Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It also not fair that someones whiteness can actually have difference in your success in life over minorities of color. Yes, this still happens, in 2016. How do you suppose we address this situation? Or I guess we don't b/c its too complicated??

So I'm close to 50. I can remember reading about the Bakke case in 8th grade Civics class. How long does affirmative action go on? It used to be a correction for institutional discrimination, but that's been gone for 40 years. Then it became a method for creating diversity. And now it's morphing into a correction for 'white privilege'. Where and when does it end? Because children in school today (my white, male kids) can be discriminated against and it's ok. And they are being indoctrinated with this white privilege stuff to convince them that if they are not racist, then they are the beneficiaries of racism. It's crazy.

Lets get away from the "white privilege" labels for a moment, since you seem to miss the point on it entirely. Tell me: In general, do POC have a fair shot in this society? Are they treated equally? Can the color of ones skin have an impact on ones success in this country? This is really where the crux of AA issue lies. If you believe of the answers to these questions are "yes," then your world view is VERY different from what reality, studies and data show--but at least it helps explain your position. If your answer is "No" or "Sometimes," then AA is still necessary. Pretty cut and dry.

I actually think POC have it easier to be honest. If you're a reasonably talented minority you're golden.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It also not fair that someones whiteness can actually have difference in your success in life over minorities of color. Yes, this still happens, in 2016. How do you suppose we address this situation? Or I guess we don't b/c its too complicated??

So I'm close to 50. I can remember reading about the Bakke case in 8th grade Civics class. How long does affirmative action go on? It used to be a correction for institutional discrimination, but that's been gone for 40 years. Then it became a method for creating diversity. And now it's morphing into a correction for 'white privilege'. Where and when does it end? Because children in school today (my white, male kids) can be discriminated against and it's ok. And they are being indoctrinated with this white privilege stuff to convince them that if they are not racist, then they are the beneficiaries of racism. It's crazy.

Trump will grant your wish for your white, male kids. Hang in there.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jeff has weighed in on the Website Feedback forum. Sound advice to report inappropriate comments.

Unfortunately, the Affirmative Action threads always turn into a cesspool argument so just report anything that deems inappropriate. Jeff will make the call.

Why is it a cesspool? It is a legitimate discussion of it's impact on college admissions.

You must be new to DCUM. Your legitimate discussion will inevitably turn into minority denigration. Seen it too many times.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It also not fair that someones whiteness can actually have difference in your success in life over minorities of color. Yes, this still happens, in 2016. How do you suppose we address this situation? Or I guess we don't b/c its too complicated??

So I'm close to 50. I can remember reading about the Bakke case in 8th grade Civics class. How long does affirmative action go on? It used to be a correction for institutional discrimination, but that's been gone for 40 years. Then it became a method for creating diversity. And now it's morphing into a correction for 'white privilege'. Where and when does it end? Because children in school today (my white, male kids) can be discriminated against and it's ok. And they are being indoctrinated with this white privilege stuff to convince them that if they are not racist, then they are the beneficiaries of racism. It's crazy.

Lets get away from the "white privilege" labels for a moment, since you seem to miss the point on it entirely. Tell me: In general, do POC have a fair shot in this society? Are they treated equally? Can the color of ones skin have an impact on ones success in this country? This is really where the crux of AA issue lies. If you believe of the answers to these questions are "yes," then your world view is VERY different from what reality, studies and data show--but at least it helps explain your position. If your answer is "No" or "Sometimes," then AA is still necessary. Pretty cut and dry.

I think I quite get the point of the white privilege argument. The question is where do you go from there. For 40 years plus we've had affirmative action in schools - what do you tell the white or Asian kid that does not get a spot in a school TODAY? Sorry, we had slavery and Jim Crow well before you or even your grandparents were born, but that means today we gave the last available spot in this school to an African American kid instead of you? That's a formula for a continuation of racial resentment, if not recreating racism. Kids today are so color blind, and then they get to college admissions to find they are being judged by race. They are appalled when they understand that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It also not fair that someones whiteness can actually have difference in your success in life over minorities of color. Yes, this still happens, in 2016. How do you suppose we address this situation? Or I guess we don't b/c its too complicated??

