Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:That doesn't really make sense though. If you need God to exist to create the inverse out of nothing, what created God?
I grew up catholic too, even married someone else who grew up catholic, baptized our kids, but we are actually agnostic. Religion seems like a belief system created out of fear and certainty, because people didn't really understand science or the laws of physics or astronomy at the time. And people will always look for something to add meaning and deep dad to their lives. But it just seems like a lot of very wishful thinking when the simplest, most logical answer is that the universe (not some mysterious superpower) created itself, and that dead people are just dead and don't go to a special sky farm with angels and clouds.
God (at least the God of Christianity) always was and always will be. That cannot be understood but has to be accepted. That's what makes Him God.
Part of your problem, OP, is that you are trying to understand this with the limitations of the human mind in place. That is why I find Christianity so appealing. It is literally God coming to earth, with historical evidence that it happened. He came to us, in a form that we can understand.
How do you square that with the knowledge that there are billions and billions of stars and planets and surely other life on planets? When I became aware of that, it really made me think that our ideas of religion are very "me-centric" or "earth-centric" -- which just seems too convenient given the vastness of space and time. What are the chances that God just happened to come to THIS planet a few short years ago (short in the history of time)? And came here to save US! -- how lucky are we? Or maybe it's all just something we made up to make ourselves feel better along the way.... which seems more likely.
Religion seems so comforting and personal -- it naturally is going to arise in a population. But, given the science, I just can't go with the "we're special" ideas anymore.
And how do you know that God/ Jesus did not visit other planets, assuming that there is life there?
The evidence is pretty compelling that God / Jesus did visit other planets. Or at least as compelling as the evidence he / they visited the Earth.
Well, okay, no evidence.
There is much evidence that God did come to earth in the person of Jesus Christ.
I'm going to stop there, because I have a strong sense that this is the same tired, bitter atheist who makes his/ her way to this topic every time it appears on DCUM. We've heard from you before, we know your views and that you are not interested in changing them. Until you open your mind, you really should find a new hobby.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:That doesn't really make sense though. If you need God to exist to create the inverse out of nothing, what created God?
I grew up catholic too, even married someone else who grew up catholic, baptized our kids, but we are actually agnostic. Religion seems like a belief system created out of fear and certainty, because people didn't really understand science or the laws of physics or astronomy at the time. And people will always look for something to add meaning and deep dad to their lives. But it just seems like a lot of very wishful thinking when the simplest, most logical answer is that the universe (not some mysterious superpower) created itself, and that dead people are just dead and don't go to a special sky farm with angels and clouds.
God (at least the God of Christianity) always was and always will be. That cannot be understood but has to be accepted. That's what makes Him God.
Part of your problem, OP, is that you are trying to understand this with the limitations of the human mind in place. That is why I find Christianity so appealing. It is literally God coming to earth, with historical evidence that it happened. He came to us, in a form that we can understand.
How do you square that with the knowledge that there are billions and billions of stars and planets and surely other life on planets? When I became aware of that, it really made me think that our ideas of religion are very "me-centric" or "earth-centric" -- which just seems too convenient given the vastness of space and time. What are the chances that God just happened to come to THIS planet a few short years ago (short in the history of time)? And came here to save US! -- how lucky are we? Or maybe it's all just something we made up to make ourselves feel better along the way.... which seems more likely.
Religion seems so comforting and personal -- it naturally is going to arise in a population. But, given the science, I just can't go with the "we're special" ideas anymore.
And how do you know that God/ Jesus did not visit other planets, assuming that there is life there?
The evidence is pretty compelling that God / Jesus did visit other planets. Or at least as compelling as the evidence he / they visited the Earth.
Well, okay, no evidence.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:That doesn't really make sense though. If you need God to exist to create the inverse out of nothing, what created God?
I grew up catholic too, even married someone else who grew up catholic, baptized our kids, but we are actually agnostic. Religion seems like a belief system created out of fear and certainty, because people didn't really understand science or the laws of physics or astronomy at the time. And people will always look for something to add meaning and deep dad to their lives. But it just seems like a lot of very wishful thinking when the simplest, most logical answer is that the universe (not some mysterious superpower) created itself, and that dead people are just dead and don't go to a special sky farm with angels and clouds.
God (at least the God of Christianity) always was and always will be. That cannot be understood but has to be accepted. That's what makes Him God.
Part of your problem, OP, is that you are trying to understand this with the limitations of the human mind in place. That is why I find Christianity so appealing. It is literally God coming to earth, with historical evidence that it happened. He came to us, in a form that we can understand.
How do you square that with the knowledge that there are billions and billions of stars and planets and surely other life on planets? When I became aware of that, it really made me think that our ideas of religion are very "me-centric" or "earth-centric" -- which just seems too convenient given the vastness of space and time. What are the chances that God just happened to come to THIS planet a few short years ago (short in the history of time)? And came here to save US! -- how lucky are we? Or maybe it's all just something we made up to make ourselves feel better along the way.... which seems more likely.
Religion seems so comforting and personal -- it naturally is going to arise in a population. But, given the science, I just can't go with the "we're special" ideas anymore.
