Anonymous
01/15/2016 10:48
Subject: Re:Emotional Labor - a good read for men AND women
Anonymous wrote:HA!
First year of marriage and I thought it was fun to buy presents for all of my new extended family (my inlaws, all the DH siblings, their spouses and kids, all his cousins) because I was from a very small family, plus newly married! this is fun! We're so cute! awwwww!
Fast forward 15 years and somehow it turned into me being responsible for everything to do with every holiday event: not only all the Xmas plans, decorations, food, presents for our kids and his family but also the birthdays and any other big event. Bought every present my kids every received "from mom and dad" - Xmas was probably so much fun for him cause not only did he get presents but he got to see what all the kids got too cause he had no idea. Every party: organized by me. Every vacation: organized by me.
(No, I was not then and am not now a SAHM, we both worked full time. I was also 100% responsible for all things child - daycare, all shopping/clothes/whatever, doctors appointments, school...)
And so I said no more: I'm not buying for your family anymore. (researching the gifts, wrapping, and then shipping everything). This is for almost 30 people. Enough. It's ridiculous. You want your family to have presents then YOU BUY THEM. Honestly, I was completely out of ideas for gifts and just didn't have the energy.
So what did they get that year from us? [b]Nothing.
Not a single thing.[/b]
And when his parents called him on Xmas day to inquire about the package that they didn't receive - maybe it had been lost in the mail? He had to make up some excuse and had flowers shipped the next day.
His grand solution to the whole thing? He has his secretary do it now -(just for his parents, the rest of the family doesn't get anything) and they get a Harry & David basket every year since. (Order it once, get on their schedule, they'll send it every year for you.)
He still doesn't buy for our kids - neither birthdays or Xmas. I have tried to get him involved. Maybe it's too much work (IT IS! It is a lot of work!) and he'd rather just let me do it.
But no matter how many times I tell him I'm overwhelmed or I need help or I'm so tired... I get the "aw, you can do it, you're *so good at it*, you love shopping..." No, no I don't love shopping. I actually hate shopping and the malls. *bangs head against wall*
And the world didn't stop turning!
This is what I think this comes down to. Some people love to make their lives complicated. They live to create more work for themselves. Obviously, they have to play martyr!
Simplify.
Anonymous
01/15/2016 10:39
Subject: Emotional Labor - a good read for men AND women
Anonymous wrote:This could not be more timely for me. Thank you, OP, for posting this. I've been trying and trying and trying to explain this to DH, who does not get it. I already emailed the .pdf to him (he probably won't read it, will say he doesn't have time cause he's so busy!)
For me, the emotional labor is all the thinking and planning I do that DH completely takes for granted. I've been backing of doing thisf, and the results are a disaster!
For example, right now, there's not enough food in the house for our family of six to eat. I told DH I was not going to do any more meal planning or grocery shopping. He agreed to do it. Well, the kids have started complaining because there's nothing for snacks, nothing for lunches, not enough food for breakfast, etc. etc. I've been sitting back and doing nothing (except cooking, I do most of that). When the kids complain, I say, tell Daddy, he's doing the grocery shopping now. A few days ago we had no dinner. Why? Because DH, who is supposed to do the meal planning (really BASIC meal planning, e.g. take meat out of the freezer for me to cook) forgot to take something out. We had eggs and cereal, which DH fed the children after I complained that he hadn't thought ahead ONE DAY to plan dinner, his job.
If he performed like this at work he'd be fired. Why does he do this at home?
OMG, I am female, and I don't get this. At all. Like... how old are your kids? Are they old enough to scribble their requests on a shopping list for their dad? If not, is it so much "labor" for you to pick up a pen?
Seriously, people. You need to grow up sometime. I feel nothing but pity for these women and their husbands. How do you get through life being so... I don't even know what. Honestly.
I get it that women often do more than their fair share, but I assure you, there are less, much less annoyingly immature ways to go about sharing the burdens of daily living.