So I'm close to 50. I can remember reading about the Bakke case in 8th grade Civics class. How long does affirmative action go on? It used to be a correction for institutional discrimination, but that's been gone for 40 years. Then it became a method for creating diversity. And now it's morphing into a correction for 'white privilege'. Where and when does it end? Because children in school today (my white, male kids) can be discriminated against and it's ok. And they are being indoctrinated with this white privilege stuff to convince them that if they are not racist, then they are the beneficiaries of racism. It's crazy.

Lets get away from the "white privilege" labels for a moment, since you seem to miss the point on it entirely. Tell me: In general, do POC have a fair shot in this society? Are they treated equally? Can the color of ones skin have an impact on ones success in this country? This is really where the crux of AA issue lies. If you believe of the answers to these questions are "yes," then your world view is VERY different from what reality, studies and data show--but at least it helps explain your position. If your answer is "No" or "Sometimes," then AA is still necessary. Pretty cut and dry.

your questions apply to Asians/Latinos too? Or just blacks?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It also not fair that someones whiteness can actually have difference in your success in life over minorities of color. Yes, this still happens, in 2016. How do you suppose we address this situation? Or I guess we don't b/c its too complicated??

So I'm close to 50. I can remember reading about the Bakke case in 8th grade Civics class. How long does affirmative action go on? It used to be a correction for institutional discrimination, but that's been gone for 40 years. Then it became a method for creating diversity. And now it's morphing into a correction for 'white privilege'. Where and when does it end? Because children in school today (my white, male kids) can be discriminated against and it's ok. And they are being indoctrinated with this white privilege stuff to convince them that if they are not racist, then they are the beneficiaries of racism. It's crazy.

Lets get away from the "white privilege" labels for a moment, since you seem to miss the point on it entirely. Tell me: In general, do POC have a fair shot in this society? Are they treated equally? Can the color of ones skin have an impact on ones success in this country? This is really where the crux of AA issue lies. If you believe of the answers to these questions are "yes," then your world view is VERY different from what reality, studies and data show--but at least it helps explain your position. If your answer is "No" or "Sometimes," then AA is still necessary. Pretty cut and dry.

Anonymous wrote:
It also not fair that someones whiteness can actually have difference in your success in life over minorities of color. Yes, this still happens, in 2016. How do you suppose we address this situation? Or I guess we don't b/c its too complicated??

So I'm close to 50. I can remember reading about the Bakke case in 8th grade Civics class. How long does affirmative action go on? It used to be a correction for institutional discrimination, but that's been gone for 40 years. Then it became a method for creating diversity. And now it's morphing into a correction for 'white privilege'. Where and when does it end? Because children in school today (my white, male kids) can be discriminated against and it's ok. And they are being indoctrinated with this white privilege stuff to convince them that if they are not racist, then they are the beneficiaries of racism. It's crazy.

Anonymous wrote:Affirmative Action has become a simple reduction for people's anxiety about the college admissions process - as if the 4% African American undergraduate population at University of Michigan (lower still when you strip out the athletes attending the school for the sole purpose entertaining the fat-cat alumni on Saturday afternoons) is the reason why junior was denied by the school. It is the scapegoat and the vehicle through which manyl of the frustrations about the remote and seemingly arbitrary nature of the process are expressed. This will only get worse in the current political climate.

I'll admit to not following any of this debate so maybe this has been covered but you know that the actual University (of Michigan) would actually like more flexibility in admissions right?

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]I think Affirmative Action discussions should be moved out of college section. I come to read this Topic are "College" to get and provide information for admissions and college information and it seems like there are those who want to derail many discussions and talk about race and affirmative action. I think they need their own section to do this.[/quote]
Agreed.[/quote]

Disagree[/quote]

The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race - I believe a famous Bethesda resident once said that.[/quote]

Do not dispute your right to your view. Would be nice to have a discussion about colleges without incessant diversions off topic about affirmative action which seems to be agenda driven. [/quote]

It's not DCUM that created the discussion, it is the schools' admissions policies. When your 'hook' is something you were born with (race, gender, legacy status) versus something you have achieved (grades, awards, sports), then it will always offend those that are not born with a hook. Students can work harder, train more, do more volunteer work, etc., but they cannot change their race. To be judged on race, for or against, is really offensive. [/quote]

It also not fair that someones whiteness can actually have difference in your success in life over minorities of color. Yes, this still happens, in 2016. How do you suppose we address this situation? Or I guess we don't b/c its too complicated?

