You don't want people coming to teaching for the pay. I

Most young people quit because of the bureaucracy

let teachers teach without all the red tape

Treat education like any other organization. Cut the bottom 5-10% every year and keep using the existing pay scale for the rest

Many of these comments are insulting. I have an engineering degree and a masters in education. I am a math teacher because I love working with students, I love math and I have the best coworkers anyone could want. They are intelligent experienced professionals. Many of us have degrees in our field and have switched careers because teaching is our passion. Please do not come forward with cookie cutter methods to improve education when you have never spent a day as a classroom teacher. There is much more to teaching high school than content knowledge.

OP, teachers are paid with taxes--not going to happen.

Anonymous wrote:I'd like to see a requirement that teachers score above the 75th percentile in both the verbal and quantitative sections of the GRE before they can be licensed. You could set a lower percentile for the very lowest grades.

Teaching suffers as a profession because it is thought one doesn't have to be very smart to become one--witness the low bar for entering a school of education.

The profession has never recovered from the outflow of all the best and brightest women once they were able to join the work force as scientists, doctors, lawyers, and business executives and were no longer limited to just nursing, secretarial work, and teaching.

NP here. I'm a teacher and these sorts of predictable comments are always so infuriating. I was Phi Beta Kappa at an Ivy, then went to Harvard for grad school. I have never scored less than the 99th percentile on any standardized test I've ever taken going all the way back to the SAT. Over my long career, I've taught in public and private schools in three states, and my colleagues have almost all been highly educated--at least as educated as my friends in other professional fields. Sure, this is anecdotal, but MANY, MANY teachers are extremely intelligent and highly educated. This sort of disdain is unhelpful.

Back to OP's proposal:

Your proposal solves the problem of school districts not wanting to increase pay for (supposed) poor performing teachers. You have a proposal that would start 'better" teachers on an advanced pay scale. They would presumably also end up higher on the other end of the pay scale after years of teaching.

What make you think school districts are interested in spending more money on teacher salaries though? What makes you think local and state governments, and the federal government, have the budget to forgive student debt? Where is this bucket of money going to come from?

Sorry I meant malpractice INSURANCE fees.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I posted this before, but it still stands.

I was a teacher for 6 years before leaving the profession to pursue medicine. It's strange because there are parallels to the fields, but I found a massive amount of disrespect for the importance of good pedagogy and achieving real learning outcomes (instead of generic test-based outcomes). I also felt a huge lack of respect personally. I found it frustrating because we don't want seasoned teachers. We don't want good teachers. We want cheap ones who will shut up and teach from the outline. And will be at-will employees (even though the hiring timeline for teachers runs once a year).

I got into teaching because I love childhood development, learning, and science. I found fostering these connections to be my true calling. After spending so much time, money and energy on my students, I realized that my passion doesn't matter because my classrooms aren't funded enough, my leaders (i.e. principal) do not have an interest in anything beyond beating last year's numbers, and my kids, who were from FARMS households, didn't have a framework to support their success beyond the bare walls of my classroom. I don't even think the school was invested beyond not getting shut down. The main goal was just to get above the minimum required passing rate. So, rote memorization took the day. And my county really didn't care about this population, so I gave up. Because I'm rational and realized that pushing a boulder up a hill over and over isn't a life.

No one blames me if a patient of mine who I've spent years counseling (along with their caregivers) develops a condition like type 2 diabetes. There is a sense of personal accountability in medicine (since no one wants to die), which doesn't apply to teaching (since lots of people hate learning difficult things).

Teaching is just so different. Outcomes, many of which are beyond your control, are your responsibility. Your evaluations are not based on your actual perfomance; it's driven by your students. It doesn't matter how good you are. If you don't have that support, it's a house of cards. And when I read threads like this, I just want to send each of my children's teacher an amazon gift card for supplies. Because I know how hard it is and how absolutely frustrating it is to work in a profession that is viewed in such an unfair manner.

At conferences, I hear doctors complain about the state of medicine and the decline of respect for our field. It takes a lot for me not to laugh. Yes, insurers are terrible. Negotiated rates hurt. And coming up with ways to make a decent living while not working insane amounts is hard. Yeah. It's bad, but man, I've had it worse.

I don't pay for medical supplies. I am compensated fairly and my clinical judgment is given some form of deference (even though parents still second guess me). I do a decent amount of medicine in the Medicaid space. I feel a similar burn to churn through but people tend to give me a bit more room (including insurers) when I give a medical justification. There was no parallel when I was teaching. No reason, no matter how evidence-based, mattered if it went against the fiat of numbers above all else.