Anonymous
01/15/2016 09:50
Subject: Emotional Labor - a good read for men AND women
Anonymous wrote:Being with a woman is sometimes like being with someone that has OCD and the person with OCD getting mad at you because you don't participate in their rituals.
Speaking as a woman who is incredibly far from OCD I think you are doing the classic maneuver of picking one piece of refuting data to counteract the entire point. I also think it misses the point that for many women we - and our families - get penalized for not doing these things *even if WE don't care.*
In terms of providing emotional labor, it can be hard to just 'let it go' because the natural consequence of that often hurts a 3rd party, and if you care about that 3rd party it's hard to let that happen. My DH can be impossible to reach, so my ILs call me. I can, and often do, just punt that back into 'call your son' but there's only so far I'm willing to tow that line because *I love my ILs too.* Same thing happens with the children - do I wish my husband would do more of the work in mentally managing things for them? Of course. But unfortunately the natural consequences from that don't just impact my husband, they impact my kids as well (for example not getting medical care they need in a timely fashion), and I'm not willing to make them pay that price.
I think you also missed the point of the thread (or didn't read it) that their are still costs involved even when we don't play the game. So I can try and force my ILs to deal directly with my husband and punt the calls, but that is still taking time / mental energy out of my day. Obviously not a huge time suck for that one issue, but that is simply one example out of so many and added all together it really adds up.
I also think that the original article was truly talking about emotional labor but that the thread moved on into the broader sphere of roles women typically play, and that muddies the waters. Personally I would split it into 3 related but distinct categories of labor:
1. Emotional labor - maintaining social relationships and providing emotional caring / support
2. Managerial labor - the mental management aspect of running a life and family
3. Domestic labor - the physical grunt work of accomplishing tasks generated from 1 and 2.
Anonymous
01/15/2016 08:27
Subject: Emotional Labor - a good read for men AND women
The book you're actually looking for is "Wife work" by Susan Maushart. Here's a link to a review:
http://www.publishersweekly.com/978-1-58234-202-3
She wrote this a while ago and it's a great explanation of this idea that women do a lot of 'emotional caretaking' that men fail to see -- both of other family members and of the men themselves. Women are still judged for not providing this emotional caretaking (i.e. a bad mother fails to notice that her son is failing math; but no one calls the dad a 'bad dad' if HE fails to notice; a bad mom fails to notice that her teen daughter is being bullied, has an eating disorder, etc. She spends hours 'discussing' with the daughter things like whether she can get a tattoo, get her ears pierced, etc. No one expects the man to do the same thing. When my husband goes grocery shopping, he can't call up that long list of who won't eat blueberry waffles, who will ONLY eat blueberry waffles, who won't eat the yogurt with the things in it, etc. He just buys food. But if I did that, oh boy!)
She says that this explains why married men live longer and married women live less long than single women; why women suffer from higher levels of depression. . .
I read this as the mother of three toddlers with a deployed husband and BOY did it hit home! It was also one heck of a depressing read because she doesn't really provide a solution -- But both spouses should read this book because it lays out the problem so clearly and gives you a lot to discuss.
http://www.publishersweekly.com/978-1-58234-202-3
She wrote this a while ago and it's a great explanation of this idea that women do a lot of 'emotional caretaking' that men fail to see -- both of other family members and of the men themselves. Women are still judged for not providing this emotional caretaking (i.e. a bad mother fails to notice that her son is failing math; but no one calls the dad a 'bad dad' if HE fails to notice; a bad mom fails to notice that her teen daughter is being bullied, has an eating disorder, etc. She spends hours 'discussing' with the daughter things like whether she can get a tattoo, get her ears pierced, etc. No one expects the man to do the same thing. When my husband goes grocery shopping, he can't call up that long list of who won't eat blueberry waffles, who will ONLY eat blueberry waffles, who won't eat the yogurt with the things in it, etc. He just buys food. But if I did that, oh boy!)
She says that this explains why married men live longer and married women live less long than single women; why women suffer from higher levels of depression. . .
