These are from the Dubai post in the Travel forum. I'm guess the Dubai cheerleader on this thread is the same as over on that one.: http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/546607.page#8660801


"These housemaids tell their story of being beaten and harassed by their male and female employers, wages withheld. If they leave they end up in jail where they are abused or raped and have no rights and cannot testify against employers for rape or wage withholding. They have zero legal recourse.

https://youtu.be/NgPnsid4r5s

I doubt any tourists nor ex-pats living privileged lives over there would see the atrocities hidden inside the luxurious homes and buildings."

"Enjoy Dubai, where you can be arrested for simply being a woman waiting in line for a taxi: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-woman-jaile...ab-emirates/ar-BBrCCM3?ocid=sf"

Here's a decent blog post from someone that lived there for 4 years
http://bkpk.me/why-i-left-dubai-and-wont-come-back-part-12/

If you're an American, British, from another Emirate, Saudi or Kuwait. You are fine in Dubai. If you are a well off South Asian, you can do alright for yourself too but there will be more discrimination for sure and you wouldn't want you're daughters to live there beyond high school.

If you're a poor laborer or housemaid from Nigeria, Pakistan, India, Philippines, Sri Lanka, you're screwed.

To the OP, yes Dubai/UAE is definitely better than most other Muslim countries, but that's a statement that doesn't really carry much weight given the precarious notion of the comparison.

If it makes you feel better to be an armchair social justice warrior, hiding behind her computer screen in the safety of her room and deliberately turning a blind eye to the complex realities of how much of the world really operates (including the US) so that you can feel a superior sense of morality, go ahead and do it. Be my guest.

I'll just point out a few things. It won't assuage your sense of superiority but it will help other readers of this thread understand a bit more about the complexities of life in Dubai and the some of the so called scandals you hear from Amnesty and so forth.

1. The UAE is not Qatar. Never, ever confuse the two countries. Qatar has issues. Even residents in the UAE openly discuss this. Same with Saudi.

2. Most if not all of the gross abuse of low-skilled laborers are not from the major UAE construction companies, the firms building the Burj Khalifa or the Dubai metro, but from smaller construction firms almost always owned by Indians. Does it make a difference? Yes. Indians are possibly the worst employers globally, they treat their own countrymen like crap and they operate in an employer-employee dynamic that is very peculiar and bizarre to the western mindset. They are slave drivers. That's the norm. My Indian friends even acknowledge this about their own countrymen. These Indian companies will recruit laborers from India to work on contracts in the UAE, withhold the contracts, play games with the salaries and get away with it, because the Indian employees almost never ever complain. They never file complaints with the UAE Ministry of Labour either in Dubai or Abu Dhabi, because they fear for their jobs, they're afraid if they complain they won't ever get the money or be fired and sent back home immediately. There's a significant culture of fear of your boss in that world. Blaming it on the UAE is not fair as it's a preexisting problem that comes out of India. And contrary to what you may think, the MOL in the UAE have actually attempted to crack down on these abuses. One perfect example is that a few years ago a new national law was passed requiring all employers of all companies to pay salaries through a government central agency (bank transfers the wages through this agency before it hits your accounts). This was deliberately done to make sure people were being paid and to develop a track record of companies that were late in paying wages. But if a company's gone bankrupt and the money is no longer there to pay back wages, it's tough luck. The money just isn't there.

3. The majority of laborers come to the UAE and it is correct they make very little, but they actually do manage to save money and they send back almost their entire earnings home to India or Pakistan or Nepal or Africa, where they pay for their children's education, help buy a house for the family, pay off wedding debt or save for a dowry. Think about this carefully. Think about how the vast majority of the world lives on very little money so that the low wages on offer in the UAE construction sector is a big leap forward.

4. The UAE is a rapidly modernizing, rapidly developing country. There was literally nothing here fifty years ago other than several tribes living a nomadic lifestyle and a little pearl diving / trading along the coast. There was no formally organized country or civilization. Look at it today. It's impressive. But behind that veneer of modernity is a country that is changing rapidly. Just as the US did not start with all the worker's rights and women's rights and laws and protections from the get-go, neither did the UAE. But I'll tell you something, the UAE is catching up much more quickly than it took the US to free the slaves or give women the vote. Going back to the labourers again, there have been huge strides in the welfare protection and regulations around employing labourers in the last ten years. I know this because I work in the A/E/C sector and when I first came to the UAE in 2008 none of the tenders for the big government projects had anything in them about managing labourers' welfare but now they all do. They all ask for commitment to various government initiatives, they ask for our HSE policies, our employee housing policies and camp management history, initiatives for workplace safety and all that. It's even starting to appear in Qatar tenders.