I think people give me this space because they don't think they could be a doctor. I think no one bothered when I was a teacher because they felt any idiot could teach. The truth is, there are a lot of idiot physicians out there. And there are many, many teachers who are so good at what they do, they should bottle it. But only the physician is given that respect as a default. Making the training more difficult won't solve this because it's not only the coursework that matters. It's the years spent refining and developing in the classroom that make a great teacher. Too bad the bulk of people leave the profession within five years because it's so screwed up.

I actually work less as a MD. And I make a multiple of my previous salary.

You lost me here. I think there are plenty of doctors with poor bedside manner and certainly some bad doctors. However, having seen many doctors myself and with ill family members I can tell you, it is rare I find someone incompetent. I cannot same the same about teaching. We have encountered true master teachers who deserve tremendous respect and accolades, but you cannot compare the bottom 1/4 of teachers with the bottom 1/4 of doctors unless maybe you include doctors who got their degrees at fancy off shore programs for rich kids who can't get into MD or DO programs in the US. At the bottom there are teachers who cannot write coherent sentences and they have a very poor understanding of what they teach.

PP here. There are horrible doctors. Have you had a child lately? I could point to plenty of OBGYN practices that practice bad medicine because they are lazy, risk adverse, and not up to speed on the latest medicine for maternal and fetal health. If you want to see incompent physicians, it's not terribly hard to find them. There's a wealth of malpractice and board discipline cases that are the most ergegious.

But you made my point. Everyone thinks they can be a good teacher. It's not true. And we don't respect the good one's, there is a huge incentive to be a crap one (teach to the test and stop when your kids hit benchmarks), and there's no public support for respecting the professionalism it takes to educate children.

I still stand on my other point. Doctors, beyond gross malpractice, are not held accountable for outcomes. Teachers are.

Doctor's aren't held accountable? Seriously? Do you know how often OBs are sued. Yes, some suits are warranted, but people blame them for EVERYTHING. You insist you must have a VBAC and you end up being part of the small percent where something goes wrong? Sue! They settle so many suits that are unwarranted and they pay a small fortune in malpractice fees. Many doctors are sued for things out off their control, not just obs. I'm thinking if you are a doctor maybe you are family practice or psychiatry because you seem out of touch with some of the reality of medicine.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I posted this before, but it still stands.

I was a teacher for 6 years before leaving the profession to pursue medicine. It's strange because there are parallels to the fields, but I found a massive amount of disrespect for the importance of good pedagogy and achieving real learning outcomes (instead of generic test-based outcomes). I also felt a huge lack of respect personally. I found it frustrating because we don't want seasoned teachers. We don't want good teachers. We want cheap ones who will shut up and teach from the outline. And will be at-will employees (even though the hiring timeline for teachers runs once a year).

I got into teaching because I love childhood development, learning, and science. I found fostering these connections to be my true calling. After spending so much time, money and energy on my students, I realized that my passion doesn't matter because my classrooms aren't funded enough, my leaders (i.e. principal) do not have an interest in anything beyond beating last year's numbers, and my kids, who were from FARMS households, didn't have a framework to support their success beyond the bare walls of my classroom. I don't even think the school was invested beyond not getting shut down. The main goal was just to get above the minimum required passing rate. So, rote memorization took the day. And my county really didn't care about this population, so I gave up. Because I'm rational and realized that pushing a boulder up a hill over and over isn't a life.

No one blames me if a patient of mine who I've spent years counseling (along with their caregivers) develops a condition like type 2 diabetes. There is a sense of personal accountability in medicine (since no one wants to die), which doesn't apply to teaching (since lots of people hate learning difficult things).

Teaching is just so different. Outcomes, many of which are beyond your control, are your responsibility. Your evaluations are not based on your actual perfomance; it's driven by your students. It doesn't matter how good you are. If you don't have that support, it's a house of cards. And when I read threads like this, I just want to send each of my children's teacher an amazon gift card for supplies. Because I know how hard it is and how absolutely frustrating it is to work in a profession that is viewed in such an unfair manner.

At conferences, I hear doctors complain about the state of medicine and the decline of respect for our field. It takes a lot for me not to laugh. Yes, insurers are terrible. Negotiated rates hurt. And coming up with ways to make a decent living while not working insane amounts is hard. Yeah. It's bad, but man, I've had it worse.

I don't pay for medical supplies. I am compensated fairly and my clinical judgment is given some form of deference (even though parents still second guess me). I do a decent amount of medicine in the Medicaid space. I feel a similar burn to churn through but people tend to give me a bit more room (including insurers) when I give a medical justification. There was no parallel when I was teaching. No reason, no matter how evidence-based, mattered if it went against the fiat of numbers above all else.

I think people give me this space because they don't think they could be a doctor. I think no one bothered when I was a teacher because they felt any idiot could teach. The truth is, there are a lot of idiot physicians out there. And there are many, many teachers who are so good at what they do, they should bottle it. But only the physician is given that respect as a default. Making the training more difficult won't solve this because it's not only the coursework that matters. It's the years spent refining and developing in the classroom that make a great teacher. Too bad the bulk of people leave the profession within five years because it's so screwed up.

