from mentally ill spouse - what about the kids
Op, what about I having him committed? Is that an option? It seems like the easier way to avoid custody issues is for him to be the one who leaves.

Plus, as others have said maybe he can get treatment. And regardless of whether you divorce or not, he's still the kids' dad.
Anonymous
Post 09/06/2016 21:05     Subject: Separating from mentally ill spouse - what about the kids
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It's not as easy as going into court and saying "My husband is mentally ill, I need custody" or else everyone would do it. Before you leave, make sure you have the proper documentation necessary to secure custody and supervised visitation when it comes down to it.


Yes. I am a family law attorney. You should speak with your attorney about the nature of the evidence that you have and the likelihood of success of a motion for supervised visitation. Without a diagnosis, this can be a tough case. I'm so sorry your family is going through this. I wish all of you, including your husband, peace and comfort.


Thank you. This is OP. Must say I am confused by these later posts as it is not my goal to keep my children from their father but everybody tells me I need to keep kids save by removing them from him. What does the system want from me?
Anonymous
Post 09/06/2016 20:07     Subject: Separating from mentally ill spouse - what about the kids
OP, have you stopped loving your DH? If he is mentally ill, there is a chance he could get well again. You took vows in sickness and in health. Have you considered the possibility of a legal separation with the carrot of reunification if he gets treatment?

Does he have any firearms?

Has there ever been a time you felt unsafe with him? You can call the police and have him taken to a hospital for evaluation if you think he is having a psychotic break. It is hard to do, but you may just be successful in getting a psych hold. With my brother, who suffered from paranoia and delusions when he was manic, we once were lucky enough to get a 72 hour hold, and he agreed to a voluntary commitment after that, which lasted just long enough for his meds to kick in and restore him to reality. (18 years later we were not so lucky - ER said he was t an immediate danger to himself or others, so no hold - and he died by suicide. But the first successful police-assisted ER visit gave him 18 more mostly stable years of life.)

You need for you and the kids to be safe. His sadness At losing custody for a while has to be secondary to that. "The kids love you, and when you are well again you will see them. You are not safe for them right now. Please get treatment."
Anonymous
Post 09/06/2016 19:20     Subject: Separating from mentally ill spouse - what about the kids
Anonymous wrote:It's not as easy as going into court and saying "My husband is mentally ill, I need custody" or else everyone would do it. Before you leave, make sure you have the proper documentation necessary to secure custody and supervised visitation when it comes down to it.


Yes. I am a family law attorney. You should speak with your attorney about the nature of the evidence that you have and the likelihood of success of a motion for supervised visitation. Without a diagnosis, this can be a tough case. I'm so sorry your family is going through this. I wish all of you, including your husband, peace and comfort.
Anonymous
Post 09/06/2016 19:17     Subject: Re:Separating from mentally ill spouse - what about the kids
Anonymous wrote:This is schizophrenia. I am sorry, but you must protect yourself and your kids. Get you and kids to a safe place and then work on logistics of divorce. You can do it.


Are you a medical professional? This sounds more like delusional disorder to me, but it's really irresponsible to diagnose people on the internet based on a paragraph description.

Stop trying to make OP panic.
Anonymous
Post 09/06/2016 19:13     Subject: Separating from mentally ill spouse - what about the kids
It's not as easy as going into court and saying "My husband is mentally ill, I need custody" or else everyone would do it. Before you leave, make sure you have the proper documentation necessary to secure custody and supervised visitation when it comes down to it.