Anonymous wrote:Jeff has weighed in on the Website Feedback forum. Sound advice to report inappropriate comments.

Unfortunately, the Affirmative Action threads always turn into a cesspool argument so just report anything that deems inappropriate. Jeff will make the call.

Why is it a cesspool? It is a legitimate discussion of it's impact on college admissions.

Jeff has weighed in on the Website Feedback forum. Sound advice to report inappropriate comments.

Unfortunately, the Affirmative Action threads always turn into a cesspool argument so just report anything that deems inappropriate. Jeff will make the call.

[quote=Anonymous]
The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race - I believe a famous Bethesda resident once said that.[/quote]

NP here. I typically lurk and virtually never respond to comments in the college section since my kids are way younger than that, but this comment caught my eye.

This is a common mantra of the white anti-AA community. They believe that if you just stop thinking about race, you will automatically create a race-blind society and process. But unfortunately, that is overly simplistic and only panders to the white majority. The truth is that after decades and centuries of racial bias, there is no such thing as "all other things being equal." Attitudes towards race are now inherently biased in favor of the white majority. You do not counter the subconscious biases of hundreds of years in just a decade or two because you tell people to think differently. While I do believe that there is a small minority (maybe 10-15%) of people who really do live a race-blind life, I don't think it is anywhere near a large enough sample to assume race-blind processes and procedures yet. Maybe in my children's lifetime, but definitely won't be in my lifetime. And for the record, I'm Asian and not African American, so I don't have a strong commitment to the black cause, I just see the subconscious racism that is evident all around us.

There have been multiple cases of people doing "blind" testing to see what people's automatic reaction to race is. You can find one here:
[url]https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/user/agg/blindspot/indexrk.htm[/url]
In addition to the expected counting of your answers matching the photo/word, there is also a comparison from the earlier the stage 3-4 tests to the stage 6-7 tests where they see how long it takes to get the answers right. In general most people can handle the Caucasian/positive vs Black/negative associations significantly faster than the Caucasian/negative vs Black/positive associations.

But the issue here is that while many people in decision making situations seem to be color-blind, there are many more that subconsciously do make race-based decisions. You can see from the tests where two equal candidates are submitted for college admissions or job applications and the only difference are names with traditional names vs very ethnic names. The candidates with traditional names get significantly more calls than those with ethnic sounding names.
[url]http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html[/url]

There are many situations where when given a choice, people choose the person/background they are more comfortable with or more closely resembles their own. Since there are signficantly more whites in management and hiring positions, that definitely creates a bias in favor of whites. For many, the subconscious decisions for why they prefer one candidate to another are as critical as the conscious criteria. It's often hard to make people "stop discriminating based on race". It's not nearly as obvious as it sounds.[/quote]

Give every applicant a number and eliminate their names from the process.

Correcting the HTML tags that were disabled.

Anonymous wrote:
The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race - I believe a famous Bethesda resident once said that.

NP here. I typically lurk and virtually never respond to comments in the college section since my kids are way younger than that, but this comment caught my eye.

This is a common mantra of the white anti-AA community. They believe that if you just stop thinking about race, you will automatically create a race-blind society and process. But unfortunately, that is overly simplistic and only panders to the white majority. The truth is that after decades and centuries of racial bias, there is no such thing as "all other things being equal." Attitudes towards race are now inherently biased in favor of the white majority. You do not counter the subconscious biases of hundreds of years in just a decade or two because you tell people to think differently. While I do believe that there is a small minority (maybe 10-15%) of people who really do live a race-blind life, I don't think it is anywhere near a large enough sample to assume race-blind processes and procedures yet. Maybe in my children's lifetime, but definitely won't be in my lifetime. And for the record, I'm Asian and not African American, so I don't have a strong commitment to the black cause, I just see the subconscious racism that is evident all around us.