I actually work less as a MD. And I make a multiple of my previous salary.

You lost me here. I think there are plenty of doctors with poor bedside manner and certainly some bad doctors. However, having seen many doctors myself and with ill family members I can tell you, it is rare I find someone incompetent. I cannot same the same about teaching. We have encountered true master teachers who deserve tremendous respect and accolades, but you cannot compare the bottom 1/4 of teachers with the bottom 1/4 of doctors unless maybe you include doctors who got their degrees at fancy off shore programs for rich kids who can't get into MD or DO programs in the US. At the bottom there are teachers who cannot write coherent sentences and they have a very poor understanding of what they teach.

PP here. There are horrible doctors. Have you had a child lately? I could point to plenty of OBGYN practices that practice bad medicine because they are lazy, risk adverse, and not up to speed on the latest medicine for maternal and fetal health. If you want to see incompent physicians, it's not terribly hard to find them. There's a wealth of malpractice and board discipline cases that are the most ergegious.

But you made my point. Everyone thinks they can be a good teacher. It's not true. And we don't respect the good one's, there is a huge incentive to be a crap one (teach to the test and stop when your kids hit benchmarks), and there's no public support for respecting the professionalism it takes to educate children.

I still stand on my other point. Doctors, beyond gross malpractice, are not held accountable for outcomes. Teachers are.

Anonymous wrote:
I posted this before, but it still stands.

I was a teacher for 6 years before leaving the profession to pursue medicine. It's strange because there are parallels to the fields, but I found a massive amount of disrespect for the importance of good pedagogy and achieving real learning outcomes (instead of generic test-based outcomes). I also felt a huge lack of respect personally. I found it frustrating because we don't want seasoned teachers. We don't want good teachers. We want cheap ones who will shut up and teach from the outline. And will be at-will employees (even though the hiring timeline for teachers runs once a year).

I got into teaching because I love childhood development, learning, and science. I found fostering these connections to be my true calling. After spending so much time, money and energy on my students, I realized that my passion doesn't matter because my classrooms aren't funded enough, my leaders (i.e. principal) do not have an interest in anything beyond beating last year's numbers, and my kids, who were from FARMS households, didn't have a framework to support their success beyond the bare walls of my classroom. I don't even think the school was invested beyond not getting shut down. The main goal was just to get above the minimum required passing rate. So, rote memorization took the day. And my county really didn't care about this population, so I gave up. Because I'm rational and realized that pushing a boulder up a hill over and over isn't a life.

No one blames me if a patient of mine who I've spent years counseling (along with their caregivers) develops a condition like type 2 diabetes. There is a sense of personal accountability in medicine (since no one wants to die), which doesn't apply to teaching (since lots of people hate learning difficult things).

Teaching is just so different. Outcomes, many of which are beyond your control, are your responsibility. Your evaluations are not based on your actual perfomance; it's driven by your students. It doesn't matter how good you are. If you don't have that support, it's a house of cards. And when I read threads like this, I just want to send each of my children's teacher an amazon gift card for supplies. Because I know how hard it is and how absolutely frustrating it is to work in a profession that is viewed in such an unfair manner.

At conferences, I hear doctors complain about the state of medicine and the decline of respect for our field. It takes a lot for me not to laugh. Yes, insurers are terrible. Negotiated rates hurt. And coming up with ways to make a decent living while not working insane amounts is hard. Yeah. It's bad, but man, I've had it worse.

I don't pay for medical supplies. I am compensated fairly and my clinical judgment is given some form of deference (even though parents still second guess me). I do a decent amount of medicine in the Medicaid space. I feel a similar burn to churn through but people tend to give me a bit more room (including insurers) when I give a medical justification. There was no parallel when I was teaching. No reason, no matter how evidence-based, mattered if it went against the fiat of numbers above all else.

I think people give me this space because they don't think they could be a doctor. I think no one bothered when I was a teacher because they felt any idiot could teach. The truth is, there are a lot of idiot physicians out there. And there are many, many teachers who are so good at what they do, they should bottle it. But only the physician is given that respect as a default. Making the training more difficult won't solve this because it's not only the coursework that matters. It's the years spent refining and developing in the classroom that make a great teacher. Too bad the bulk of people leave the profession within five years because it's so screwed up.

I actually work less as a MD. And I make a multiple of my previous salary.

You lost me here. I think there are plenty of doctors with poor bedside manner and certainly some bad doctors. However, having seen many doctors myself and with ill family members I can tell you, it is rare I find someone incompetent. I cannot same the same about teaching. We have encountered true master teachers who deserve tremendous respect and accolades, but you cannot compare the bottom 1/4 of teachers with the bottom 1/4 of doctors unless maybe you include doctors who got their degrees at fancy off shore programs for rich kids who can't get into MD or DO programs in the US. At the bottom there are teachers who cannot write coherent sentences and they have a very poor understanding of what they teach.

