Anonymous
Post 01/20/2016 13:56     Subject: Re:What happens when elite schools shift away from test scores, grades, and AP?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately when we take away objective measures like grades and tests scores, these other characteristics become things that correlate more with parental income and opportunities that kids themselves cannot control.


Actually, as a whole, test scores and advanced curriculum are very closely tied to parental incomes. Expensive test prep boosts scores. You need to be able to afford a house in a strong school district with lots of AP classes (most high schools in the country only offer a couple) to have a super high weighted GPA.


They are a lot more objective than extracurriculars. Or learning how to write the right types of college essays.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2016 13:49     Subject: Re:What happens when elite schools shift away from test scores, grades, and AP?
The other truth is that there are just too many kids who are doing it all now. You could fill UVA with top students from NO Virginia now, and it is just getting worse here and everywhere. If you want truly exceptional kids who value learning, not only will sat scores and number of AP classes not get you there, they will leave you with a pool of applicants so huge there is no effective, non-arbitrary way to sort them into admits and nonadmits.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2016 13:38     Subject: Re:What happens when elite schools shift away from test scores, grades, and AP?
Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately when we take away objective measures like grades and tests scores, these other characteristics become things that correlate more with parental income and opportunities that kids themselves cannot control.


Actually, as a whole, test scores and advanced curriculum are very closely tied to parental incomes. Expensive test prep boosts scores. You need to be able to afford a house in a strong school district with lots of AP classes (most high schools in the country only offer a couple) to have a super high weighted GPA.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2016 13:27     Subject: What happens when elite schools shift away from test scores, grades, and AP?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Since when are grades, test scores and academic rigor considered "padding" on a resume?


Since admissions committees realized these things are only a meaningless reflection of White Privilege.


yep! But worse, these aren't engaged interested kids. I don't teach at an elite college but I will tell you my honor students are the absolute worse for valuing what teachers value (intellectual curiosity, the life of the mind, knowledge for knowledge's sake). They will work their butts off for an A, but for no purpose but the A and the next hoop. It is sad. Schools are trying to figure out a way not to enroll these kids (though they themselves have created these kids with their admission criteria). But don't worry, they have no way yet. They may take a deeper look at kids from Waldorf schools or homeschool kids is my guess.


At least these kids are working hard enough to get A's. You live in a fantasy world if you think that lower achieving students are more likely to be intellectually curious.

What I have found is that naturally bright kids are bored to death in today's academic environment because our teachers are not from the top of the academic distribution. If you are in the top 10% of your class, you are way smarter than your teacher, and their idea of "intellectual curiosity" is your idea of boredom. You have teachers who think asking questions equates to intellectual curiosity, but the bright kids aren't engaged because the class is too easy and there is no point in asking questions.


I've learned a lot form people who weren't as smart as me. What's bored them to death is the slog for (ultimately meaningless) gold stars.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2016 13:13     Subject: What happens when elite schools shift away from test scores, grades, and AP?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Since when are grades, test scores and academic rigor considered "padding" on a resume?


Since admissions committees realized these things are only a meaningless reflection of White Privilege.


yep! But worse, these aren't engaged interested kids. I don't teach at an elite college but I will tell you my honor students are the absolute worse for valuing what teachers value (intellectual curiosity, the life of the mind, knowledge for knowledge's sake). They will work their butts off for an A, but for no purpose but the A and the next hoop. It is sad. Schools are trying to figure out a way not to enroll these kids (though they themselves have created these kids with their admission criteria). But don't worry, they have no way yet. They may take a deeper look at kids from Waldorf schools or homeschool kids is my guess.


At least these kids are working hard enough to get A's. You live in a fantasy world if you think that lower achieving students are more likely to be intellectually curious.

What I have found is that naturally bright kids are bored to death in today's academic environment because our teachers are not from the top of the academic distribution. If you are in the top 10% of your class, you are way smarter than your teacher, and their idea of "intellectual curiosity" is your idea of boredom. You have teachers who think asking questions equates to intellectual curiosity, but the bright kids aren't engaged because the class is too easy and there is no point in asking questions.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2016 13:09     Subject: What happens when elite schools shift away from test scores, grades, and AP?
Absolutely true, and some of the brightest, most passionate kids do not do as well in school these days because their form of learning does not correspond to the competition and demands of high school. My DS is an example of this. A well-read, passionate kid with math skills who really struggled in school before knocking the SATs out of the park (no prep), getting into college, and blossoming in a more intellectual environment. The structure of high school stifled rather than nourished his learning curve. And this was one of the top schools in this region.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2016 13:08     Subject: Re:What happens when elite schools shift away from test scores, grades, and AP?
Anonymous wrote:college teacher here. System has created kids who don't care about learning but do care about grades and prizes. These aren't the kids elite colleges want, so they are looking for ways to find kids who care about learning (and they are looking to find smart kids of all ses brackets). But they have yet any way to measure caring about learning and their measure for smarts skews for kids from a certain high ses.