I read this as the mother of three toddlers with a deployed husband and BOY did it hit home! It was also one heck of a depressing read because she doesn't really provide a solution -- But both spouses should read this book because it lays out the problem so clearly and gives you a lot to discuss.
Anonymous
01/15/2016 08:11
Subject: Emotional Labor - a good read for men AND women
Being with a woman is sometimes like being with someone that has OCD and the person with OCD getting mad at you because you don't participate in their rituals.
Anonymous
01/15/2016 07:59
Subject: Emotional Labor - a good read for men AND women
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Basically that is a list of things made up by women that just HAVE to be done so they won't be judged by OTHER women. They can't understand why men don't want to do their list and because of that, they have the right to think of themselves as victims.
Here are some tips to help the ladies
1. No one has ever died from sitting on a toilet with a ring around the bowl
2. I cooked dinner and played with the kids. I am going to relax a little. I'm not emptying the dishwasher tonight. Get what you need out of it and I'll empty it tomorrow.
3. The trash isn't being picked up tonight. I will take it to the curb in the morning when I go outside to warm up my car.
4. Yes I am aware there is laundry in the hamper. I will do some of it as I'm watching the playoffs this weekend.
5. I don't care if my dad gets a birthday card. Don't get mad at me because you decided to burden yourself with that chore.
6. Yes I saw the dirt on the kitchen floor. As soon as it doubles in size it will be big enough for me to care enough to sweep it up.
7. I know I left my beer bottle on the end table. I will throw it away when I sit down in the morning because it will be in the way of my coffee cup.
I think no. 5 sums it up for a lot of men. "I would be happy with ordered pizza for every Thanksgiving, so why do you knock yourself out?" They don't necessarily appreciate the importance of relationship-glue rituals and activities.
That assumes they are important. You have to establish that first. If I get together for pizza with my buddies on a regular basis, that is sufficient glue to hold us together. I wouldn't hang out with guys who needed lots of bells and whistles. I don't get to pick my family -- I'd prefer to just stick with the ones who would be content with a pizza. The other members aren't usually worth the effort.
Anonymous
01/15/2016 07:06
Subject: Emotional Labor - a good read for men AND women
Anonymous wrote:Basically that is a list of things made up by women that just HAVE to be done so they won't be judged by OTHER women. They can't understand why men don't want to do their list and because of that, they have the right to think of themselves as victims.
Here are some tips to help the ladies
1. No one has ever died from sitting on a toilet with a ring around the bowl
2. I cooked dinner and played with the kids. I am going to relax a little. I'm not emptying the dishwasher tonight. Get what you need out of it and I'll empty it tomorrow.
3. The trash isn't being picked up tonight. I will take it to the curb in the morning when I go outside to warm up my car.
4. Yes I am aware there is laundry in the hamper. I will do some of it as I'm watching the playoffs this weekend.
5. I don't care if my dad gets a birthday card. Don't get mad at me because you decided to burden yourself with that chore.
6. Yes I saw the dirt on the kitchen floor. As soon as it doubles in size it will be big enough for me to care enough to sweep it up.
7. I know I left my beer bottle on the end table. I will throw it away when I sit down in the morning because it will be in the way of my coffee cup.
I think no. 5 sums it up for a lot of men. "I would be happy with ordered pizza for every Thanksgiving, so why do you knock yourself out?" They don't necessarily appreciate the importance of relationship-glue rituals and activities.
Anonymous
01/14/2016 19:44
Subject: Re:Emotional Labor - a good read for men AND women
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:A woman here, and this was an interesting read. I think there is a lot of truth here. However, I have a visceral reaction to anything that just completely categorizes how women think vs how men think. I can relate to some things said in the thread, but not others - I don't think I am a "stereotypical" woman, whatever that means.
Couldn't this be summed up by saying that it should be important to everyone to be emotionally supportive of your family and friends and spouses, to maintain and nurture those relationships? And that in many cases, it's often the females who take on more of this role? But isn't this like any division of roles between two partners - you communicate and you come to an understanding of what your roles are, and if something is not working, you communicate some more and come up with a better solution together, right?