5. As with above, the legal system here is evolving as the country rapidly changes. The original laws on the books were passed for a much more traditional, conservative, tribal Islamic society. It's still a proudly Islamic country but one that wants to find its place in the modern world and there's a delicate balancing of the two. Unfortunately what it means is that people do fall into the cracks. It's one of the biggest frustrations of UAE society. A woman can be arrested and prosecuted for out of wedlock sex, yet prostitution is rife and visible in certain areas. Thousands of western couples live outside of marriage without a blink from anyone. Adding complexity to the situation is the concept of "wasta," which basically means the special influence held by certain Emiratis because of their family's social and political position. Someone with strong wasta can overrule the courts, for example. This wasta tradition is left over from the old tribal days where people organized their society around allegiance between the weaker and the more powerful through this complex system of loyalty and allegiance and certain families taking on caretaker roles for lesser families. There are certainly cases where the UAE courts and UAE police would have preferred to ignore but unfortunately if someone with wasta pushes for it, they have to respond and they will always apply the letter of the law (Sharia law, unfortunately, but that is their religion).

6. The UAE is a multicultural society. Beyond the local Emiratis the greatest beneficiary of the UAE boom are South Asians (Indians and Pakistanis). There is a huge affluent Indian/Pakistani community in the UAE and they easily outnumber the Western expats. There are six apartments on my floor in my expensive building in Dubai Marina, only one is inhabited by a westerner (me). The other five are inhabited by Indians and Pakistani and African expats and we all pay around 40K USD a year in rent. If you think this is a society of white privilege laughing at poor brown people, think again.

As I always maintain, the UAE is a complicated society underneath that veneer of modernity. It's a rapidly changing, rapidly evolving country that still has one foot in the past with all its implications and yet the other foot is firmly towards the future. There are things that happen here that dismay me. It's still always in the back of my mind to be careful and never offend anyone. But it's been a fascinating experience to watch this country grown in my short time here and my god what a ride has it been and I don't regret it at all. I can tell you that I'm far less provincial, parochial and much more realistic and open minded now than I was when I first left Washington eight years ago, despite being a "progressive liberal" the entire time.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am an expat (former Washingtonian) living in Dubai.

I feel much safer in Dubai than in DC. I can walk anywhere in the entire city at any time of the day and not fear for my life.

It's not a perfect country (some of the claims mentioned on here are wildly exaggerated and even if true, that's how much of the world operates) but there's a lot of respect for women in the UAE. It's not the feminism of the US but attacks and assaults on women are taken very seriously. They even have women only taxis driven by female drivers for those who feel uncomfortable getting into a taxi driven by a male. It's a peculiar, different society despite the veneers of modernity and no accounts from Amnesty or hit pieces in the media will ever make you understand Dubai/UAE unless you've actually lived here.

There are hundreds of thousands of white western women living very happily in the UAE. And hundreds of thousands of women of other nationalities who live a much more open and free life in the UAE than in their home countries (compare Dubai to Saudi or Pakistan or India or much of Africa). Women are very integrated into the professional workforce in the UAE and the Emiratis have been proactive in pushing their own women into prominent roles and jobs.

As I said, I do not claim it's a perfect place. It is not. There are things that dismay me, but it's certainly nowhere as bad as you'd think based on what some posters are claiming and these posters haven't even been to the UAE.

As for what makes Dubai very successful: It's an oasis of stability in a region of chaos. It's the finance, banking, trading, logistics center for the entire Gulf and occupies a strategic location between Europe, Africa and Asia. Emirates is a huge force in Dubai and one of the world's largest and most successful airline and is growing by leaps and bounds. It's one of the easiest places to start new businesses and has become the preferred location for international companies wanting to have regional offices and headquarters. The economy here is much more similar to the free for all capitalism of 19th century America. And, of course, there's the mentality that if you build it, they will come. I have to say there's truth to it. Dubai built an entire metro system in just a few years from conception to operation. They build new highways and bridges and interchanges as a matter of routine and get them done quickly instead of taking years and years. It's staggering when you think about it. When I fly back to DC or anywhere to the US I'm always shocked to see how mediocre American airports and highways have become. The DC beltway? Hahaha.