There have been multiple cases of people doing "blind" testing to see what people's automatic reaction to race is. You can find one here:
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/user/agg/blindspot/indexrk.htm
In addition to the expected counting of your answers matching the photo/word, there is also a comparison from the earlier the stage 3-4 tests to the stage 6-7 tests where they see how long it takes to get the answers right. In general most people can handle the Caucasian/positive vs Black/negative associations significantly faster than the Caucasian/negative vs Black/positive associations.

But the issue here is that while many people in decision making situations seem to be color-blind, there are many more that subconsciously do make race-based decisions. You can see from the tests where two equal candidates are submitted for college admissions or job applications and the only difference are names with traditional names vs very ethnic names. The candidates with traditional names get significantly more calls than those with ethnic sounding names.
http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html

There are many situations where when given a choice, people choose the person/background they are more comfortable with or more closely resembles their own. Since there are signficantly more whites in management and hiring positions, that definitely creates a bias in favor of whites. For many, the subconscious decisions for why they prefer one candidate to another are as critical as the conscious criteria. It's often hard to make people "stop discriminating based on race". It's not nearly as obvious as it sounds.

[quote=Anonymous]
The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race - I believe a famous Bethesda resident once said that.[/quote]

NP here. I typically lurk and virtually never respond to comments in the college section since my kids are way younger than that, but this comment caught my eye.

This is a common mantra of the white anti-AA community. They believe that if you just stop thinking about race, you will automatically create a race-blind society and process. But unfortunately, that is overly simplistic and only panders to the white majority. The truth is that after decades and centuries of racial bias, there is no such thing as "all other things being equal." Attitudes towards race are now inherently biased in favor of the white majority. You do not counter the subconscious biases of hundreds of years in just a decade or two because you tell people to think differently. While I do believe that there is a small minority (maybe 10-15%) of people who really do live a race-blind life, I don't think it is anywhere near a large enough sample to assume race-blind processes and procedures yet. Maybe in my children's lifetime, but definitely won't be in my lifetime. And for the record, I'm Asian and not African American, so I don't have a strong commitment to the black cause, I just see the subconscious racism that is evident all around us.

There have been multiple cases of people doing "blind" testing to see what people's automatic reaction to race is. You can find one here:
[url]https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/user/agg/blindspot/indexrk.htm[/url]
In addition to the expected counting of your answers matching the photo/word, there is also a comparison from the earlier the stage 3-4 tests to the stage 6-7 tests where they see how long it takes to get the answers right. In general most people can handle the Caucasian/positive vs Black/negative associations significantly faster than the Caucasian/negative vs Black/positive associations.

But the issue here is that while many people in decision making situations seem to be color-blind, there are many more that subconsciously do make race-based decisions. You can see from the tests where two equal candidates are submitted for college admissions or job applications and the only difference are names with traditional names vs very ethnic names. The candidates with traditional names get significantly more calls than those with ethnic sounding names.
[url]http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html[/url]

There are many situations where when given a choice, people choose the person/background they are more comfortable with or more closely resembles their own. Since there are signficantly more whites in management and hiring positions, that definitely creates a bias in favor of whites. For many, the subconscious decisions for why they prefer one candidate to another are as critical as the conscious criteria. It's often hard to make people "stop discriminating based on race". It's not nearly as obvious as it sounds.

Anonymous wrote:Affirmative Action has become a simple reduction for people's anxiety about the college admissions process - as if the 4% African American undergraduate population at University of Michigan (lower still when you strip out the athletes attending the school for the sole purpose entertaining the fat-cat alumni on Saturday afternoons) is the reason why junior was denied by the school. It is the scapegoat and the vehicle through which manyl of the frustrations about the remote and seemingly arbitrary nature of the process are expressed. This will only get worse in the current political climate.

+1. Unfortunately, there are those who want that measly 4% too and then some.