I think that is exactly the point of it alll - that Emotional Labor shouldn't be done by JUST one person in a relationship - be they man or woman. That EVERYONE needs to do it.
Hell - business people would benefit greatly if they took the time and effort to pay attention to their clients and do a little "emotional labor" - you hear about that certain salesman who knows all the kids of all his clients and asks about them and how they are doing in college - it takes WORK to keep up that information but the person does it because he/she knows 1/it is appreciated and 2/it is good for his/her business to have a relationship with clients.
My take on all of it - no person should be expected to do anything under the assumption that their gender is "better at it". I am FUCKING NOT BETTER AT LAUNDRY. No one wants to clean toilets. No one wants to fold clothes. Making doc appointments, taking kids to their events, being the person on call - these things and all the other examples should be shared duties. A wife should not automatically get burdened with all the chores and child rearing because she is female - but it's true. Meet a woman that doesn't like kids and society goes "ew, whats wrong with her" but meet a man who doesn't want kids and nobody cares.
Its a double standard. ME? I would LOVE a wife that does everything I do. Come home from work and do nothing the rest of the night while I'm fed a home cooked meal and someone else takes care of the house and the kids? SIGN ME UP! (that's the deal my husband has had for a long time due to various things - but 4 years ago I went back to work full time, am now the major breadwinner and provide all the benefits for the family, and yet all of the other roles have not changed at all. Believe me, I have tried. Exhausted? I'm worn out. Yes, we're in counseling, 9 months and so far no progress.)
I love you!
Anonymous
01/14/2016 19:02
Subject: Emotional Labor - a good read for men AND women
Just sent this to my book club and we're going to discuss next week. (and by my book club I mean article/podcast/drinking club)
Great catch, thanks for sharing.
Great catch, thanks for sharing.
Anonymous
01/14/2016 19:00
Subject: Emotional Labor - a good read for men AND women
ha. BEER-and-testosterone underbelly.
Anonymous
01/14/2016 18:59
Subject: Emotional Labor - a good read for men AND women
It's funny because although the responses from men here are infuriatingly dense, this is in some ways a more satisfactory conversation than could be had at MetaFilter because those comments would be deleted as trollish. So at least on DCUM you see what the seamy bear-and-testosterone underbelly of mannishness is actually thinking; you're not protected from it.
Anonymous
01/14/2016 18:48
Subject: Emotional Labor - a good read for men AND women
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Looks like a lot of dumb shit that men don't and never will care much about and women will never understand why men don't care about it.
"Why do I have to remember everyone's birthday"?
News flash: You don't! Women place that burden on themselves and then get pissed if the man doesn't help. Men don't give a shit if Aunt Sally gets a birthday card. They never will. If you want her to have a card do it because you want to not because YOU think it has to be done. It doesn't.
Men and women are different. Deal with it or marry a woman
Honey! The divorce papers are here! Please come sign them!
Will that stop the nagging? And I never have to see your fat ass again! Signed!
Now you have to pay for sex. And do your own laundry.
How much do you charge for both? Do you promise to leave as soon as we are finished?
Anonymous
01/14/2016 18:46
Subject: Emotional Labor - a good read for men AND women
Basically that is a list of things made up by women that just HAVE to be done so they won't be judged by OTHER women. They can't understand why men don't want to do their list and because of that, they have the right to think of themselves as victims.
Here are some tips to help the ladies
1. No one has ever died from sitting on a toilet with a ring around the bowl
2. I cooked dinner and played with the kids. I am going to relax a little. I'm not emptying the dishwasher tonight. Get what you need out of it and I'll empty it tomorrow.
3. The trash isn't being picked up tonight. I will take it to the curb in the morning when I go outside to warm up my car.
4. Yes I am aware there is laundry in the hamper. I will do some of it as I'm watching the playoffs this weekend.
5. I don't care if my dad gets a birthday card. Don't get mad at me because you decided to burden yourself with that chore.