As another PP said, the situation of basically slave labor, the confiscation of foreign labor workers' passports, and the laws regarding premarital sex are well documented. These are not exaggerations. They're fact.

The fact that you aren't one of the labor workers or that you have never been sexually assaulted and had to deal with the legal system there doesn't erase those realities. It just means that you haven't had to face it. There are plenty of "resorts" around the world where westerners can go and feel safe and comfortable and be completely oblivious to the reality of the people who do the service-level jobs and also be completely oblivious to the legal system -- simply because they've never had to deal with it.

Who do you think builds all of that infrastructure? Do you believe those labor workers are being treated fairly, have recourse if they are not, and can leave if they choose to do so?

For white wealthy people in the South in the 1800s, things seemed pretty good. That's because they were insulated from some of the uglier aspects of society.

If the situation with what amounts to slave labor (and specifically the confiscation of passports) weren't as well documented as it were, then maybe I'd take more seriously your post. But it is pretty well documented.

Not to mention, it was pretty clear what happened to that European woman when she reported a rape.

As another PP said, yes, the U.S. has higher crime statistics, but I feel like at least there is some legal recourse (and I'm not saying our legal system is perfect).

As for all of the infrastructure, of course they can build things faster and better. The government has complete control. They import cheap labor and confiscate their passports.

Anonymous wrote:I am an expat (former Washingtonian) living in Dubai.

I feel much safer in Dubai than in DC. I can walk anywhere in the entire city at any time of the day and not fear for my life.

It's not a perfect country (some of the claims mentioned on here are wildly exaggerated and even if true, that's how much of the world operates) but there's a lot of respect for women in the UAE. It's not the feminism of the US but attacks and assaults on women are taken very seriously. They even have women only taxis driven by female drivers for those who feel uncomfortable getting into a taxi driven by a male. It's a peculiar, different society despite the veneers of modernity and no accounts from Amnesty or hit pieces in the media will ever make you understand Dubai/UAE unless you've actually lived here.

There are hundreds of thousands of white western women living very happily in the UAE. And hundreds of thousands of women of other nationalities who live a much more open and free life in the UAE than in their home countries (compare Dubai to Saudi or Pakistan or India or much of Africa). Women are very integrated into the professional workforce in the UAE and the Emiratis have been proactive in pushing their own women into prominent roles and jobs.

As I said, I do not claim it's a perfect place. It is not. There are things that dismay me, but it's certainly nowhere as bad as you'd think based on what some posters are claiming and these posters haven't even been to the UAE.

As for what makes Dubai very successful: It's an oasis of stability in a region of chaos. It's the finance, banking, trading, logistics center for the entire Gulf and occupies a strategic location between Europe, Africa and Asia. Emirates is a huge force in Dubai and one of the world's largest and most successful airline and is growing by leaps and bounds. It's one of the easiest places to start new businesses and has become the preferred location for international companies wanting to have regional offices and headquarters. The economy here is much more similar to the free for all capitalism of 19th century America. And, of course, there's the mentality that if you build it, they will come. I have to say there's truth to it. Dubai built an entire metro system in just a few years from conception to operation. They build new highways and bridges and interchanges as a matter of routine and get them done quickly instead of taking years and years. It's staggering when you think about it. When I fly back to DC or anywhere to the US I'm always shocked to see how mediocre American airports and highways have become. The DC beltway? Hahaha.

As another PP said, the situation of basically slave labor, the confiscation of foreign labor workers' passports, and the laws regarding premarital sex are well documented. These are not exaggerations. They're fact.

The fact that you aren't one of the labor workers or that you have never been sexually assaulted and had to deal with the legal system there doesn't erase those realities. It just means that you haven't had to face it. There are plenty of "resorts" around the world where westerners can go and feel safe and comfortable and be completely oblivious to the reality of the people who do the service-level jobs and also be completely oblivious to the legal system -- simply because they've never had to deal with it.

Who do you think builds all of that infrastructure? Do you believe those labor workers are being treated fairly, have recourse if they are not, and can leave if they choose to do so?

For white wealthy people in the South in the 1800s, things seemed pretty good. That's because they were insulated from some of the uglier aspects of society.

If the situation with what amounts to slave labor (and specifically the confiscation of passports) weren't as well documented as it were, then maybe I'd take more seriously your post. But it is pretty well documented.