And how do you know that God/ Jesus did not visit other planets, assuming that there is life there?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:That doesn't really make sense though. If you need God to exist to create the inverse out of nothing, what created God?
I grew up catholic too, even married someone else who grew up catholic, baptized our kids, but we are actually agnostic. Religion seems like a belief system created out of fear and certainty, because people didn't really understand science or the laws of physics or astronomy at the time. And people will always look for something to add meaning and deep dad to their lives. But it just seems like a lot of very wishful thinking when the simplest, most logical answer is that the universe (not some mysterious superpower) created itself, and that dead people are just dead and don't go to a special sky farm with angels and clouds.
God (at least the God of Christianity) always was and always will be. That cannot be understood but has to be accepted. That's what makes Him God.
Part of your problem, OP, is that you are trying to understand this with the limitations of the human mind in place. That is why I find Christianity so appealing. It is literally God coming to earth, with historical evidence that it happened. He came to us, in a form that we can understand.
Why can't the universe "always was and always will be"? Hiding behind our feeble human brains and saying that you simply have to have faith is not a good enough reason to believe in god.
OP, I don't believe simply because there is zero evidence to support his existence. And there's actually quite a lot of evidence to support the theory that man created god for a various good and bad reasons.
Because we know that it was not. Big Bang Theory or however it got here, science knows that the universe was "formed."
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:That doesn't really make sense though. If you need God to exist to create the inverse out of nothing, what created God?
I grew up catholic too, even married someone else who grew up catholic, baptized our kids, but we are actually agnostic. Religion seems like a belief system created out of fear and certainty, because people didn't really understand science or the laws of physics or astronomy at the time. And people will always look for something to add meaning and deep dad to their lives. But it just seems like a lot of very wishful thinking when the simplest, most logical answer is that the universe (not some mysterious superpower) created itself, and that dead people are just dead and don't go to a special sky farm with angels and clouds.
God (at least the God of Christianity) always was and always will be. That cannot be understood but has to be accepted. That's what makes Him God.
Part of your problem, OP, is that you are trying to understand this with the limitations of the human mind in place. That is why I find Christianity so appealing. It is literally God coming to earth, with historical evidence that it happened. He came to us, in a form that we can understand.
How do you square that with the knowledge that there are billions and billions of stars and planets and surely other life on planets? When I became aware of that, it really made me think that our ideas of religion are very "me-centric" or "earth-centric" -- which just seems too convenient given the vastness of space and time. What are the chances that God just happened to come to THIS planet a few short years ago (short in the history of time)? And came here to save US! -- how lucky are we? Or maybe it's all just something we made up to make ourselves feel better along the way.... which seems more likely.
Religion seems so comforting and personal -- it naturally is going to arise in a population. But, given the science, I just can't go with the "we're special" ideas anymore.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:That doesn't really make sense though. If you need God to exist to create the inverse out of nothing, what created God?
I grew up catholic too, even married someone else who grew up catholic, baptized our kids, but we are actually agnostic. Religion seems like a belief system created out of fear and certainty, because people didn't really understand science or the laws of physics or astronomy at the time. And people will always look for something to add meaning and deep dad to their lives. But it just seems like a lot of very wishful thinking when the simplest, most logical answer is that the universe (not some mysterious superpower) created itself, and that dead people are just dead and don't go to a special sky farm with angels and clouds.
God (at least the God of Christianity) always was and always will be. That cannot be understood but has to be accepted. That's what makes Him God.
Part of your problem, OP, is that you are trying to understand this with the limitations of the human mind in place. That is why I find Christianity so appealing. It is literally God coming to earth, with historical evidence that it happened. He came to us, in a form that we can understand.
Why can't the universe "always was and always will be"? Hiding behind our feeble human brains and saying that you simply have to have faith is not a good enough reason to believe in god.
OP, I don't believe simply because there is zero evidence to support his existence. And there's actually quite a lot of evidence to support the theory that man created god for a various good and bad reasons.
Anonymous wrote:because I don't believe there is one.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Ok, so I consider myself an intelligent human and a very liberal one at that. I was raised Catholic, but never agreed with the archaic ways of the church. I have not gone to mass since I was out of high school except to baptize my children because my parents and in-laws would have suffered nervous breakdowns had I not done so. My children will not go to mass or do their first communions because my views differ so much from the Catholic church. BUT, I am a spiritual person, and I do believe in a higher being. The reason I have to believe is because my mind cannot understand the concept that something comes out of nothing. So for the universe and life to exist, there must have been something always there to kick the processes into motion. I hope I'm explaining myself so it's clear. This question is just out of curiosity, I have zero judgment for hardcore churchgoers or for Atheists. I'm just curious how Atheists rationalize existance of a planet, an asteroid or a life form without the existence of something prior. Thank you!
There are theories and hypothesis around the origin of our universe, we don't know which one is true, which one is close to the truth, or if none are true at all. Atheists are okay with not knowing. Just because we don't know with a reasonable degree of certainty the answer to something, doesn't mean we have to then assume that there is a supernatural explanation.