I posted this before, but it still stands.

I was a teacher for 6 years before leaving the profession to pursue medicine. It's strange because there are parallels to the fields, but I found a massive amount of disrespect for the importance of good pedagogy and achieving real learning outcomes (instead of generic test-based outcomes). I also felt a huge lack of respect personally. I found it frustrating because we don't want seasoned teachers. We don't want good teachers. We want cheap ones who will shut up and teach from the outline. And will be at-will employees (even though the hiring timeline for teachers runs once a year).

I got into teaching because I love childhood development, learning, and science. I found fostering these connections to be my true calling. After spending so much time, money and energy on my students, I realized that my passion doesn't matter because my classrooms aren't funded enough, my leaders (i.e. principal) do not have an interest in anything beyond beating last year's numbers, and my kids, who were from FARMS households, didn't have a framework to support their success beyond the bare walls of my classroom. I don't even think the school was invested beyond not getting shut down. The main goal was just to get above the minimum required passing rate. So, rote memorization took the day. And my county really didn't care about this population, so I gave up. Because I'm rational and realized that pushing a boulder up a hill over and over isn't a life.

No one blames me if a patient of mine who I've spent years counseling (along with their caregivers) develops a condition like type 2 diabetes. There is a sense of personal accountability in medicine (since no one wants to die), which doesn't apply to teaching (since lots of people hate learning difficult things).

Teaching is just so different. Outcomes, many of which are beyond your control, are your responsibility. Your evaluations are not based on your actual perfomance; it's driven by your students. It doesn't matter how good you are. If you don't have that support, it's a house of cards. And when I read threads like this, I just want to send each of my children's teacher an amazon gift card for supplies. Because I know how hard it is and how absolutely frustrating it is to work in a profession that is viewed in such an unfair manner.

At conferences, I hear doctors complain about the state of medicine and the decline of respect for our field. It takes a lot for me not to laugh. Yes, insurers are terrible. Negotiated rates hurt. And coming up with ways to make a decent living while not working insane amounts is hard. Yeah. It's bad, but man, I've had it worse.

I don't pay for medical supplies. I am compensated fairly and my clinical judgment is given some form of deference (even though parents still second guess me). I do a decent amount of medicine in the Medicaid space. I feel a similar burn to churn through but people tend to give me a bit more room (including insurers) when I give a medical justification. There was no parallel when I was teaching. No reason, no matter how evidence-based, mattered if it went against the fiat of numbers above all else.

I think people give me this space because they don't think they could be a doctor. I think no one bothered when I was a teacher because they felt any idiot could teach. The truth is, there are a lot of idiot physicians out there. And there are many, many teachers who are so good at what they do, they should bottle it. But only the physician is given that respect as a default. Making the training more difficult won't solve this because it's not only the coursework that matters. It's the years spent refining and developing in the classroom that make a great teacher. Too bad the bulk of people leave the profession within five years because it's so screwed up.

I actually work less as a MD. And I make a multiple of my previous salary.

http://woodrow.org/fellowships/ww-teaching-fellowships/

A good program similar to what you are suggesting.

It has been around a long time. The problem with the teachers they train is retention. These are individuals with many options, and teaching gets old after a few years.

You want to improve schools? Restrict opportunities for women in the stem fields. That will do it.

Unpalatable, I know.

Anonymous wrote:OP, you are obviously not a teacher. My thought is that super smart people are smart enough not to get into teaching. Teaching involves so much more than book smarts to be successful. Honestly, teachers need support. I'm a teacher and I'm always working!! I work on school things almost every night and year round. It isn't a time management issue, I'm just spread too thin and have a very large number of students. I love the work I do, but there is A LOT to teaching. I wouldn't recommend anyone become a teacher because you really are set up to fail with our current workload and expectations.

I feel your post would be taken more seriously without the first sentence. It's defensive and it incites those who just want to fight to then chime in with how you do don't know what it's like to be a.........(fill in profession) and you get way more vacation time yada yada.. I agree with what you wrote about how teachers are pulled too much and working way more hours than people think.

OP, you are obviously not a teacher. My thought is that super smart people are smart enough not to get into teaching. Teaching involves so much more than book smarts to be successful. Honestly, teachers need support. I'm a teacher and I'm always working!! I work on school things almost every night and year round. It isn't a time management issue, I'm just spread too thin and have a very large number of students. I love the work I do, but there is A LOT to teaching. I wouldn't recommend anyone become a teacher because you really are set up to fail with our current workload and expectations.

Pp again. If you do the requirements and not the pay you'll end up with a teacher shortage which you already have in many areas.