Not to mention, it was pretty clear what happened to that European woman when she reported a rape.

As another PP said, yes, the U.S. has higher crime statistics, but I feel like at least there is some legal recourse (and I'm not saying our legal system is perfect).

As for all of the infrastructure, of course they can build things faster and better. The government has complete control. They import cheap labor and confiscate their passports.

Anonymous wrote:I am an expat (former Washingtonian) living in Dubai.

I feel much safer in Dubai than in DC. I can walk anywhere in the entire city at any time of the day and not fear for my life.

It's not a perfect country (some of the claims mentioned on here are wildly exaggerated and even if true, that's how much of the world operates) but there's a lot of respect for women in the UAE. It's not the feminism of the US but attacks and assaults on women are taken very seriously. They even have women only taxis driven by female drivers for those who feel uncomfortable getting into a taxi driven by a male. It's a peculiar, different society despite the veneers of modernity and no accounts from Amnesty or hit pieces in the media will ever make you understand Dubai/UAE unless you've actually lived here.

There are hundreds of thousands of white western women living very happily in the UAE. And hundreds of thousands of women of other nationalities who live a much more open and free life in the UAE than in their home countries (compare Dubai to Saudi or Pakistan or India or much of Africa). Women are very integrated into the professional workforce in the UAE and the Emiratis have been proactive in pushing their own women into prominent roles and jobs.

As I said, I do not claim it's a perfect place. It is not. There are things that dismay me, but it's certainly nowhere as bad as you'd think based on what some posters are claiming and these posters haven't even been to the UAE.

As for what makes Dubai very successful: It's an oasis of stability in a region of chaos. It's the finance, banking, trading, logistics center for the entire Gulf and occupies a strategic location between Europe, Africa and Asia. Emirates is a huge force in Dubai and one of the world's largest and most successful airline and is growing by leaps and bounds. It's one of the easiest places to start new businesses and has become the preferred location for international companies wanting to have regional offices and headquarters. The economy here is much more similar to the free for all capitalism of 19th century America. And, of course, there's the mentality that if you build it, they will come. I have to say there's truth to it. Dubai built an entire metro system in just a few years from conception to operation. They build new highways and bridges and interchanges as a matter of routine and get them done quickly instead of taking years and years. It's staggering when you think about it. When I fly back to DC or anywhere to the US I'm always shocked to see how mediocre American airports and highways have become. The DC beltway? Hahaha.

Thanks, pp. This is really what I was aiming for: an actual explanation. It is obviously very different than most Muslim nations in terms of its stability, progress, financial success and safety.

I am an expat (former Washingtonian) living in Dubai.

I feel much safer in Dubai than in DC. I can walk anywhere in the entire city at any time of the day and not fear for my life.

It's not a perfect country (some of the claims mentioned on here are wildly exaggerated and even if true, that's how much of the world operates) but there's a lot of respect for women in the UAE. It's not the feminism of the US but attacks and assaults on women are taken very seriously. They even have women only taxis driven by female drivers for those who feel uncomfortable getting into a taxi driven by a male. It's a peculiar, different society despite the veneers of modernity and no accounts from Amnesty or hit pieces in the media will ever make you understand Dubai/UAE unless you've actually lived here.

There are hundreds of thousands of white western women living very happily in the UAE. And hundreds of thousands of women of other nationalities who live a much more open and free life in the UAE than in their home countries (compare Dubai to Saudi or Pakistan or India or much of Africa). Women are very integrated into the professional workforce in the UAE and the Emiratis have been proactive in pushing their own women into prominent roles and jobs.

As I said, I do not claim it's a perfect place. It is not. There are things that dismay me, but it's certainly nowhere as bad as you'd think based on what some posters are claiming and these posters haven't even been to the UAE.

As for what makes Dubai very successful: It's an oasis of stability in a region of chaos. It's the finance, banking, trading, logistics center for the entire Gulf and occupies a strategic location between Europe, Africa and Asia. Emirates is a huge force in Dubai and one of the world's largest and most successful airline and is growing by leaps and bounds. It's one of the easiest places to start new businesses and has become the preferred location for international companies wanting to have regional offices and headquarters. The economy here is much more similar to the free for all capitalism of 19th century America. And, of course, there's the mentality that if you build it, they will come. I have to say there's truth to it. Dubai built an entire metro system in just a few years from conception to operation. They build new highways and bridges and interchanges as a matter of routine and get them done quickly instead of taking years and years. It's staggering when you think about it. When I fly back to DC or anywhere to the US I'm always shocked to see how mediocre American airports and highways have become. The DC beltway? Hahaha.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Big airport, trade hub, business hub, tons of real estate speculation, and a tourist destination for a lot of Europeans. It is safe for westerners, not too foreign seeming. But underneath that, there are the problems pps mentioned.