As for something out of nothing, the current scientific understanding is that the universe did indeed come from nothing. In quantum physics, something comes from nothing all the time. On a macro scale, the net energy of the universe has been calculated to be 0. Think about this result - the natural human assumption is that the universe with all the matter it contains, has a net positive energy. Yet observations, experiments, and calculations have shown this to be false. The net energy of the universe is 0. This makes it entirely possible, that the universe came from nothing, and we are so far only observing the observable part. None of this is proof positive that the universe came from nothing, but it is still far far more than evidence in support of a supernatural creator.
Hi, this is OP. Thank you, you made me wish I had had more interest in physics. I sound like a need to read a few books on the subject.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:That doesn't really make sense though. If you need God to exist to create the inverse out of nothing, what created God?
I grew up catholic too, even married someone else who grew up catholic, baptized our kids, but we are actually agnostic. Religion seems like a belief system created out of fear and certainty, because people didn't really understand science or the laws of physics or astronomy at the time. And people will always look for something to add meaning and deep dad to their lives. But it just seems like a lot of very wishful thinking when the simplest, most logical answer is that the universe (not some mysterious superpower) created itself, and that dead people are just dead and don't go to a special sky farm with angels and clouds.
God (at least the God of Christianity) always was and always will be. That cannot be understood but has to be accepted. That's what makes Him God.
Part of your problem, OP, is that you are trying to understand this with the limitations of the human mind in place. That is why I find Christianity so appealing. It is literally God coming to earth, with historical evidence that it happened. He came to us, in a form that we can understand.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:That doesn't really make sense though. If you need God to exist to create the inverse out of nothing, what created God?
I grew up catholic too, even married someone else who grew up catholic, baptized our kids, but we are actually agnostic. Religion seems like a belief system created out of fear and certainty, because people didn't really understand science or the laws of physics or astronomy at the time. And people will always look for something to add meaning and deep dad to their lives. But it just seems like a lot of very wishful thinking when the simplest, most logical answer is that the universe (not some mysterious superpower) created itself, and that dead people are just dead and don't go to a special sky farm with angels and clouds.
God (at least the God of Christianity) always was and always will be. That cannot be understood but has to be accepted. That's what makes Him God.
Part of your problem, OP, is that you are trying to understand this with the limitations of the human mind in place. That is why I find Christianity so appealing. It is literally God coming to earth, with historical evidence that it happened. He came to us, in a form that we can understand.
Anonymous wrote:Ok, so I consider myself an intelligent human and a very liberal one at that. I was raised Catholic, but never agreed with the archaic ways of the church. I have not gone to mass since I was out of high school except to baptize my children because my parents and in-laws would have suffered nervous breakdowns had I not done so. My children will not go to mass or do their first communions because my views differ so much from the Catholic church. BUT, I am a spiritual person, and I do believe in a higher being. The reason I have to believe is because my mind cannot understand the concept that something comes out of nothing. So for the universe and life to exist, there must have been something always there to kick the processes into motion. I hope I'm explaining myself so it's clear. This question is just out of curiosity, I have zero judgment for hardcore churchgoers or for Atheists. I'm just curious how Atheists rationalize existance of a planet, an asteroid or a life form without the existence of something prior. Thank you!
Anonymous wrote:Ok, so I consider myself an intelligent human and a very liberal one at that. I was raised Catholic, but never agreed with the archaic ways of the church. I have not gone to mass since I was out of high school except to baptize my children because my parents and in-laws would have suffered nervous breakdowns had I not done so. My children will not go to mass or do their first communions because my views differ so much from the Catholic church. BUT, I am a spiritual person, and I do believe in a higher being. The reason I have to believe is because my mind cannot understand the concept that something comes out of nothing. So for the universe and life to exist, there must have been something always there to kick the processes into motion. I hope I'm explaining myself so it's clear. This question is just out of curiosity, I have zero judgment for hardcore churchgoers or for Atheists. I'm just curious how Atheists rationalize existance of a planet, an asteroid or a life form without the existence of something prior. Thank you!
Anonymous wrote:Ok, so I consider myself an intelligent human and a very liberal one at that. I was raised Catholic, but never agreed with the archaic ways of the church. I have not gone to mass since I was out of high school except to baptize my children because my parents and in-laws would have suffered nervous breakdowns had I not done so. My children will not go to mass or do their first communions because my views differ so much from the Catholic church. BUT, I am a spiritual person, and I do believe in a higher being. The reason I have to believe is because my mind cannot understand the concept that something comes out of nothing. So for the universe and life to exist, there must have been something always there to kick the processes into motion. I hope I'm explaining myself so it's clear. This question is just out of curiosity, I have zero judgment for hardcore churchgoers or for Atheists. I'm just curious how Atheists rationalize existance of a planet, an asteroid or a life form without the existence of something prior. Thank you!
Anonymous wrote:It seems evident to me that this human desire to ascribe agency to something like the origin of the universe is just the result of evolutionarily-induced limitations in our thinking. It is childish to believe in God. I don't understand how any rational person can find it even slightly convincing.