The reality is that in order to be perceived as prestigious, elite schools must continue pumping out ultra successful graduates. Unfortunately a lot of high scorers come from immigrant families that don't have the right connections to boost them to influential jobs, so they get stuck in middle management. Colleges need a politically correct way to accept fewer of these high achieving, stable career kind of kids - ergo, holistic admissions.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2016 13:04     Subject: What happens when elite schools shift away from test scores, grades, and AP?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Since when are grades, test scores and academic rigor considered "padding" on a resume?


Since admissions committees realized these things are only a meaningless reflection of White Privilege.


yep! But worse, these aren't engaged interested kids. I don't teach at an elite college but I will tell you my honor students are the absolute worse for valuing what teachers value (intellectual curiosity, the life of the mind, knowledge for knowledge's sake). They will work their butts off for an A, but for no purpose but the A and the next hoop. It is sad. Schools are trying to figure out a way not to enroll these kids (though they themselves have created these kids with their admission criteria). But don't worry, they have no way yet. They may take a deeper look at kids from Waldorf schools or homeschool kids is my guess.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2016 13:00     Subject: Re:What happens when elite schools shift away from test scores, grades, and AP?
college teacher here. System has created kids who don't care about learning but do care about grades and prizes. These aren't the kids elite colleges want, so they are looking for ways to find kids who care about learning (and they are looking to find smart kids of all ses brackets). But they have yet any way to measure caring about learning and their measure for smarts skews for kids from a certain high ses.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2016 12:59     Subject: What happens when elite schools shift away from test scores, grades, and AP?
Anonymous wrote:Since when are grades, test scores and academic rigor considered "padding" on a resume?


Since admissions committees realized these things are only a meaningless reflection of White Privilege.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2016 12:57     Subject: What happens when elite schools shift away from test scores, grades, and AP?
Anonymous wrote:Getting a job with a soft degree like psychology is a privilege reserved for rich white kids.


That may well be, but universities have many different academic departments and they seek students to fill them all. They are not willing or able to switch all of their resources to STEM departments just because the best scoring applicants may wish to major in those subjects.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2016 12:53     Subject: What happens when elite schools shift away from test scores, grades, and AP?
Getting a job with a soft degree like psychology is a privilege reserved for rich white kids.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2016 12:45     Subject: Re:What happens when elite schools shift away from test scores, grades, and AP?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Perhaps the intent is noble, but it seems largely self-serving, to the extent some of those schools want maximum discretion to describe their admissions policies as holistic and then turn away Asian students.


I see what you mean, but isn't it also possible that colleges want to have successful philosophy, theater, psychology, fine arts, and language and literature departments, etc. in which student success is less correlated with high schoolers' standardized tests? And dare I say, less common choices for Asian Americans?


Do you have any actual evidence for this, or, dare I say, are you simply indulging in casual racism?


Sure. Pointing out a correlation is not racist. Here is data from the census showing among other things that 50% of Asian students' bachelors degrees were in science and engineering compared to 33% of whites. 23% of whites in arts and humanities and 14% of Asians. https://www.census.gov/prod/2012pubs/acs-18.pdf I am NOT saying that a school should assume what any one applicant wants to major in based on race. But I am saying that if they get many fewer Asian applicants than white applicants who want to study psychology, and they have a psychology department they need to fill, they may let in a white student with lower scores who wants to major in psychology instead of an additional Asian student who wants to study engineering, because their engineering department is already full.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2016 12:39     Subject: Re:What happens when elite schools shift away from test scores, grades, and AP?
"Most high scorers won't make it past middle management, so an elite institution wants other characteristics to better predict future accomplishments. "

I have no idea of why anyone would assume the bulk of high scorers are not multi-faceted. At our school the brightest students are the ones that do little to no prep for those high scores. They are also leaders in their communities and socially engaged. Really kids that are blessed on multiple fronts and likely genetically wired for their lives to make a difference. The statement does strike me as prejudicial against racially profiled groups and I doubt actually authored by an Asian American.
Anonymous
Post 01/20/2016 12:33     Subject: Re:What happens when elite schools shift away from test scores, grades, and AP?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Perhaps the intent is noble, but it seems largely self-serving, to the extent some of those schools want maximum discretion to describe their admissions policies as holistic and then turn away Asian students.


It's the 20's and 30's again. Except instead of Jews, it's now asians. The sad thing is, Jews are now in positions of power in academia but have quickly turned a blind eye on this.

I guess phenotype and 'passing' really make those lessons forgotten.


I find the knee jerk reaction from fellow Asian-Americans perplexing. Why the assumption that our children can't be athletes, artists, philosophers, leaders and have genuine interests rather than what their parents read in "Harvard Girl?" Look at the really successful young entrepreneurs in China - they are not all gaokao top scorers. Everyone I know in S. Korea, Taiwan, Japan, and China is appalled by the crushing conformity and pressure put on young people and how it just kills creativity and new ideas. They talk about it as a central cause of the economic and cultural malaise much of Asia has been mired in. Only developing countries need their entire educated class focused on engineering and medicine. No one believes that adult talent is fully predicted by standardized testing or the ability to relentlessly memorize everything. Most high scorers won't make it past middle management, so an elite institution wants other characteristics to better predict future accomplishments.


Unfortunately when we take away objective measures like grades and tests scores, these other characteristics become things that correlate more with parental income and opportunities that kids themselves cannot control.