Anonymous wrote:I prize integrity even more than civility.

Tell us how much integrity Trump showed when he calls John McCain a loser and insults other war veterans.

Anonymous wrote:The question made me recall a couple of passages from Heinlein. (Granted, Heinlein is not who I would usually turn to for political philosophy, but he had his good points.)

Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untravelled, the naive, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as “empty,” “meaningless,” or “dishonest,” and scorn to use them. No matter how “pure” their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too well at best. (Time Enough for Love, 1973)

But there’s more to it than that:

...a dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. Lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than a riot.

This symptom is especially serious in that an individual displaying it never thinks of it as a sign of ill health but as proof of his/her strength. (Friday, 1982)

Rudeness written off as "PC" may seem like a little thing–a tiny annoyance to be lived with, but it seems that this kind of sickness in a society starts at the top - both in the home as well as in government.

When we have a candidate for President making gross incivility and vulgarity the standard for political discourse, legitimizing the use of such techniques for his followers, and dismissing the usual social lubricants as "weakness" and "PC," we have the beginnings of the kind of sickness that Heinlein was describing.

Showing courtesy to others, using good manners, all of the things your mother (or someone) tried to teach you about politeness, those are signs of respect for each other. When you dismiss them as "PC" or signs of weakness then you demonstrate that our culture is rotting because you are choosing not to show respect and be polite to the other members of your society.

When apologizing when you (or the country you lead) have made a mistake or caused harm to others is viewed as weakness, then that social lubricant has started to break down.

Thank you for this -- wonderful contribution!

Anonymous wrote:If you really think public civility isn't important, I challenge you to go live in one of the many developing countries in which people do not treat each other civilly because people are either too poor, or the rule of law is too weak, or there was a recent war and it upended societal norms. Enjoy being pushed out of the way or jumped in front of in non-existent queues for limited supplies of goods. Enjoy being spat on or pissed on or your home's front door shat upon because people are drunk in public and no one enforces any sort of decency. Enjoy having your things stolen if you're "stupid" enough not to have bars on every window and an alarm and live in a gated community.

God, Trump supporters are so ignorant. They can't even imagine what a real society without civility looks like. Travel a little, OP. You'll have your answer. It's a freaking nightmare to live in a society in which people treat each other like enemies as a matter of daily life.

Hmm, you obviously don't hold yourself to standards of civility.

Civility is one thing. But I well remember when Jon Stewart et al. used to complain about things becoming too partisan. Query what they would have replaced partisanship with. But I guess one can be both partisan and civil. I can tolerate a high degree of tough talk, and we shouldn't get the sports from it, but Trump crosses the line way too often with weird, vulgar insults.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Civility costs nothing and buys everything."

uh huh

It's all PC BS. I'd rather hear the truth than listen to someone spout off euphemisms.

If you honestly think there's a conflict between being civil and telling the truth, then I feel sorry for you because that opinion suggests something about your life experience that is a bit sad.

One can disagree without being disagreeable. It happens in good families all the time. It happens in countries too. And in a country like ours, where we value a wide range of political views, civility is critical for keeping the peace and helping us find common ground in a way that lets us move forward. Do you really think American democracy can survive in a country of people who spend their days insulting and demonizing each other? Let me tell you something truthful: this is what freedom means. Freedom means we're polite. Because although we are free to insult each other, to do so will shred the ties that bind us, and it is those ties that protect freedom. And that, though it sounds like hyperbole, truly is the end of America.

You really consider that "PC BS"?

^^ Rudeness written off as [b][u]not being[\b][\u] "PC"

The question made me recall a couple of passages from Heinlein. (Granted, Heinlein is not who I would usually turn to for political philosophy, but he had his good points.)

Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untravelled, the naive, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as “empty,” “meaningless,” or “dishonest,” and scorn to use them. No matter how “pure” their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too well at best. (Time Enough for Love, 1973)

But there’s more to it than that:

...a dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. Lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than a riot.

This symptom is especially serious in that an individual displaying it never thinks of it as a sign of ill health but as proof of his/her strength. (Friday, 1982)

Rudeness written off as "PC" may seem like a little thing–a tiny annoyance to be lived with, but it seems that this kind of sickness in a society starts at the top - both in the home as well as in government.

When we have a candidate for President making gross incivility and vulgarity the standard for political discourse, legitimizing the use of such techniques for his followers, and dismissing the usual social lubricants as "weakness" and "PC," we have the beginnings of the kind of sickness that Heinlein was describing.

Showing courtesy to others, using good manners, all of the things your mother (or someone) tried to teach you about politeness, those are signs of respect for each other. When you dismiss them as "PC" or signs of weakness then you demonstrate that our culture is rotting because you are choosing not to show respect and be polite to the other members of your society.

When apologizing when you (or the country you lead) have made a mistake or caused harm to others is viewed as weakness, then that social lubricant has started to break down.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Civility costs nothing and buys everything."

uh huh

It's all PC BS. I'd rather hear the truth than listen to someone spout off euphemisms.

Well the truth is you are stupid. Did that feel good?

ad hominem attack

But you're too stupid to figure that out, I suppose.

OP here. The conversation above is basically a microcosm of what Donald Trump is doing to this country.

Yes and an explanation of why it's important to be civil. Do your Trump-loving friends want to live in a country where, if they criticize the President's policies, he tweets out a picture of your wife and calls her ugly and says he wants to punch you in the face?

Demagogues are always disastrous when elected. Scapegoating and name calling is not a viable governing strategy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Civility costs nothing and buys everything."

uh huh

It's all PC BS. I'd rather hear the truth than listen to someone spout off euphemisms.

The truth is the white men who don't have a degree are themselves to blame. Unemployment is below 3% for those with a degree and the economy was never better. There are so many vacancies for engineers, software developers, those with business experience, MBA types, RNs, Medical Technologists, etc. There is a huge shortage in healthcare for physicians, Hospital administrators, dentists etc.

I am into technology business and I have vacancies for which there are not many eligible applicants and endup filing it with smarter Asians. They work very hard and don't give preference to vacation and work 9 hour days without complaints for the same pay as anyone else.

You don't like PC, right. So here is the truth. More than a few White men feel they are entitled to a great salary without any marketable skills, for the fewest hours they can put in pretending to be I. Office for 8 hours. Even before the clock hits 8 hours they are out the door citing work-life balance. This country wasn't built by these lazy, entitled white men who feel they are superior to any minority. But intelligence and a good education are not encoded in the white gene. Everyone has to work hard in school and college to get smart. I see so many Asians do it.

The days of feeling superior because you are white are over. This is global economy and the smartest will win. So no amount of blaming it on immigrants and brown/black people will make the poorly educated whites smarter. That is the reality that trump voters don't like to face. Trump won't even make his clothing in USA. And you think he will bring back jobs here. Keep dreaming.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Civility costs nothing and buys everything."

uh huh

It's all PC BS. I'd rather hear the truth than listen to someone spout off euphemisms.

Well the truth is you are stupid. Did that feel good?

ad hominem attack

But you're too stupid to figure that out, I suppose.

OP here. The conversation above is basically a microcosm of what Donald Trump is doing to this country.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Civility costs nothing and buys everything."

uh huh

It's all PC BS. I'd rather hear the truth than listen to someone spout off euphemisms.

Well the truth is you are stupid. Did that feel good?

ad hominem attack

But you're too stupid to figure that out, I suppose.