"It is safe for westerners" unless you report being raped. It is not safe for women.

I am white christian woman who lived there several years. I felt much safer in Dubai than in DC.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just to clarify: I wasn't comparing Dubai to the US or the West. Rather, I was comparing it to Muslim nations. How does it stack up to the rest?

In reality it is no different from other Muslim countries. The difference is wealth and a city produced for global level attractiveness and tourism. The wealth is same as Saudi Arabia, but the production of tourism for the sheer glory of over the top wealth is uniquely Dubai and Abu Dhabi.

Go beyond the glitz and glam and it's the same abhorrent treatment of workers and women. Workers stripped of their passports, treated like slave labor, brutalized and raped by their "employers". No rights, no due process, total violation of international law.

Are you saying that as someone who has any innate knowledge of the Emirates, or just venting your own personal beliefs?

Not the pp who wrote this and I've never been there, but the treatment of workers and women is well documented by reliable sources such as Amnesty International. Also, "innate" means inborn. Nobody is born with knowledge of Dubai.

Anonymous wrote:Big airport, trade hub, business hub, tons of real estate speculation, and a tourist destination for a lot of Europeans. It is safe for westerners, not too foreign seeming. But underneath that, there are the problems pps mentioned.

"It is safe for westerners" unless you report being raped. It is not safe for women.

Big airport, trade hub, business hub, tons of real estate speculation, and a tourist destination for a lot of Europeans. It is safe for westerners, not too foreign seeming. But underneath that, there are the problems pps mentioned.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just to clarify: I wasn't comparing Dubai to the US or the West. Rather, I was comparing it to Muslim nations. How does it stack up to the rest?

In reality it is no different from other Muslim countries. The difference is wealth and a city produced for global level attractiveness and tourism. The wealth is same as Saudi Arabia, but the production of tourism for the sheer glory of over the top wealth is uniquely Dubai and Abu Dhabi.

Go beyond the glitz and glam and it's the same abhorrent treatment of workers and women. Workers stripped of their passports, treated like slave labor, brutalized and raped by their "employers". No rights, no due process, total violation of international law.

Are you saying that as someone who has any innate knowledge of the Emirates, or just venting your own personal beliefs?

Anonymous wrote:Just to clarify: I wasn't comparing Dubai to the US or the West. Rather, I was comparing it to Muslim nations. How does it stack up to the rest?

In reality it is no different from other Muslim countries. The difference is wealth and a city produced for global level attractiveness and tourism. The wealth is same as Saudi Arabia, but the production of tourism for the sheer glory of over the top wealth is uniquely Dubai and Abu Dhabi.

Go beyond the glitz and glam and it's the same abhorrent treatment of workers and women. Workers stripped of their passports, treated like slave labor, brutalized and raped by their "employers". No rights, no due process, total violation of international law.

Anonymous wrote:Just to clarify: I wasn't comparing Dubai to the US or the West. Rather, I was comparing it to Muslim nations. How does it stack up to the rest?

I don't think there is much of a comparison. Most of the time, people visit other Muslim countries for cultural and religious reasons. Dubai is basically Disney World for the very wealthy. Nobody goes to Dubai for culture and religion.

Anonymous wrote:Just to clarify: I wasn't comparing Dubai to the US or the West. Rather, I was comparing it to Muslim nations. How does it stack up to the rest?

Oh, ok. The reason for their "success" is that they have a shitload of money per person. Your education, housing, and car are subsidized by the government. In this sense they are just as successful as Saudi Arabia.

The woman who reported the rape was jailed for having sex out of wedlock. Her rapist was also jailed for the same reason. The only way she could go home was to withdraw the charges, which she did, and she and her rapist were freed.

Women have no protections there.

Re: "Plus, 80% of the population is foreign workers. Make trouble, and you just get sent back home."

I thought it was interesting that the tour guides and workers that appeared on the travel show were Indian (and it was an American-produced travel piece).