6. Yes I saw the dirt on the kitchen floor. As soon as it doubles in size it will be big enough for me to care enough to sweep it up.
7. I know I left my beer bottle on the end table. I will throw it away when I sit down in the morning because it will be in the way of my coffee cup.
Here are some tips to help the ladies
1. No one has ever died from sitting on a toilet with a ring around the bowl
2. I cooked dinner and played with the kids. I am going to relax a little. I'm not emptying the dishwasher tonight. Get what you need out of it and I'll empty it tomorrow.
3. The trash isn't being picked up tonight. I will take it to the curb in the morning when I go outside to warm up my car.
4. Yes I am aware there is laundry in the hamper. I will do some of it as I'm watching the playoffs this weekend.
5. I don't care if my dad gets a birthday card. Don't get mad at me because you decided to burden yourself with that chore.
6. Yes I saw the dirt on the kitchen floor. As soon as it doubles in size it will be big enough for me to care enough to sweep it up.
7. I know I left my beer bottle on the end table. I will throw it away when I sit down in the morning because it will be in the way of my coffee cup.
Anonymous
01/14/2016 18:37
Subject: Emotional Labor - a good read for men AND women
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Looks like a lot of dumb shit that men don't and never will care much about and women will never understand why men don't care about it.
"Why do I have to remember everyone's birthday"?
News flash: You don't! Women place that burden on themselves and then get pissed if the man doesn't help. Men don't give a shit if Aunt Sally gets a birthday card. They never will. If you want her to have a card do it because you want to not because YOU think it has to be done. It doesn't.
Men and women are different. Deal with it or marry a woman
Honey! The divorce papers are here! Please come sign them!
Will that stop the nagging? And I never have to see your fat ass again! Signed!
Now you have to pay for sex. And do your own laundry.
Anonymous
01/14/2016 18:34
Subject: Emotional Labor - a good read for men AND women
This could not be more timely for me. Thank you, OP, for posting this. I've been trying and trying and trying to explain this to DH, who does not get it. I already emailed the .pdf to him (he probably won't read it, will say he doesn't have time cause he's so busy!)
For me, the emotional labor is all the thinking and planning I do that DH completely takes for granted. I've been backing of doing thisf, and the results are a disaster!
For example, right now, there's not enough food in the house for our family of six to eat. I told DH I was not going to do any more meal planning or grocery shopping. He agreed to do it. Well, the kids have started complaining because there's nothing for snacks, nothing for lunches, not enough food for breakfast, etc. etc. I've been sitting back and doing nothing (except cooking, I do most of that). When the kids complain, I say, tell Daddy, he's doing the grocery shopping now. A few days ago we had no dinner. Why? Because DH, who is supposed to do the meal planning (really BASIC meal planning, e.g. take meat out of the freezer for me to cook) forgot to take something out. We had eggs and cereal, which DH fed the children after I complained that he hadn't thought ahead ONE DAY to plan dinner, his job.
If he performed like this at work he'd be fired. Why does he do this at home?
For me, the emotional labor is all the thinking and planning I do that DH completely takes for granted. I've been backing of doing thisf, and the results are a disaster!
For example, right now, there's not enough food in the house for our family of six to eat. I told DH I was not going to do any more meal planning or grocery shopping. He agreed to do it. Well, the kids have started complaining because there's nothing for snacks, nothing for lunches, not enough food for breakfast, etc. etc. I've been sitting back and doing nothing (except cooking, I do most of that). When the kids complain, I say, tell Daddy, he's doing the grocery shopping now. A few days ago we had no dinner. Why? Because DH, who is supposed to do the meal planning (really BASIC meal planning, e.g. take meat out of the freezer for me to cook) forgot to take something out. We had eggs and cereal, which DH fed the children after I complained that he hadn't thought ahead ONE DAY to plan dinner, his job.
If he performed like this at work he'd be fired. Why does he do this at home?